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Thread: Romance & Society in Naruto <3

  1. #871
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    While I understand the point your making about character growth among secondary characters the fact that it isn't done well or often in Naruto doesn't really make it "ok" and I would argue that what happened with Karin has gone even beyond that.
    I'm not giving it a total slide either, however, I think what transpired with Karin in this chapter is being overplayed.


    Quote Quote:
    What I saw was a character who had gone through character development get it reversed without reason other than bad writing. Karin got stabbed and left to die by Sasuke; resolved to quit being his doormat. And now is all like SASUKE-KUN <3 !!! When I saw that I was like...
    I would disagree about Karin having character development. Yes, she got stabbed by Sasuke but that's an action-not character development. She then proceeds to disavow any dealing with Sasuke, however, you see her fighting with herself in jail over her feelings for Sauske. Your disgust over Karin reverting is about 20 chapters too late. This woman has no free will, she's a very shallow character so the moment you saw Karin giving a roundhouse kick to Suigetsu's face she had already caved-in to her feeelings and forgiven Sasuke.

    Quote Quote:
    Karin, at the end of the kage summit arc, had a moment of emotional growth when Sasuke betrayed her, stabbed her, and treated her with all the emotional attachment he would show to a styrofoam cup. But Kishimoto basically undid that by having her seem to just forget about all that and go right back to the square one of being a his fangirl for no damn reason. Sasuke doesn't seem to feel guilty about any of it either. The whole thing is just awful.
    Jyuugo is a guy who's more St. Francis than ninja and Suigetsu is nothing more than the team buffoon. They're back to their orginal positions and the team is ready to head out again. All the telltale signs for the band getting back together were there, and Kishi follows through on items that he hints at. So Karin was going back the only unresolved point was the method of her return. You could have Karin agonizing over it for a few more minutes or have Sasuke give a more elegant apology than he did, but in the end it doesn't amount to much and just wastes panels.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    While I agree Kishimoto is doing things like this Karin stuff for a reason and it seems awful to us, because we don't think of things as shallowly as he seems to, and that in and of itself is what is truly terrible.

    Nobody should ever be able to think more deeply and be more focused on the finer points of a story than the person writing it. If he wanted Karin to act like this he should never have written her stabbed and left for dead like that, but since he did he had an obligation to us the readers not to sweep it under the rug like he did. That laziness and lack of forethought creates a subtext, that I can only hope is unintentional because it's absolutely horrendous.

    That subtext is..... "That it was ok for Sasuke to do what he did."

    Having everything get smoothed over for Sasuke without addressing what did to Karin, and the rest of Hebi for that matter. is like modeling him after an abusive boyfriend who beats every girl he dates and Kishimoto is telling his audience that it's girlfriend's fault for making him angry or the worlds fault for not doing things his way. He stabbed her and left her for dead and freakin' smiled about it Christs sake! Forgiveness in light of Sasuke showing genuine remorse would be one thing. If he was like "I'm sorry Karin I shouldn't probably shouldn't have stabbed you in the chest and I definitely shouldn't have smiled and left you for dead." Instead he was like "Oh...it's you." and she was all like "SASUKE-KUN!!!"

    In my opinion, that is disgusting; and the fact that Kisimoto, even if it was by accident, allowed such a thing is reprehensible.
    I agree 100%, but the fact remains that Kishi has proven time and time again that he's a terrible story teller. Long gone are Wave Country Arcs of this manga, that was essentially a fluke. The manga isn't as gritty as it used to be, and the comedic timing is terrible.

    I've come to accept that Kishi isn't a great story teller, or rather, he was unable to continue telling his original Naruto story in a good way. It will be interesting to see how his new manga pans out because frankly I have low expectations.

    ---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Angillis View Post
    I also remembered a review for Attack of the Clones where the reviewer concluded that "George Lucas tottally gets women"
    George Lucas may have been the creator of Star Wars but he also ruined the damn series. Very few people are able to create a Universe and story and then push it to new heights. IMO, all the best Star Wars stories were told by people other than Lucas, and frankly, the best Naruto stories lie in the realms of fanfiction.

    Granted, Kishi can't delve too deep in 15-17 pages a week, but his story telling ability has diminished almost completely. His characters are bi-polar messes who can't stay on track from chapter to chapter, never mind volume to volume.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #873
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm not giving it a total slide either, however, I think what transpired with Karin in this chapter is being overplayed.
    I don't think it can be overplayed. I'm not exaggerating when I say that in my opinion this is the lowest Kishimoto has ever sunk to as a writer.

