Romance & Society in Naruto

[EMS]

Naruto/hinata.
sai/ino.
shikamaru/temari.
sasuke/orochimaru.
hashirama/madara.
lee/tenten.
sakura

sakura/dildo.

tsunade after she dies/team dan & jiraya.

[Jessie]

So it's ok for Sasuke to play villan because his clan was killed, and Nagato because his comrade was killed, but it's not ok for Obito to be a villan because he had an unrequitted love who got killed? His reason is just as valid as Nagato's, maybe even more so, so why the difference between the two? Is it because Nagato's tragedy was drawn out over several chapters so you can empathize with his ordeal, while Kishi kept Tobi as the "mystery man" and couldn't develop him because people would figure out who he was as soon as Kishi tried?

For all the grief we give Sasuke, he certainly had more legitimate reasons for breaking down and going mad than Obito ever had. Obito makes Sasuke look like a rock of stability.

Nagato? The equivalent of Obito going crazy over Rin would have been if Nagato decided to become Pain because his puppy named Chibi was killed. Remember when the spoilers were released about that chapter? Many thought Kishi was actually going to use the dog's death as the catalyst for Nagato. But he thankfully didn't and Nagato was going to suffer a lot more. It was just another crack in the wall for Nagato that would break open with Yahiko's death. Not the main cause.

I am not saying either were worthy of Shakespeare. But compared to Obito's back story, they were certainly more believable for the audience.

Maybe not to a normal person but Obito didn't have a breakdown, he was broken by Rin's death.

And that is the problem fans have with it. It is simply not believable for a 13 year old boy to become a mad man because his crush was killed by the guy he was jealous over. Even cheesy high school romance novels aren't that dramatic.

Let's say Rin and Obito were in love and this was shown in the manga. Perhaps...I say perhaps Obito's complete breakdown over Rin's death would have been more plausible given he lost a love, who was an important person in his life, and not simply a crush. Maybe I could buy Obito's breakdown to a point. But with the way the story was written there is a disconnect over Rin's death and Obito's reaction. There is something missing. If Madara was using genjutsu on him at least that would have been a better reason

We could see Sasuke and Nagato's reasons for madness. Both happened over years. But Obito's reasons make him come off as a spoiled brat who didn't get what he wanted(a girl he liked) so now the entire world must suffer for it. So he can selfishly live out a genjutsu fantasy with someone who never loved him. Talk about sexual entitlement. How ironic that he claims to care for Rin and yet her feelings never enter into the equation? It is only about what Obito wants. How on earth is that a compelling villain? He was just a pathetic loser. No one should ever compare Naruto to this guy.

Villains can be scary, powerful, violent, disgusting, insane, underhanded, corrupt, diabolic, humorous, charming, etc. We expect that of them. They are meant to be hated, but in an entertaining way. But the one thing they cannot do is ever become annoying. And that is what Obito's flashback made him.

Kishi is writing a fantasy manga where people use magic and can jump 50 feet in the air. But he also wants his manga grounded in real emotions. And that didn't happen with Obito.

Anyway, I don't care about romance now. All I want is for Kishi to get Shikamaru adn Temari together. That's all I care about, romance-wise. Anything else is a bonus, as long as it's not wrong.

And it wouldn't require Sakura spouting off things about women being like autumn skies. Or Sasuke doing a 180 and loving Sakura after trying to kill her two times. Or Naruto forgetting his chase of Sakura and turning to Hinata. Or poor Hinata having to put all her eggs in one basket in her pursuit of Naruto.

Just a classic boy/girl relationship between two characters who seem perfect for each other and have no drama to keep them apart. Other than their own stubbornness. See Asuma and Kurenai. It can be done in three panels near the end of the manga.

[Brill]

Well I really don't think Obito's reason is as valid as Nagato's or Sasuke's. I mean I'm not the biggest fan of Sasuke but the main difference in the two is that not only was Sasuke's entire clan killed but Konoha pretty much forced his brother into doing it. And at least Sasuke asked his brother why he did it; as far as we know Obito never posed this question to Kakashi about Rin. Then poor Sasuke finds out the truth and that his brother was put into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Obito, after the death of Rin still had Konoha, his ENTIRE clan, Kakashi, and that old lady with her groceries to go back to. Make no mistake Sasuke is alone; he lost his parents, his clan, and his brother. Obito lost a girl who did not return his love. I can agree that maybe (maaaayyyybbbeeeeee) it shouldn't just come down to whether is was unrequited love since you love who you love and can't help it but still it would be easier to take in if they were married, had kids, or she loved him back.

