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Thread: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

  1. #331
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    First off a bit of information before the thread goes into a wrong direction due to misinformation

    D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo

    O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.

    Taking this piece of information into consideration, your conclusion of Shanks having twice strength or willpower or whatever is just simply wrong. Luffy on FI was just strong enough (however you want to define strength in this context) to make 50.000 people faint because those were the only ones so weak that you could not even consider them fodder. Oda pretty much introduced a new level of fighters and that´s a level even under fodder. Now, Shanks making all 100.000 faint does not equate to him being twice as strong as Luffy, it just means that the gap between his strength and all 100.000 was big enough for them to be effected by CoC. How much Luffy has to grow to reach that strength is not given at all.
    I did by no means conclude shanks was twice as strong as luffy. The point I tried to make was that in that scenario luffy's highest capacity was 50000 people however the scenario did not provide enough information to see shank's full capacity. My point was that the manga has suggested shanks is at minimum at twice the capacity of luffy in regards to the whole haki thing with the actual top of his powers being massively unclear. It's plausible shanks would actually only be able to do those 100000 people however it is just as plausible that he could do 200000 or 10000000000 under similar circumstances. My entire point was that oda left enough room there for shanks to still be massively stronger than luffy, not just twice as strong.

  2. #332
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member vagabond87's Avatar
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    So I think that current small(maybe it will turn out to be pretty big) fight with Admiral that Law just started in last chapter will help us to see how Luffy(who I think is bit stronger than Law) would fair in fight with Admiral.
    Maybe we will also get to see some exchange between Doflamingo and Law so it will be fuel for further discussion when it comes to how Luffy compares to Doflamingo.
    If Law can stand his ground to Admiral and be able to escape him then in my opinion would make Zoro be capable of doing as good as Law in same situation.

  3. #333
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond87 View Post
    So I think that current small(maybe it will turn out to be pretty big) fight with Admiral that Law just started in last chapter will help us to see how Luffy(who I think is bit stronger than Law) would fair in fight with Admiral.
    Maybe we will also get to see some exchange between Doflamingo and Law so it will be fuel for further discussion when it comes to how Luffy compares to Doflamingo.
    If Law can stand his ground to Admiral and be able to escape him then in my opinion would make Zoro be capable of doing as good as Law in same situation.
    Big +1 !

    In my mind Zoro is Law level and so Luffy is quite above.

  4. #334
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I did by no means conclude shanks was twice as strong as luffy. The point I tried to make was that in that scenario luffy's highest capacity was 50000 people however the scenario did not provide enough information to see shank's full capacity. My point was that the manga has suggested shanks is at minimum at twice the capacity of luffy in regards to the whole haki thing with the actual top of his powers being massively unclear. It's plausible shanks would actually only be able to do those 100000 people however it is just as plausible that he could do 200000 or 10000000000 under similar circumstances. My entire point was that oda left enough room there for shanks to still be massively stronger than luffy, not just twice as strong.
    See, that´s why i said you did not understand it correctly and quoted your post. Let´s use an analogy because it´s a lot easier to explain it that way.
    For opponents to be effected by Haoushoku Haki, there has to be a certain gap between the one who uses it and the opponents.
    Let´s just say Luffy has a strength of 100 (completely random number, does not really have a meaning) and there has to be at least a difference of 50 for opponents to faint, meaning that the 50000 fishmen who fainted were as strong as 50 at best. This also entails that Luffy´s capacity was not 50.000 in general, it just means that the other 50.000 were stronger than 50 and thus not effected by CoC.
    Here comes the most important factor. Since we don´t actually know how strong the other 50.000 fishmen were, we can not draw a conclusion at all from the fact that Shanks could make all 100.000 faint. As far as we know, the rest of the fishmen could have a strength of 51-60, so Shanks could also have only a strength of 110, meaning Shanks could easily be massively stronger than Luffy but also only by a small margin.
    The actual number of people fainting is secondary which was basically my point.

  5. #335
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Another line is not exploited :
    Imagine Luffy would have been ultra pissed off (Hodi killing the King or something like that), would he have knocked-down all the 100 000 fighters?

  6. #336
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_71
    O: It's these three. Their specialty haki color is in the parentheses.