    And he's don't some pretty bad things before. This is the third time he has turned back the clock with a female character's development. (Hinata after the Pain invasion, Sakura at the end of the Kage summit, and now this Karin atrocity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I would disagree about Karin having character development. Yes, she got stabbed by Sasuke but that's an action-not character development. She then proceeds to disavow any dealing with Sasuke, however, you see her fighting with herself in jail over her feelings for Sauske. Your disgust over Karin reverting is about 20 chapters too late. This woman has no free will, she's a very shallow character so the moment you saw Karin giving a roundhouse kick to Suigetsu's face she had already caved-in to her feeelings and forgiven Sasuke.

    Jyuugo is a guy who's more St. Francis than ninja and Suigetsu is nothing more than the team buffoon. They're back to their orginal positions and the team is ready to head out again. All the telltale signs for the band getting back together were there, and Kishi follows through on items that he hints at. So Karin was going back the only unresolved point was the method of her return. You could have Karin agonizing over it for a few more minutes or have Sasuke give a more elegant apology than he did, but in the end it doesn't amount to much and just wastes panels.
    I disagree, I think this is one thing that wouldn't be a waste of panels. Because showing remorse out of Sasuke is an important step toward making his possible redemption more plausible AND to keep Karin's characterization away from a creepy take on a the battered spouse. Creating rational character flow is not a waste it's one of the most the basic the requirements of even average writing.

    With all the time Kishimoto has wasted on incredibly stupid and pointless side-plots (Motoi and Killer B jumps to mind) I completely reject the idea that he couldn't be bothered to fulfill a basic need of doing what he needs to in order for his character's individual motivations to make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I agree 100%, but the fact remains that Kishi has proven time and time again that he's a terrible story teller. Long gone are Wave Country Arcs of this manga, that was essentially a fluke. The manga isn't as gritty as it used to be, and the comedic timing is terrible.

    I've come to accept that Kishi isn't a great story teller, or rather, he was unable to continue telling his original Naruto story in a good way. It will be interesting to see how his new manga pans out because frankly I have low expectations.
    He definitely hasn't be good recently. You know if it came out later that Kishimoto had Naruto ghostwritten by his assistants or something that would not surprise me at all.

    The thing that makes it so hard for me to accept that Kishimoto is just a bad writer is that he did what I consider good writing for so long. Part 1's narrative was really good and I would argue that the first few arcs of Part 2 were even better. I just can't understand how the writer who wrote that also wrote this. How can the same guy make the kind of mistakes I've rarely seen outside of indie books from the kindle store?
    Last edited by Jammin; April 20, 2013 at 04:09 PM.
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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    He definitely hasn't be good recently. You know if it came out later that Kishimoto had Naruto ghostwritten by his assistants or something that would not surprise me at all.

    The thing that makes it so hard for me to accept that Kishimoto is just a bad writer is that he did what I consider good writing for so long. Part 1's narrative was really good and I would argue that the first few arcs of Part 2 were even better. I just can't understand how the writer who wrote that also wrote this. How can the same guy make the kind of mistakes I've rarely seen outside of indie books from the kindle store?
    Part 1 was great, although going back and reading it again now at the age of 23 there are certainly parts that could have been better. Granted, this could be because of hindsight and the fact that Kishi reconned so much of the damn manga.

    Part 2 for me was mostly good up until the Nagato's change of face. At that point, to me, the manga has been nothing but fan service and shit with just enough good points to keep me reading it.

    Honestly, I think something that people don't realize is that while Kishi's story has suffered, his art has grown tremendously. It could be that since he has to focus more on drawing everything that his story is suffering.

    IMO, to me, some of the best Arcs still lie in Part 2, mainly the Immortals Arc and Jiraiya's Death. But IMO, I don't think Kishi ever quite recaptured the emotions and gravitas he did with the Wave Country Arc. The whole notion that shinobi are tools, the idea that those who leave their comrades are trash, all came from that arc. The great reveal of the Sharigan, Rakiri, and the power of the Kyuubi, all in one arc. And finally, of course, this is what truly kick started Naruto and Sasuke's relationship. We had Sasuke laying down his life for Naruto, possibly even dying to protect him. I could go on and on about this arc and how it hooked me. If anything, I wish Kishi would redraw it to really cement it in stone.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Reviewer 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member otomo20's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Kishi's art has grown amazingly, I saw a panel from part 1 when Tsunada was battling Kabuto and it just seemed so bad compared to the quality we are used to now.