As for Nagato, he was an orphan who grew up with Konan and Yahiko. They became his siblings. His harsh upbringing, war torn country, and one of his siblings dying is more than enough to have Nagato flip out.

Damn though..truthfully all these kids have a right to be messed up in the head.

Well for Sasuke the issue was why did Itachi kill mom and dad. Sure, the clan's demise has a higher impact but when Sasuke pressed Itachi for an answer it's "Why did you kill mom and dad?". So Sasuke, Nagato, and Obtio all lost people that they cared about. So familial love, and brotherly love are justified reasons for revenge, but why not romantic love? Sasuke had Team 7 and Konoha to help him but that didn't stop him for leaving. Nagato still had Konan and the original Akatsuki after Yahiko died but that didn't stop him from going off the deep end either. So why do people have issue with Obito going rogue over Rin's death and not returning to the fold? She was the world to him and then she was killed by the system.

Both Sasuke and Nagato went through several tragedies and the manipulation of evil masterminds before turning to the path of evil, and even then they didn't greatly change or turn their backs on their beliefs. Sasuke was still a "Konoha" ninja most of the time and Nagato was still working towards peace. Obito on the other hand when through a single tragedy and completely turnt his back on his belief.

Sasuke went through 1 tragedy while Nagato went through 2. That's not more than Obito went through. Both Sasuke and Nagato forsaked their beleifs systems to pursue their revenge. Sasuke believed that he could have remained in Konoha with Naruto and Sakura and be part fo the system, he then decided to cut those bonds to pursue a different course of action. Nagato did a complete 180, he became the antagonist of the "Tales of the Gutsy Ninja" without realizing it. The protagonist was based on the original Nagato. So both Sasuke and Nagato abandoned their ways to pursue their revenge. So why can't Obito do it for romantic love?

And really, what would have been the problem had Kishi revealed Obito earlier on? Not as if this whole Madara masquerade was kept for very long. If anything, it would have been accepted better had he been revealed earlier, as then we wouldn't have had to suffer through all the Madara hints and timeline inconsistencies screwing things up for people.

Well is that any better than finding out Tobi is Obito but not finding out the reason why for another 200 chapters? Doesn't serve a purpose really. You just replace the unanswered question "who is Obito" with "why did Obito" for 200 chapters. It doesn't get you anywhere until Kishi decides to explain things.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Nah...

There's a ton of ShikamaruXIno shippers.
http://data0.eklablog.com/reynejibos...icle135201.jpg

There are even some ShikamaruXShiho shippers.
http://hzleys87.deviantart.com/art/S...-Out-188759353

And of course, there are also some ShikamaruXTayuya shippers (even though she's dead, so...)
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...old.jpghttp://

Oh yeah, how can I forget.
There's a lot of ShikamaruXKurenai shippers as well!
http://www.deviantart.com/download/1...ue-d2z9v7e.jpg

The Kurenai one is just sick.
Well Shikamaru is a pimp ( and Kishi did say that he would go for him, should he be a girl ) so its normal, but my point was that the majority was ok with Shikamaru and Temari without arguing about it.

And we all know Ino will go with Chouji, she knows his biggest advantage

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------

Naruto/hinata.
sai/ino.
shikamaru/temari.
sasuke/orochimaru.
hashirama/madara.
lee/tenten.
sakura

sakura/dildo.

tsunade after she dies/team dan & jiraya.

[Brill]

For all the grief we give Sasuke, he certainly had more legitimate reasons for breaking down and going mad than Obito ever had. Obito makes Sasuke look like a rock of stability.

Nagato? The equivalent of Obito going crazy over Rin would have been if Nagato decided to become Pain because his puppy named Chibi was killed. Remember when the spoilers were released about that chapter? Many thought Kishi was actually going to use the dog's death as the catalyst for Nagato. But he thankfully didn't and Nagato was going to suffer a lot more. It was just another crack in the wall for Nagato that would break open with Yahiko's death. Not the main cause.

I am not saying either were worthy of Shakespeare. But compared to Obito's back story, they were certainly more believable for the audience.

Agreed. A 7-year old becoming a basket case aftering seeing your dead parents is more plausible, but that doesn't prevent a 13-year old from losing it after having your friend and rival killing the woman you love. If Kishi developed Obito as much as he did Sasuke there wouldn't be as much griping-but then, no mystery either.

