Crews strength - what you expect from now on

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Just my 2 cents on the last few posts:

Regarding Sanji:
I think having him fight together with Jinbe and having him fight the strongest opponent of the SHs after the timeskip, namely Vergo, is supposed to demonstrate that even the weakest of the "Monster Trio" is at a level to fight at a really strong level (though there are no real tiers in OP considering the huge amount of versatile abilities).
The whole point of the timeskip was to enable the SHs to fight even the strongest characters in the world of OP and i think that succeeded without making them too strong or too overwhelming.
Furthermore, the term "Monster Trio" which was only mentioned once or twice in the manga itself and is more hyped by the fandom, was never a term to illustrate that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are on a same level but that those three are just so much stronger than the rest of the crew which has not changed by the way.
Franky, who has had a few highlights post-TS, is essentially a Pacifista, only with more intelligence and a more versatile fighting style but without the ability to spam lasers like the Pacifista while the "Monster Trio" has been shown to have the ability to even oneshot a Pacifista (though whether they could do the same to Franky is debatable).
The "door incident" on Punk Hazard does not disprove this point because it was explicitly stated that the door was made to absorb any kind of physical damage. As far as we know, not even Luffy´s attacks could have done something.

To the matter of Luffy, Sanji and Zoro being on the same level, i think that´s also not true. Pretty much the entire manga, Luffy got the main villain of the arc as opponent who always was much stronger than his subordinates or the opponents of Sanji and Zoro:

Luffy got Crocodile who frightened all his agents, including Mr1 and Mr2 who were depicted as some kind of rivals.
Enel was like god compared to the rest of the opponents (though in this case, Luffy clearly had the advantage)
Lucci had a Douriki of 4000 while Kaku and Jyabura had 2200/2180 (@M3J: Luffy´s advantage against blunt attacks did not play a role when Lucci was in his leopard form) and Moria was the source of all the deeds on Thriller Bark.
While i am definitely not suggesting that Luffy is much stronger than Sanji and Zoro, especially considering that Luffy is more hurt than the other two after his fights, i still think that there is a gap between them while S+Z are depicted as near equals.
Airgrimes´argument that VCs and second-in-commands are always depicted as stronger than the rest of the crew does not stick with the SHs because the SHs does not have a traditional structure in the first place. Zoro is only considered to be the VC to outsiders because of his renown but unlike the Roger Pirates, the SHs does not have a VC.

[Schabrak]

Because there is no real reason to give a crew of 9[Luffy included] a postion of vice-captain. If training is any indication than Zorro is the second in power, if at all, because he lost an eye and trained with the top swordsman of the world while Sanji ran from Okama and a RA commander, who was Imo depicted below Mihawk in strength despite "winking" both Kuma and Akainu at times.

[Airgrimes]

I don't think oda will give up on monster trios just yet. He has shown a decent bit of them so far.

3 admirals
luffy, zoro, sanji
lucci, kaku, jyabura
marco, jozu, vista(at least those 3 were the most prominent commanders)
Oda has already said there was a guy named bronze in gold roger's crew. So we have gold, silver and bronze there.
3 types of DF
3 marine fortresses
And so on...

I think oda has a thing for the number 3, plain and simple.

I'll be honest, you've just managed to change my outlook on the whole series especially after you dropped the "Oda mentioned a guy named bronze in Roger's crew" line.
I take back my Monster Duo theory.
FOR NOW......

In my defense, I was remembering the Supernova's with Kid & Killer, Luffy & Zoro,
Then there is what seems to be Garp & Sengoku from the generation, Shanks & Benn Beckmann seem to be the clear top two.

And in defense for the Monster Quartet idea earlier, the only parallel I can think of was Arlong and his 3 main assistants Hachi, kuroobi and chew

Because there is no real reason to give a crew of 9[Luffy included] a postion of vice-captain. If training is any indication than Zorro is the second in power, if at all, because he lost an eye and trained with the top swordsman of the world while Sanji ran from Okama and a RA commander, who was Imo depicted below Mihawk in strength despite "winking" both Kuma and Akainu at times.

Why should size affect one's decision on whether there should be a Vice-Captain.
It all depends on how the Captain and crew feels.
We could see smaller crews that have officially titled first mates.