    Story went downhill for me after the kage summit arc, using the whole ET to bring in many favourite characters was a cheap move and made the manga too slow for me.

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  9. #876
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I don't think it can be overplayed. I'm not exaggerating when I say that in my opinion this is the lowest Kishimoto has ever sunk to as a writer.
    Well 6 weeks ago it was Hinata holding hands with Naruto, now it's Karin forgiving Sasuke, and I'm sure Sakura will do something to piss you off a few weeks from now.

    Quote Quote:
    And he's don't some pretty bad things before. This is the third time he has turned back the clock with a female character's development. (Hinata after the Pain invasion, Sakura at the end of the Kage summit, and now this Karin atrocity)
    How was Hinata reset? She's the only girl going foward, if albeit slowly. Sakura was the old Sakura 10 chapters after Sasori died, by the time the Summot Arc started she was already ni form, no reversion. Karin was still Karin she went nowhere so there was nowhere to revert from.

    Quote Quote:
    I disagree, I think this is one thing that wouldn't be a waste of panels. Because showing remorse out of Sasuke is an important set to making his possible redemption more plausible AND to keep Karin's characterization away from a creepy take on a the battered spouse. Creating rational character flow is not a waste it's one of the most the basic the requirements of even average writing.
    Well, frankly, that's asking too much. Sasuke has never been a touchy-feely guy. For him to offer more than 3 syllables in any thoughful statement is too much. The pendulum on Sasuke is finally pulling away from raving lunatic to thoughtful individual again. For him to give a lengthy apology would be even a bigger trangression. Karin's return to the creepy, infatuated girl is a tad sad, however, Karin was a desperate, creepy girl to begin with. It's not catastrophic like Sasuke getting all mushy and offering speeches of apology to any girl he rejected. For a guy who spent his time cutting the bonds with everyone he knew to come rushing back is disasterous. It's still too early for that.

    Quote Quote:
    With all the time Kishimoto has wasted on incredibly stupid and pointless side-plots (Motoi and Killer B jumps to mind) I completely reject the idea that he couldn't be bothered to fulfill a basic need of doing what he needs to in order for his character's individual motivations to make sense.
    Well plotlines and character development don't need to go hand in hand. Part 1 was heavy on character development buy light on plot, Part two is the opposite. You want Kishi to delve into character development since you don't like the plot just chapters away from the final battles? Not gonna happen, that time has come to pass.

  10. #877
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Part 1 was great, although going back and reading it again now at the age of 23 there are certainly parts that could have been better. Granted, this could be because of hindsight and the fact that Kishi reconned so much of the damn manga.

    Part 2 for me was mostly good up until the Nagato's change of face. At that point, to me, the manga has been nothing but fan service and shit with just enough good points to keep me reading it.

    Honestly, I think something that people don't realize is that while Kishi's story has suffered, his art has grown tremendously. It could be that since he has to focus more on drawing everything that his story is suffering.

    IMO, to me, some of the best Arcs still lie in Part 2, mainly the Immortals Arc and Jiraiya's Death. But IMO, I don't think Kishi ever quite recaptured the emotions and gravitas he did with the Wave Country Arc. The whole notion that shinobi are tools, the idea that those who leave their comrades are trash, all came from that arc. The great reveal of the Sharigan, Rakiri, and the power of the Kyuubi, all in one arc. And finally, of course, this is what truly kick started Naruto and Sasuke's relationship. We had Sasuke laying down his life for Naruto, possibly even dying to protect him. I could go on and on about this arc and how it hooked me. If anything, I wish Kishi would redraw it to really cement it in stone.
    We're floating pretty far offtopic here but yeah Part 2 had some good arcs. I personally even liked the Kagesummit arc right up until near the conclusion. But there is no question that Part 1 had some really great arcs to.(I liked the Wave Country Arc and the Search for Tsunade Arc the best myself)


    Quote Originally Posted by otomo20 View Post
    Kishi's art has grown amazingly, I saw a panel from part 1 when Tsunada was battling Kabuto and it just seemed so bad compared to the quality we are used to now.

    Story went downhill for me after the kage summit arc, using the whole ET to bring in many favourite characters was a cheap move and made the manga too slow for me.
    I have to agree with that as an I have a hard time coming up with another artist that I think has improved as much as Kishimoto has. He's come a long way in that respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Well 6 weeks ago it was Hinata holding hands with Naruto, now it's Karin forgiving Sasuke, and I'm sure Sakura will do something to piss you off a few weeks from now.