I like the puppy love analogy, but once again the issue is development. Nagato was stretched over several chapters with Jiraiya and Naruto arcs. Obito was a side character in how Kakashi got his sharingan, the focus of the arc was not the foundation for the next 20 years of the Naruto world. Let's be real, you can't make a sympathetic villian in 3 chapters and this is manga not a mystery novel, where the author can leave hints throughout the work and then tie them all together at the end. So while the development is lacking that doesn't mean the Obito's motive is illegitimate. Kishi has been laying themes for revenge and the cycle of hate since the beginning. Hes uses familial and comradric ties to become agents of revenge, using love is just filling out the menu.

And that is the problem fans have with it. It is simply not believable for a 13 year old boy to become a mad man because his crush was killed by the guy he was jealous over. Even cheesy high school romance novels aren't that dramatic.

Let's say Rin and Obito were in love and this was shown in the manga. Perhaps...I say perhaps Obito's complete breakdown over Rin's death would have been more plausible given he lost a love, who was an important person in his life, and not simply a crush. Maybe I could buy Obito's breakdown to a point. But with the way the story was written there is a disconnect over Rin's death and Obito's reaction. There is something missing. If Madara was using genjutsu on him at least that would have been a better reason

We could see Sasuke and Nagato's reasons for madness. Both happened over years. But Obito's reasons make him come off as a spoiled brat who didn't get what he wanted(a girl he liked) so now the entire world must suffer for it. So he can selfishly live out a genjutsu fantasy with someone who never loved him. Talk about sexual entitlement. How ironic that he claims to care for Rin and yet her feelings never enter into the equation? It is only about what Obito wants. How on earth is that a compelling villain? He was just a pathetic loser. No one should ever compare Naruto to this guy.

Villains can be scary, powerful, violent, disgusting, insane, underhanded, corrupt, diabolic, humorous, charming, etc. We expect that of them. They are meant to be hated, but in an entertaining way. But the one thing they cannot do is ever become annoying. And that is what Obito's flashback made him.

Kishi is writing a fantasy manga where people use magic and can jump 50 feet in the air. But he also wants his manga grounded in real emotions. And that didn't happen with Obito.

You're right, cheesy high school romances are more inane and frivolous than hitting the world reset button. However, even if the scenario is unpalletable there is a pathway for believability. So is it Obito's immaturity that's too hard to swallow? If this happened when they were 20 would that be ok? Is it the fact that Obito's pretty one-dimensional and wasn't wrung through a angst-ridden phase while trapped with Madara before seeing Rin's death, or having a self-loathing phase before he lost his moral center, or is it that's his love is unrequitted?

Yes, Sasuke and Nagato had their angst-ridden moments before they finally went bad, but Obito doesn't have to follow the same path to become a vilian. You can have 1 traumatic moment that changes you forever, and not have your moral compass waivering between both ends of the continuum for a period of years.

You forgot one very important characteristic of villans. Pity. Obito and other villans have shown many of those characteristics that were listed, but you wind up pitying them as well. You pity Sasuke for not recognizing all the efforts his friends try to do to bring him back. You pity Nagato for becoming the opposite of his true goals in life. You can pity Obito for not being able to deal with the sorrow that was inflicted on him and having the courage to accept what happens to you instead of running to the reset button.

[Rikudou King]

Sasuke went through 1 tragedy while Nagato went through 2. That's not more than Obito went through. Both Sasuke and Nagato forsaked their beleifs systems to pursue their revenge. Sasuke believed that he could have remained in Konoha with Naruto and Sakura and be part fo the system, he then decided to cut those bonds to pursue a different course of action. Nagato did a complete 180, he became the antagonist of the "Tales of the Gutsy Ninja" without realizing it. The protagonist was based on the original Nagato. So both Sasuke and Nagato abandoned their ways to pursue their revenge. So why can't Obito do it for romantic love?

Sasuke suffered through the elimination of his clan/betrayal of Itachi and then the death of Itachi/discovering the truth, and Nagato suffered through the death of his parents and the betrayal of Hanzou/death of Yahiko, along with both suffering from the manipulation of Tobi, and Orochimaru and his Cursed Seal in Sasuke's case. All Obito suffered through was the death of Rin. And neither forsook their beliefs. Sasuke had always been about becoming strong enough to take down Itachi, and while he had begun to grow to believe that he could accomplish that in Konoha, him leaving Konoha for more power is not some major change in him. He was still mostly a "Konoha ninja" even after he had left, up until the Summit, and even after maintained his honor/pride concerning Naruto. And Nagato had always been attempting to bring peace, with the death of Yahiko merely changing the method by which he attempted to achieve it. Neither of their core personalities changed, whereas Obito became a whole different person from who he had been.

