Kuchiki Rukia vs Matsumoto Rangiku

[Jackk]

-Who dodged Rukia's Hado 33 at point blank? I don't remember seeing this. And I certainly don't see Rangiku dodging that at point blank either...

-Rangiku's little ash tornado has no actual feats honestly; how much it can really hurt you is entirely speculation. Rangiku comments on the thing's cutting ability; however, Rukia also mentions that anything that lies within the circle of her first dance has from that moment on...sealed its mortal fate, and we actually see her literally turning an arrancar into dust. Now, I certainly don't think that Rukia's claim will always hold true; I don't think that she can destroy any opponent like that. Likewise, Rangiku may talk about her tornado slicing the arrancars all she wants in order to scare them, but she never even connected with that little ash tornado.... so again, it has virtually no actual feats. And we know for a fact that her scattered ash will do absolutely zero damage unless Rangiku swings her hilt and even then... we never actually saw anything very devastating from it. Heck Rangiku's ash was very easily deflected by a Bala, and balas are even weaker than ceros. Based on actual feats, I think Rukia is more versatile and she has quite a few options that would lead her to victory against Rangiku; provided that Rukia plays her cards right.

-Rukia's second dance is incredibly obvious and takes a bit of time? Funny how she even got Grimmjow with it. Yes, she threw ice at him from a distance freezing his arm and then used her second dance;however, she still got Grimmjow with it. I can't see Rangiku having better reaction and reflexes than the 6th Espada, to say the least. Besides, Rukia has several abilities under her belt that she can, at least, use as distractions against Rangiku, so yeah...

[Random101]

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...6/page010.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...6/page011.html

Point blank shot sidesteped (You can see the distance he moves isn't that large thanks to afterimage mind). Range isn't that wide compared to a cero, let alone the three that it took to bust out of the tornado. Mind, the same spell will likely be adequete to disperse the simple cloud she sent at Apachi in the case I mentioned previously, both are basically the same scope (Albeit the bala is far faster to fire and there is a slight warning time on the spell, though not anywhere near as bad as if chants are required, that may give Matsumoto time to move it away), but it's a hard sell to say that it'll bust her out of the tornado anywhere near as easily as three massive cero.

Further she got Grimmjaw thanks to a surprise attack she apparently charged offscreen and managing to seal his arm and leg, and as shown by the time it took for him to break out of her second attack, it takes him a little bit to actually bust out of something like that. Duh, she's not getting Grimmjaw straight up with said attack. Hence why she didn't here. Element of surprise was key, and Grimmjaw was busy murderizing Ichigo.

Granted if she manages to get Matsumoto she's having an easier time than this case... problem is getting Matsumoto by surprise with it is not going to be easy in an actual one on one fight. Again, Matsumoto managed to dodge three cero despite low visibility and general short chargeup times with rather simple ease (Granted hard to say between cero and Rukia's attacks which are faster though, both are relatively short in all honesty). Mind Rukia does definitely have the tools to win, it's just that her tools aren't as easy to use as they sound on paper if the opponent is paying attention, mainly due to the fact that all of them take much more setup to move than the ash by comparison.

Edit: Also why are you arguing an embellishment in comparison to a simple statement of fact? Seriously. One states simply that touching the ash gets you minced. Simple, to the point, no other way to take that or argue it. The other goes on about some crap about sealing your mortal fate. The hell does that mean?

Basically my point is Matsumoto is more of a warrior, quick hard to see coming attacks with a nice scope and range that are also quite damaging and being in general faster in all regards with good enough reflexes to dodge larger scale attacks, while Rukia is a caster, more powerful attacks at the cost of requiring some setup to actually get off that can give a lot of warning time relatively speaking, particularly after the other person has seen it at least once. Neither is particularly a pushover in this case to say the least, hell some well timed moves from Rukia could end it pretty fast if she plays her cards right, but cast times can be a complete bitch one on one.

[Jackk]

-Ok, Espada #9 who should be above Rangiku in terms of skill, speed, power etc. and who also had pretty good knowledge regarding Rukia's fighting style...managed to dodge that; I really don't see Rangiku doing the same.

-Nothing was ever mentioned about Rukia taking some significant time to charge that ice shot she first threw at grimmjow. Considering the small scale of that ice tech, I think that it was a rather quick move. Yes, Grimmjow wasn't expecting it, but that's not my point. Besides, I think that if it was really so extremely slow...Grimmjow should have easily detected the attack coming his way and should have been able to dodge the thing. In any case, I can certainly see ways for Rukia to hit Rangiku with her ice.

-Harribel's 3 fraccions shot a combined cero... it's not as if they shot 3 separate ceros from different angles/directions and then Rangiku dodged all 3 separately lol... That cero that was formed by the 3 of them was focused and aimed at one direction (straight towards Rengiku), there was a significant charged up time (heck Rangiku even saw them charging the thing from the distance; she saw the thing coming), was shot from a significant distance, went through Haineko's ash tornado, and then Rangiku barely dodged it, seriously....