    How was Hinata reset? She's the only girl going foward, if albeit slowly. Sakura was the old Sakura 10 chapters after Sasori died, by the time the Summot Arc started she was already ni form, no reversion. Karin was still Karin she went nowhere so there was nowhere to revert from.
    Hinata holding hands with Naruto was fine but it should have happened a long time ago and we both probably know that. Kishimoto had her declare her love for him before she got stabbed and hasn't mentioned it a single time since. She found her resolve, lost her resolve for no reason, then when Neji died repeated the whole thing over again by spewing horrendous romance novel dialogue("Oh, Naruto your hands are so big and manly!" *sound of me vomiting*) while literally standing over her cousin's still warm corpse no less. How romantic....

    She went from....

    A ---> B ---> A (only "A" was much more poorly written the second time around, IMO)

    As for Sakura, in order to do something to piss me off Sakura would have to (by definition) do "something". Which would be a victory in and of itself.

    As for how she reverted, to you remember the whole "I can't let Naruto handle everything by himself resolution" she made? You remember how that ended. With her saying "I'll believe in Naruto." in other words "Let him handle everything".

    So she went from....

    A ---> B ---> A


    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Well, frankly, that's asking too much. Sasuke has never been a touchy-feely guy. For him to offer more than 3 syllables in any thoughful statement is too much. The pendulum on Sasuke is finally pulling away from raving lunatic to thoughtful individual again. For him to give a lengthy apology would be even a bigger trangression. Karin's return to the creepy, infatuated girl is a tad sad, however, Karin was a desperate, creepy girl to begin with. It's not catastrophic like Sasuke getting all mushy and offering speeches of apology to any girl he rejected. For a guy who spent his time cutting the bonds with everyone he knew to come rushing back is disasterous. It's still too early for that.
    Do you really think it's to much to ask? Some remorse for attempting to murder of somebody who loved and trusted him? Because if he can't figure out stabbing a comrade and leaving them to die is wrong, and isn't even noticeably bothered by it, then Kishimoto's characterization of him reveals him to be truly unworthy of redemption. And isn't he trying to make the case here that is something Sasuke is worthy of?

    And, of course, in creating that before mentioned horrible subtext about Karin's character; in her apparent acceptance of his lack of regard for her life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Well plotlines and character development don't need to go hand in hand. Part 1 was heavy on character development buy light on plot, Part two is the opposite. You want Kishi to delve into character development since you don't like the plot just chapters away from the final battles? Not gonna happen, that time has come to pass.
    Yes, they actually do need to go hand in hand. The two things are largely inseparable in fact because every story needs characters. And as characters live out a plot they live through various experiences and how these experiences effect them is the very core and nature of character development.

    Expecting a plot go on without character development is like expecting a person go on after their heart stops beating. Best case you get a lifeless zombie. (HaHA double entendre!)
    Last edited by Jammin; April 21, 2013 at 05:47 PM.
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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    I dunno why, but everyone from Taka gave off the vibe that they were accessory characters. Filler characters that have no effect on the storyline at all.

    Just like it's okay to not care what relationship the Ichiraku Ramen shop guy has with his daughter, it's okay that no one in Taka's motivations make sense, because they're inconsequential to the story. And for that alone I can't be bothered by anything out of the ordinary that they do. They're just there as an accessory to Sasuke. Maybe if we'd spent more time with her in the manga it'd matter. And maybe if we didn't already know she was a psycho.

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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I dunno why, but everyone from Taka gave off the vibe that they were accessory characters. Filler characters that have no effect on the storyline at all.

    Just like it's okay to not care what relationship the Ichiraku Ramen shop guy has with his daughter, it's okay that no one in Taka's motivations make sense, because they're inconsequential to the story. And for that alone I can't be bothered by anything out of the ordinary that they do. They're just there as an accessory to Sasuke. Maybe if we'd spent more time with her in the manga it'd matter. And maybe if we didn't already know she was a psycho.
    I dont know about that, its Suigetsu and Juugo who brought back Orochimaru with their scroll isnt it? that led to the summoning of the 4 kages and a lot of other stuff, they do seem a bit flat but I like those two a lot, particularly suigetsu.

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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Regarding Karin I have to say that I don't like what she did even if I must admit that it was really fun, especially for the expression that makes Sasuke when she rubs on him.
    I figured that Karin would have forgiven him, but I was hoping that it would not be in this way, that it would be so fast, and in any case I was hoping that Karin would have remained more detached, that she would have not be so sticky.