Is it confirmed Zoro lost his eye? (I would find it pretty lame if he did)

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Because there is no real reason to give a crew of 9[Luffy included] a postion of vice-captain. If training is any indication than Zorro is the second in power, if at all, because he lost an eye and trained with the top swordsman of the world while Sanji ran from Okama and a RA commander, who was Imo depicted below Mihawk in strength despite "winking" both Kuma and Akainu at times.

How do you know that Sanji was not trained by Ivankov who in turn had his/her way with Kuma? Seeing that Sanji has an attack called "Spectrum".

[Schabrak]

Why should size affect one's decision on whether there should be a Vice-Captain.
It all depends on how the Captain and crew feels.
We could see smaller crews that have officially titled first mates.

Is it confirmed Zoro lost his eye? (I would find it pretty lame if he did)

I wrote that an official position is not needed when the relationship between the crew members is clear as day and especially after Zorro has spoken a word of command once or twice in the past already.

I think many readers will be disappointed if he has not lost it yet. How nonsensical it would be to run around with a closed eye for days, just because of what exactly? Idiocy would be the only justification, I don't need any Vegeta/Kenpachi restraining stuff within the mugiwaras or even in OP.

We could, did we in the past 700 chapters of this manga? Pirates crews appeared from chapter 1.

How do you know that Sanji was not trained by Ivankov who in turn had his/her way with Kuma? Seeing that Sanji has an attack called "Spectrum".

I didn't intend to make it sound like that, of course he did train with him as well as what 99 other okama? Still Invankow is only one of many RA commanders, while Mihawk is the top swordfighter of the world. Strong trainer doesn't mean greater development, I don't like that cliche, but it insinuates that in this case Imo.

[Airgrimes]

We could, did we in the past 700 chapters of this manga? Pirates crews appeared from chapter 1.

Yeah. We did.
Bellamy Pirates were shown to have no more than 12 members.
3 unnamed and 9 named. Sarquiss being a confirmed First Mate.
Thank you very much for pointing out that Pirate crews appeared from Chapter 1, nobody else on the forum would have noticed if you didn't point that one out.
Thanks man.

I like almost everyone agrees with you Zoro is the First Mate, and I expect Oda to make it official eventually.

[kkck]

In regards to ussop, he is supposed to eventually go up against that sniper guy from BB's crew. That guy is most likely also something like a commander in BB's crew meaning that he must be to put it mildly insanely powerful. Ben was seen stopping an admiral on his tracks with a gun, it wouldn't be strange if this guy could do something vaguely like that. Ussop is going well with his plants so far but the main issue here is that he is only as strong as his plants are at any given time. Plants are good but ussop will have to learn at some point haki just so that he can add it to normal bullets in the future. It would perhaps be less showy but I am of the idea that eventually he will have to incorporate something else into his fighting style so as to not be limited by the strength of his plants.

[jaymizzo]

I get you.
Due to the circumstances between Vergo VS Sanji we can't confirm Sanji is necessarily weaker than VA I guess.
But I dunno... I just feel Oda is slowly preparing to underline that Zoro is the first mate and Sanji is just the cook.
So we're not too far from the gap widening in the Monster trio.

I dont think you have to be the strongest to be the first mate though (out of the crew members) its just a coincidence that most First Mates are quite strong haha. Logically Zoro is the first mate but it isnt really confirmed nor do the Strawhats operate that way.

I personally think Sanji and Zoro are VA level or above (between Admiral - VA), the Vergo incident, i seem to recall Sanji not having much trouble with Vergo nor did he seem to be having a hard time (aside from the broken leg) which he brushed off and continued defending with the same leg.

Dont think the gap will ever be that wide, they have always been close.

[eefrit]

Dont think the gap will ever be that wide, they have always been close.

Yeah, if Oda were to change any dynamic in the manga, I don't think it'll be this one. I'll be honest though, Sanji hasn't really been given a good showing since the start of the time-skip. The best he got was destroying a pacifista and attacking a tentacle. Vergo was cool, but the showing really didn't help him in the long run.

As for the differences in training, just because a big name didn't train him doesn't mean he is weaker for it. I mean he spent two years running and fighting, I'm assuming non-stop judging from the brief flashback, 99 Newkama Kenpo Masters. And I'm assuming they were strong as they were apparently tough enough to force Sanji to increase his strength enough to oneshot a pacifista.