-I don't find Haineko's ash very impressive. It hasn't shown anything devastating. The scattered ash is literally armless until Rangiku swings her hilt, and even then... a simple Bala can deflect the ash...thus I think that Rukia can do something similar with her ice and/or her Sōkatsuis. Further, Rangiku's little ash tornado has virtually no actual feats in terms of actually hurting their opponents; we've never seen it hit anybody of note. Heck we've never seen that little ash tornado hitting anything at all. Mind I'm not claiming that Rukia will attempt to tank the thing, but the the little ash tornado's destructive ability is certainly questionable, to say the least. Besides, Rukia can keep her distance; she's not going to rush in like an idiot.... Rukia has pretty decent ranged attacks. Not to mention the fact that Haineko's little ash tornado has no super high speed feats either; I'm not saying it's super slow either, but the extent of its speed is certainly questionable as well.

-As for Rukia's statement after using her first dance, she states that anything that lies within the circle of her first dance has from that moment on...sealed its fate. What could that mean? I think that it's obvious that she's talking about it ending her opponent's life; the fact that we then even see the arrancar turn into dust as Rukia is saying that should have made it clear. You're free to still think otherwise, but don't expect to be able to convince me as the meaning of that scene if very clear to me already. Nevertheless, as I stated in my previous post, I certainly don't believe that Rukia could do the same to every opponent. Anyway, it should be clear that the point I was making is that Haineko's little tornado has never actually hit anybody so we cannot say for certain how much damage it can really do. Again, Rangiku may talk about her tornado slicing the arrancars all she wants in order to scare them, but she never even connected with that little ash tornado. She could have also been underestimating those arrancars for all we know. I could even name quite a few cases where different Bleach fighters thought that their attack was going to be effective against their enemies...only to then realize that it did less than they thought it would. Therefore, the destructive capabilities of Haineko's little ash tornado are certainly questionable in my book.

-Really, I think you're taking Rangiku's words way too seriously and literally. Rangiku states that her spinning ash will mince whatever it touches. And to "mince" is to cut or chop into very small pieces. How can you possibly believe that that thing can literally chop into very small pieces anything it touches; that has to be one of the most devastating moves in Bleach if that's the case, to say the least. I mean, do you think that captains would be chopped into very small pieces if they get hit by that little ash tornado? I find that ridiculous, but that would fall under Rangiku's words since she claims that it will mince whatever it touches. Yeah right. Byakuya's Senbonzakura can't even mince Ganju, and Senbonzakura Kageyoshi didn't mince Renji either. But I guess Haineko's shikai is superior....

If you still really can't see why I believe that Rangiku's statement about her little ash tornado being capable of chopping into very small pieces whatever it touches is questionable, specially considering the fact that we've never even seen the thing actually hitting something... then I don't know what else to tell you, honestly.

[Takahashi]

-Ok, Espada #9 who should be above Rangiku in terms of skill, speed, power etc. and who also had pretty good knowledge regarding Rukia's fighting style...managed to dodge that; I really don't see Rangiku doing the same.

I don't agree with most of what you said, but this topic doesn't interest me enough to get into a big discussion. That being said, I don't have a whole lot of arguments in defense anyway

I do have a problem with the above though ^

While Aaroniero knew about Rukia, Rukia also knew everything about Kaien's style. Because he died by her, he never had the chance to learn anything new. So while you can say he had knowledge of her, the opposite is also true, so I don't see any clear advantage for either in that regard.

Also, Rukia got completely WTFBBQPWNED through the entire fight. I recently read it again, and I seemed to remember her holding her own, but no. She was done if Kaien wasn't mindfucking, completely and utterly done.

[Random101]

-Ok, Espada #9 who should be above Rangiku in terms of skill, speed, power etc. and who also had pretty good knowledge regarding Rukia's fighting style...managed to dodge that; I really don't see Rangiku doing the same.

You missed the point of what I said entirely, as I said that exactly. >>

Besides, I think that if it was really so extremely slow...

I never said this either, it's relative. A cero is not remotely slow, but the chargeup is the killer for the move for everyone save Starrk who can skip it entirely. This is because of two things, firstly everyone and their mom has an instant movement tech, and secondly the chargeup makes it extremely obvious what is about to happen and gives just enough time to get out the way. Rukia's skillset is quite similar in that regard. Mind it's not enough to make her completely useless, I'm saying that Matsumoto's attacks are faster and she herself is fast enough to get out of the way and has proven as such herself.

there was a significant charged up time (heck Rangiku even saw them charging the thing from the distance; she saw the thing coming)

Welcome to the point. Mind, Cero's don't have a significant chargeup time. Granted it's hard to tell usually, some are faster than others if only slightly, but relatively speaking the amount of chargeup in comparison of the two moves is frankly close enough to be pretty much the same, as in enough that a resourceful and quick reacting person could potentially dodge so long as they see it coming.