    Infact even if when she was showed us in this war (I don't remember in which chapter) she had a double personality, a side of her was violent when she was thinking to the time in which Sasuke stabbed her, but then when she saw Sasuke's photo she seemed that to be returned to be in love with him, I was hoping than that was all an act to distract the guards.

    In any case I really want to see Sakura's reaction when she will see Karin clinging to Sasuke.
    Anyways when Sakura will be informed of the truth regarding the extermination of the clan Uchiha, I believe she will go to help Sasuke, she will act as support for him just like recently Hinata did it for Naruto (I think that Hinata will assist Naruto even in the next chapters).

    What I think will be really interesting is to see the relationship between Karin and Sakura, they could fight for Sasuke attention and perhaps they will fight each others (not in a real fight, they will only try to determinate who can help Sasuke in the better way).
    Anyways even if it could be fun to see it, this would make it completely unrecoverable the character of Sakura (the best solution would be that Sakura will heal Sasuke, without bothering of Karin, while Karin would be jealously of Sakura).

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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    What...What, what romance and society? OK Hold on, back up, alright, just back up, wait up, back, hold on, put on the brakes for a second, just back up!

    Romance and Society??! In Naruto I'm reading?!?!

    Shhiiiee-...

    ...

    Other than Naruto opening a can of whoop-ass on someone every week and obnoxious dialogue, am I missing something here?

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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I dunno why, but everyone from Taka gave off the vibe that they were accessory characters. Filler characters that have no effect on the storyline at all.
    Probably because Kishi never intended to create them and was made to by his editor/s. So it's expected that he probably wouldn't spend that much effort developing them, especially given his handling of other characters.

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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Closed society? Where I am from isn't exactly a closed society. Women who act like that here with men need mental help. Abuse against women is not tolerated, even though it sadly occurs behind closed doors like in many other places.

    If a man threw acid on a woman and she still loved him, we would view her as insane or brainwashed. And get her away from that maniac.

    Kishi isn't making some statement about troubled and abused women through Karin and Sakura. We were suppose to laugh at that entire scene with Karin.
    That is your opinion. A mentally insane woman isn't capable enough of making decisions about her life. Sorry to say this. You are looking at this from your perspective only. Take into account those women, who literally get their body cut up to please men; genital and breasts surgeries come to mind. When in both scenarios consistent surgeries would reduce the healing process of the body and would make that portion age faster and in the latter's case, the actual sexual pleasure would be drastically reduced. Why do they still go through with it?

    What is your opinion on these women? Are they also mentally insane for deliberately spending money and getting surgeries done to put their bodies at a disadvantage? I don't believe in brainwash unless it's not an ideal/school of thought such as religion or nationalism. In both the cases, it's only belief. An individual is not asked to mutilate their genitals or body parts to please people. It's an ideology. These women DO exist and make up a considerable portion. In some of them this factor is low, in other medium, and then there are your Karin types.

    If you want to make a case that Kishimoto should have picked a 'liberated' personality type for some kind of lesson, then I am all for it. But I cannot simply agree with you when overwhelming evidence is against women in this regard.

    ---------- Post added April 22, 2013 at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was April 21, 2013 at 11:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Obito teleported him and Karin, so Sasuke wouldn't have had any idea where they were or the belief that they had been followed.
    They reached at the point where Danzo and his guards were still running to reach some destination to take refuge. This is a matter of commonsense that people would have followed Danzo as he was being tailed by Mizukage's guard. Come on.
    Last edited by shahdan; April 21, 2013 at 01:57 PM.

  19. #884
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    They reached at the point where Danzo and his guards were still running to reach some destination to take refuge. This is a matter of commonsense that people would have followed Danzo as he was being tailed by Mizukage's guard. Come on.
    Sasuke didn't know that. All he knew was being teleported out to a waiting Danzo as a "gift" from Obito. The preceding events of how Danzo got there or that he had been chased by the Mizukage's group were a complete unknown to him.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Romance & Society in Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke didn't know that. All he knew was being teleported out to a waiting Danzo as a "gift" from Obito. The preceding events of how Danzo got there or that he had been chased by the Mizukage's group were a complete unknown to him.
    Danzo was still running and they caught up to them. Isn't it a matter of common sense that not a lot of time had passed since they escaped?

    Mizukage interfered, that mush is a certainty. Any decently intelligent individual would guess that the interference can extend beyond the meeting room.

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