And the reason it doesn't measure up is simply because the feeling of a boyhood crush aren't very comparable to the feeling of love for family. Had Obito and Rin been closer, then perhaps, but a one-sided connection isn't all that deep.

Well is that any better than finding out Tobi is Obito but not finding out the reason why for another 200 chapters? Doesn't serve a purpose really. You just replace the unanswered question "who is Obito" with "why did Obito" for 200 chapters. It doesn't get you anywhere until Kishi decides to explain things.

But it would be better due to use presumably having to deal with less plotholes and canon changes. At worst, it would simply have us assuming what was assumed before we saw the flashbacks, that Madara had manipulated Obito into becoming a villain.

[Bajan4eva1]

Well for Sasuke the issue was why did Itachi kill mom and dad. Sure, the clan's demise has a higher impact but when Sasuke pressed Itachi for an answer it's "Why did you kill mom and dad?". So Sasuke, Nagato, and Obtio all lost people that they cared about. So familial love, and brotherly love are justified reasons for revenge, but why not romantic love? Sasuke had Team 7 and Konoha to help him but that didn't stop him for leaving. Nagato still had Konan and the original Akatsuki after Yahiko died but that didn't stop him from going off the deep end either. So why do people have issue with Obito going rogue over Rin's death and not returning to the fold? She was the world to him and then she was killed by the system..

Well i think all three are justified reasons for revenge: familial, brotherly, and romantic. However, the level of Obito's romantic love, or rather the level that Kishi has displayed while writing his fall from grace, is not. Yes Sasuke still had Team 7 but he'd been driven from anger alot longer and alot more than Obito. His goal was to kill his brother, avenge his parents and his clan, and no one was going to get in his way. That was sitting and festering in his mind for years. We'll never know but I think that had Itachi really just been evil then after Sasuke killed him he'd have come back to Konoha.

As for Nagato, yeah he still had Konan and Akatsuki but essentially he only had two "siblings" left and one died in front of him. That combined with his parents dying in front of him (i think), his war torn country, not knowing if he was going to live one day or die another because he was either starving or crossing over a battlefield; yeah he has every right to want peace by any means necessary. But that's how Kishi wrote both Nagato's and Sasuke's character. Sadly he didn't do the same for Obito. LOL on a side note God only knows what Nagato would have done if Konan died.

I mean all it might have taken in the Kakashi gaiden was for Rin to tell Obito she loves him before he sacrificed himself or upon his deathbed, him dying in her arms, or even a nod of approval that we could analyze as, "Go get him tiger, I love you!" . Who knows maybe it would take one chapter, one page, or one panel, but in the end we got nothing of the sort to go with. We literally only have a one sided crush that was inferred. So IMO it seems way more on the crazy/stalker side (crazy being the key word) then the avenging/justified side.

[THM Nindo]

The Kurenai one is just sick.
Well Shikamaru is a pimp ( and Kishi did say that he would go for him, should he be a girl ) so its normal, but my point was that the majority was ok with Shikamaru and Temari without arguing about it.

And we all know Ino will go with Chouji, she knows his biggest advantage

I don't know.

I find shipping Shikamaru with a dead girl (Tayuya) a bit more extreme than shipping it with his master's lover which he swear to take care of (her and her child).
Sure, she's older than him, but in the long term, that doesn't matter much.

Still, I agree.
Pretty much everyone prefers ShikamaruXTemari.

And I'm also a big fan of ChojiXIno.
(And for that reason, I hate the SaiXIno pairing!)

[Uchiha_Blood]

I don't know.

I find shipping Shikamaru with a dead girl (Tayuya) a bit more extreme than shipping it with his master's lover which he swear to take care of (her and her child).
Sure, she's older than him, but in the long term, that doesn't matter much.

Still, I agree.
Pretty much everyone prefers ShikamaruXTemari.

And I'm also a big fan of ChojiXIno.
(And for that reason, I hate the SaiXIno pairing!)

Well Tayuya was awesome imho, its a cuter, way stronger Karin.
Even though yes, its pretty sick

Dunno, I'd believe he's would betray Asuma if he gets together with his wife, you know?
Like Kakashi doing the hanky panky with Kushina, should she survived.