Anyway, it should be clear that the point I was making is that Haineko's little tornado has never actually hit anybody so we cannot say for certain how much damage it can really do

The point is the two statements are not of a similar nature, and that it points to the ash being able to damage via a means that's not just slashing the hilt. Mind, the damage that it's going to do is quite irrelevant, so long as it actually does so. Unlike arrancar, who actually got off was some nasty cuts with one strike, Rukia doesn't have Hierro, so any similar attacks she takes means she's getting bar minimum same deal.

Really, I think you're taking Rangiku's words way too seriously and literally. Rangiku states that her spinning ash will mince whatever it touches. And to "mince" is to cut or chop into very small pieces.

Firstly don't go arguing specific words in translations. Keep in mind in transcribing stuff over simple meanings can often be lost resorting the translator to pulling words of a similar yet slightly different nature. Go for the gist.

Secondly no, I'm not saying anything that touches the tornado is going to get off worse than, say, someone hit by Byakuya's bankai. I'm saying it'll do damage as she stated, which is inarguable, and getting out of that is going to be tricky with what Rukia has in her arsenal, particularly if she gets onslaught with the thing before she can properly set up her second dance or something. How much damage and to what degree isn't clear, but given she gives some nasty cuts with a minor attack to hierro wielding arrancar it's pretty clear extended contact is not going to be good for someone without that.

[Jackk]

I don't agree with most of what you said, but this topic doesn't interest me enough to get into a big discussion. That being said, I don't have a whole lot of arguments in defense anyway

I do have a problem with the above though ^

While Aaroniero knew about Rukia, Rukia also knew everything about Kaien's style. Because he died by her, he never had the chance to learn anything new. So while you can say he had knowledge of her, the opposite is also true, so I don't see any clear advantage for either in that regard.

Also, Rukia got completely WTFBBQPWNED through the entire fight. I recently read it again, and I seemed to remember her holding her own, but no. She was done if Kaien wasn't mindfucking, completely and utterly done.

Huh? I never claimed that Kaien/Espada #9 wasn't superior.... As a matter of fact, because he was superior and even had knowledge about Rukia's fighting style and techniques, he was able to dodge easily. Rangiku doesn't know Rukia's fighting style, Rangiku has no knowledge of Rukia's abilities here, and I definitely don't see Rangiku as being in the level of even low tier Espada, ie: Espada #9.

[Takahashi]

I never said this either, it's relative. A cero is not remotely slow, but the chargeup is the killer for the move for everyone save Starrk who can skip it entirely. This is because of two things, firstly everyone and their mom has an instant movement tech, and secondly the chargeup makes it extremely obvious what is about to happen and gives just enough time to get out the way. Rukia's skillset is quite similar in that regard. Mind it's not enough to make her completely useless, I'm saying that Matsumoto's attacks are faster and she herself is fast enough to get out of the way and has proven as such herself.

Welcome to the point. Mind, Cero's don't have a significant chargeup time. Granted it's hard to tell usually, some are faster than others if only slightly, but relatively speaking the amount of chargeup in comparison of the two moves is frankly close enough to be pretty much the same, as in enough that a resourceful and quick reacting person could potentially dodge so long as they see it coming.

Nice juxtaposition thar.

Interesting, and I've never really noticed the similarity there, now that I think about it, I recall Rukia needing very obvious prep time for her attacks...

It would have been a lot better for Matsumoto's defense if her Haineko tornado had actually converged on the Fraccion and not just trapped them, I'd imagine the damage could be quite significant.

---

Huh? I never claimed that Kaien/Espada #9 wasn't superior.... As a matter of fact, because he was superior and even had knowledge about Rukia's fighting style and techniques, he was able to dodge easily. Rangiku doesn't know Rukia's fighting style, Rangiku has no knowledge of Rukia's abilities here, and I definitely don't see Rangiku as being in the level of even low tier Espada, ie: Espada #9.

All I was saying was that Rukia knew everything about him too. You can't give points to Rukia for saying her opponent knew about her attacks when she knew all of his as well.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, I haven't been reading all of your posts :P

[monkey D luffy]

rangiku wins this, just because of her shikai though, she only need to release it and dodge long enough for the ashe to do its job, since rukia doesnt control her zanpakuto all that well yet(long charge up time, first dance is NOT long distanced, while in theory it might as well be) she would lose, but itll take some time

[Tsukisama]

The battle was hard fought, but Rangiku managed to win! She shall advance on into Round 2. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details!