    Luffy (Haoshoku Haki), Conqueror's Haki
    Zoro (Busoshoku Haki), Color of Arms Haki
    Sanji (Kenbunshoku Haki) Color of Observation Haki

    I would love to see some pwnage haki skills from sanji and zoro

  7. #337
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MBVC's Avatar
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Hmm, so Robin doesn't know how to use one but she knows about their existences, I'm quite disappointed. It's understandable that Sanji is good at COO, well at least he has to run far far away from those freaking beautiful ladies for sure. Zoro needs COA to fight against logica users and other great swordsmen who know how to use COA.

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

  8. #338
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Quote Originally Posted by Sproumfch View Post
    Big +1 !

    In my mind Zoro is Law level and so Luffy is quite above.
    I wouldn't say Zoro is Law level, and I wouldn't say Luffy is quite above Law honestly.
    The gap between them all is really, really small I think.

  9. #339
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member TheLuffySmile's Avatar
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    Re: Crews strength - what you expect from now on

    Gah I would love to see Luffy and Zoro battle it out, rly hard to say who would win honestly, though we haven't seen much from either, but still a hell of a lot more from Luffy than Zoro, I WANNA SEE ZORO FCK SOME SHIT UP SOON ODA!
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  10. #340
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    Re: One Piece 719 Discussion/ 720 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Luffy would have lost if it wasn't for the [mental]support of his crew mates on EL. Luffy and Zoro have always been presented of very similar in strength, how you conclude that Luffy almost reached Mihawk's power[the one rivaling Shanks], with Zoro still being far below him is ungraspable.
    Sorry, but I didn't conclude that at all, which means the bolded passage in your comment is a very strange straw man argument. What I said is that The Dark King -- i.e., Rayleigh, not Luffy -- may be just as strong as Mihawk. Although we can't know that for sure, it's certainly a possibility, and it's what I said it was.

    As for Zoro being just as strong as Luffy, I'm sorry to say that I don't believe in it, nor have I any reason to do so. Although Luffy defeated Lucci with the determination he gained from his friends, he was still fighting with him on almost equal grounds, even though -- as I myself conceded -- Lucci probably had a slight advantage. Even though Zoro was not so damaged in his fight with Kaku as Luffy was while fighting Lucci, it was still a struggle for him to win, in a way more similar to Sanji's own battle against Jabura than to Luffy's combat against Lucci. The difference between Lucci and Kaku/Jabura is not so small as you seem to believe, and, although saying he had almost half of Luffy's strength may have been an exaggeration on my part, he is in no way in the same level as the captain, been much closer to Sanji. Perhaps he has something close to 60% or 70% of Luffy's overall capacity, perhaps even 80% -- who knows? What is certain, however, is that he is not as strong as his captain.

    The evidence I presented is one of the few quantifiable criteria of comparison exhibited in the manga about how Luffy, Zoro and Sanji stand in relation to each other when it comes to physical strength -- i.e., the doriki of enemies who fought with them almost on the same level. If you find that ungraspable, I would like to know which kind of evidence you would have to consistently stand against my view. The chapter you posted was a mostly comical quarrel with few, if any serious implications, which, to make things even worse, does not even have a satisfactory conclusion. Since they didn't even had any serious intent for victory in that fight, I don't see how it would be even close to a consistent source of comparison.
    Last edited by Der Namenlose; September 02, 2013 at 05:12 PM.

  11. #341
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    Re: One Piece 719 Discussion/ 720 Predictions

    What evidence do we have to say they are equal? We know that their levels are not far away, but to say he is on Luffy's level is a very long stretch. As far as we know, Zoro should be, at the end of the manga, something close to Luffy's Rayleigh. It's a great feat, but no one in the manga has ever said that Rayleigh was just as great as Roger himself.
    Last edited by Der Namenlose; September 02, 2013 at 05:06 PM.

  12. #342
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    OP 719: Luffy & Zoro

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Namenlose View Post
    Spoiler show
    So I will amend it: You didn't say that Luffy reached Dracule's level of power.

    Yet you wrote Luffy is logically always stronger than his crew mates because of his captain status. When you mentioned Mihawk and Silvers to be of nearly equal strength, it would imply that both can teach similarly good too, one in swordfighting, the other in haki. Had Luffy used a sword, he could have gotten some of that training too, gaining a bit of an advantage probably. Knowing that can use CoA the differences will be decreased even more.