Well I doubt Sai will end with a girl, imho he plays for the same team

[THM Nindo]

Well Tayuya was awesome imho, its a cuter, way stronger Karin.
Even though yes, its pretty sick

Dunno, I'd believe he's would betray Asuma if he gets together with his wife, you know?
Like Kakashi doing the hanky panky with Kushina, should she survived.

Well I doubt Sai will end with a girl, imho he plays for the same team

Well, I believe Asuma would rather see her with Shikamaru, who he knows his a good guy, than with some random dude.
But, yeah, I see what you mean...

[Rikudou King]

Why is Shikamaru x Tayuya sick? It's not pairing him with the actual dead body, merely a "what could have been" type thing.

[THM Nindo]

Why is Shikamaru x Tayuya sick? It's not pairing him with the actual dead body, merely a "what could have been" type thing.

Lol, I know.
But I got the feeling we were more talking about who could end up with whom in the end.

Obviously, the Shikamaru/Tayuya pairing can no longer happen.

PS: Makes me think...
Shikamaru really do always end up fighting girls...

With the exception of Hidan, he pretty much only fought girl... Kin, Temari, Tayuya...
That's probably why he gets so many pairings!

[M3J]

In Sakura's defense she had no reason to at that point. To her, Naruto was a idiot loud mouth coward. Remember how he acted in front of the demon brothers? Not to mention she was 12, looking at this from a realistic perspective, 12 year olds don't even know what love is.

Hinata starting "loving" Naruto because he was loud and brash, everything she wasn't. He wasn't awkward in social situations like she was.

Sakura starting "loving" Naruto because he was her savior, because he cared for her, and because he'd do anything for her.

Then of course, the two of them "love" him because he has a heart of gold, is brave, and is natural leader in the sense that people look up to him and follow him. But they each had different reasons for initially falling for him, or for having some sort of feelings for him.

No, Hinata said she loved Naruto because he was confident and never gave up. He tried his best and all that jazz, despite the adversity he faced. She saw Naruto beyond the exterior. Sakura didn't until Naruto showed he wasn't as bad as they all thought he was.

Has anyone noticed how Shikamaru and Temari are, like, the universal Naruto couple?
Every fan will argue on Jiraiya, Tsunade, Dan, Naruto, Hinata, Sasuke, Karin and Sakura, but you never see someone dissing this awesome pairing.

Makes you wonder

That people have some good taste? Yes.

Nah...

There's a ton of ShikamaruXIno shippers.
http://data0.eklablog.com/reynejibos...icle135201.jpg

There are even some ShikamaruXShiho shippers.
http://hzleys87.deviantart.com/art/S...-Out-188759353

And of course, there are also some ShikamaruXTayuya shippers (even though she's dead, so...)
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...old.jpghttp://

Oh yeah, how can I forget.
There's a lot of ShikamaruXKurenai shippers as well!
http://www.deviantart.com/download/1...ue-d2z9v7e.jpg

NO
NO
NO

NOOOO


I just can't... I can't deal with this. I just don't...

And it wouldn't require Sakura spouting off things about women being like autumn skies. Or Sasuke doing a 180 and loving Sakura after trying to kill her two times. Or Naruto forgetting his chase of Sakura and turning to Hinata. Or poor Hinata having to put all her eggs in one basket in her pursuit of Naruto.

Just a classic boy/girl relationship between two characters who seem perfect for each other and have no drama to keep them apart. Other than their own stubbornness. See Asuma and Kurenai. It can be done in three panels near the end of the manga.

Asuma and Kurenai weren't the main focus as the rookies were. Plus, I wouldn't mind seeing Temari and Shikamaru interact with each other, they're pretty good together.

I do want Naruto to end up with Hinata, though. Too bad it may not happen. :\

[Uchiha_Blood]

Well, I believe Asuma would rather see her with Shikamaru, who he knows his a good guy, than with some random dude.
But, yeah, I see what you mean...

Obviously, still wouldn't it be awkward to be the sensei of your own son?

Why is Shikamaru x Tayuya sick? It's not pairing him with the actual dead body, merely a "what could have been" type thing.

You never know, nowadays people can do the craziest things

That people have some good taste? Yes.

Damn straight

[Delbi]

My personal dream pairings that will never happen minus the obvious one.

Sasuke x Hinata

Naruto x Ino

Garaa x Sakura

Shikamaru x Temari

Neji x Samui

Kakashi x Mei/Kurenai