    But remember Zorro's last real 1vs1 fight. It was Ryuma, after he took down Brook. Since then Luffy had the Kuja, Impel Down and Marine Ford arc to shine and grow. Zoro on the other hand, casually split ships apart because he climbed on the wrong one, took Hyouzou apart like he was nothing, slashed Monet into nightmares and is still complaining about his swords itching for a fight to this very moment.

    We will first have to see him fight against an equally strong opponent to make a fair comparison, don't you agree?
    Quote Originally Posted by Der Namenlose View Post
    What evidence do we have to say they are equal? We know that their levels are not far away, but to say he is on Luffy's level is a very long stretch. As far as we know, Zoro should be, at the end of the manga, something close to Luffy's Rayleigh. It's a great feat, but no one in the manga has ever said that Rayleigh was just as great as Roger himself.
    :/

    Why would you make him to be a copy of the past generation, make them shine for what they are. Roger too used swords, so really weird. Is Mihawk the Rayleigh of Shanks generation in your eyes?
    Last edited by Schabrak; September 02, 2013 at 05:22 PM.
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  13. #343
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity danzouismadara's Avatar
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    Re: One Piece 719 Discussion/ 720 Predictions

    zoro is stronger than luffy in my opinion just compare hody jones fight lol anyways I dont think we will see block D it would be pointless since cavendish is obviously the strongest. I think chaos will just spin out of control next chapter since the arena is destroyed and I think all the people will see the factory.


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  14. #344
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    Re: OP 719: Luffy & Zoro

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So I will amend it: You didn't say that Luffy reached Dracule's level of power.

    Yet you wrote Luffy is logically always stronger than his crew mates because of his captain status. When you mentioned Mihawk and Silvers to be of nearly equal strength, it would imply that both can teach similarly good too, one in swordfighting, the other in haki. Had Luffy used a sword, he could have gotten some of that training too, gaining a bit of an advantage probably. Knowing that can use CoA the differences will be decreased even more.

    But remember Zorro's last real 1vs1 fight. It was Ryuma, after he took down Brook. Since then Luffy had the Kuja, Impel Down and Marine Ford arc to shine and grow. Zoro on the other hand, casually split ships apart because he climbed on the wrong one, took Hyouzou apart like he was nothing, slashed Monet into nightmares and is still complaining about his swords itching for a fight to this very moment.

    We will first have to see him fight against an equally strong opponent to make a fair comparison, don't you agree?
    That's the logic of shonen, and I don't see One Piece ever going against it. Yes, I believe we should see him figthing before we make further suppositions about his power, but how likely it would be for him to become stronger than Luffy or able to fight an admiral? The former is impossible in a manga like One Piece, while the latter is obviously not true in the present moment, unless we are to assume Zoro is magically light-years above Law. My sole objective was to discourage such manifestations of fanboyism for Zoro. I don't believe he is weak or even extremely below Luffy, I just believe he is a strong first mate who, in spite of his power, is still below his captain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post

    Why would you make him to be a copy of the past generation, make them shine for what they are. Roger too used swords, so really weird. Is Mihawk the Rayleigh of Shanks generation in your eyes?
    Don't blame me for that; blame Oda instead Luffy's obviously linked to Roger by fate, and I have already demonstrated my dislike for the exaggerated fatalism he chose to employ in his depiction of Luffy and Roger. As for Mihawk, he is not Shanks' first mate, is he? And since when is Shanks the Pirate King? He is linked to Roger by the hat, but he was never presented in the manga as so close to the man as Luffy himself. I'm only presenting connections Oda himself left in the manga, but you seem far bolder than me in that regard.
    Last edited by Der Namenlose; September 02, 2013 at 06:56 PM.

  15. #345
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner tego809's Avatar
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    Re: One Piece 719 Discussion/ 720 Predictions

    seriously, how can some of you guys compare Zoro with luffy, and even say Zoro is stronger than luffy. true, zoro hurt judy jones and luffy had a hard time with him. but, Luffy is a devil fruit eater and was fighting the guy on water, and on top of that, Hody Jones took like a 1000 drug pill and he was fighting in the Ocean .

    Zoro might, might, MIGHT have the same endurance, but Luffy got more WILL and Power. and luffy can grow on strength during a fight. Why you think luffy gets to fight the Bosses and Captains of a crew?

    stop the comparison

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