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A short answer would be to quote Master Dae himself in Scene 110:
"Try to give me the name of a warrior that has the potential to exceed these (Dae previously named former No. 1s Isley, Riffle and Luciela). Leaving aside whether they can exceed them or not. Number ones who died without awakening are..."
Dae's question is specifically about former No. 1s, not about No. 2s, 3s, 4s, etc.
It's unclear if only Dae is enumerating the No. 1s, or others are contributing. But the discussion on the table is specifically about former No. 1s. Thanks to Hege (I'm being sincere and not joking here), I am definitely reading the text more carefully. I too thought at first reading that the discussion was about all Claymore warriors.
And getting to Goral's post, females do gossip. Every time I get my hair done at the local beauty college, the things I hear! Please forgive the gender stereotypes, but I would question the number of "secrets" among the Claymore warriors. Not that every rumor is true, but there still must be a informal "grapevine" among the warriors. As Helen says, "We're only human!" :-)
And in a bit of foreshadowing, in Scene 110, Dae is already talking to Klimt about a possible Claymore rebellion. Which is why Klimt gave permission to reanimate the three former No. 1s.
Though this admittedly doesn't blunt Goral's observation about the Claymore rebellion being somewhat gratuitous at first appearance.
We'll just have to see what Yagi comes up with (mid-April, sigh...).
Last edited by jamie95403; March 31, 2011 at 02:09 PM.
The only thing is, if Miria et al. are able to talk with the reanimated No 1's before they fight or even during a fight, what's to stop the reanimateds from joining the rebellion if the evidence is compelling enough? There is no guarantee that a former warrior would remain loyal, especially if the Org can be traced back to their death in some way. It's because of this that I highly doubt Teresa would be one of the reanimateds since she'd already told the Org to buzz off after "adopting" Clare and the Org spent a fair amount of time and effort to kill her.
The Organization is after one single thing, "Controllable Power." I believe that Dae has revealed the three re-animated warrior's state of mind. He warned that any haste in the reanimation process would create three Abyssal Ones. Power wise, they equal the deceased Abyssal Ones.
Therefore, it stands to reason that the Organization has a means of controlling these reanimated warriors. Given that the Organization suspects betrayal within its ranks, it would make sense to make warriors that have ultimate allegiance. I fear that while Yagi has returned Miria to us, he will take back someone of equal importance. I've noticed this about some of the Japanese animes that I have watched. Sorrow often accompanies joy in the end.
wickedsmile: Power wise, they equal the deceased Abyssal Ones.
Answer: With the older generation of Abyss Ones dead, there is an imbalance of power on the island world. Does anyone think the three new "Abyssal Ones" (if in fact that's what they prove to be) will restore the balance of power on the island?
The mechanics of plot needs to resolve this imbalance. Lest the Org runs amok on the island (per Rabona Scene 108).
Despite the pending warrior rebellion, I suspect the Org will take Dylan Thomas' advice to heart and "Do not go gentle into that good night". There's going to be a lot of burning and raging at close of that day.
But as Teresa noted, there are things worse than Yoma: humans!
As for Rubel knowing about Claire and Priscilla... Of course he would! The corpses of Sophia and Noel proved a claymore had awoken. Their wounds would have made it obvious. Teresa was dead, which would leave either Ilena or Priscilla. Which of the two doesn't even matter at this point.
So, you're Rubel. A girl walks up to you carrying Teresa's head and demands to be taken in. Why would such a cute little girl want to join? There's only one logical reason: revenge. Aha. But against who? Well, obviously against whoever killed Teresa. Which means whatever killed Teresa can't have been a member of an org, or Claire wouldn't be trying to join. Aha! So the awakened claymore, either Ilena or Priscilla, killed Teresa. The org obviously realized Priscilla had been the one to awaken at some point. We may never know how and when they drew that conclusion, but I suspect Ilena's arm and pool of blood and Priscilla's lack of experience as a warrior led them down that road. And, as others pointed out, it's likely the org questioned Claire to find out the details. That's what people do when there are witnesses of an event they're interested in.
So, fast forward a few years to the start of the manga. How does Rubel know about Claire and Priscilla? Because it's a no-brainer. There is no reason to assume he observed any of it.
I'm not saying it's impossible Rubel was there. The idea of 2-5 hunting down no 1 probably would have interested him, and it wouldn't be surprising if he did go to check things out. And yes, if he watched, it'd make sense for him to purposefully pick up Claire afterwards. But beyond these 'likelihoods', we know nothing.
For all we know Dae was just around the corner, dancing the tango in a pink tutu dress and singing "oh Teresa please die quickly so I can carve up your lovely corpse" in soprano. Ok, not likely, but you get the point. There is no reason to assume Dae didn't get Teresa's corpse, just wishful theorizing.
So then, why doesn't Dae know it's Priscilla's arm?
Simple. Because he doesn't know Priscilla is beyond powerful. Keep in mind, she was a mere number 2 when she awakened. The org knew she had potential to become number one. What the org doesn't know is that all that potential was released when she awoke. The power a claymore obtains when awakening depends on a multitude of factors and is thus unpredictable. Also, don't forget that Priscilla behaved nothing like the other abysymals. She didn't settle down and didn't show off her power. She didn't conquer a territory. She didn't gather underlings. She did nothing to genuinly seize the org's attention, other than her killing spree - but which AB doesn't kill like there's no tomorrow?
Therefore, the org has no reason to conclude Priscilla is anywhere near powerful enough to suppress the destroyer. Therefore they have no reason to assume it's Priscilla's arm. Therefore, Dae asks who's arm it is.
Your theories are fun to read, but you convert theories into 'facts' far too easily.
Last edited by Nefnora; April 01, 2011 at 10:13 AM.
my conclusions are based on the supporting manga content below, so I don't think my conclusions are "hasty" or incorrect/wrong, but I could be wrong, but based on what I am using to support this, I don't think so.
I know someone else who had their page of ~12 (ch 110 page ~12), so the page number can be off depending on what version/source you're using
1. ch 110 page 15: the other BCs did NOT know about Priscilla, they were completely unaware of Awakened Priscilla until they found "the arm" (Priscilla's) impaled in Raki's back.
you make a good point, that indeed the other BCs (Orsay and maybe Ermita) had seen Teresa+Clare, HOWEVER, the problem is that there's a second step that only Rubel is capable of doing, which he did, and that is to make the connection between Clare+Teresa and Clare+Raki, because only he knows what happened to Clare+Teresa, Priscilla decapitating Teresa and than Awakening, causing trauma, loathing (of HERSELF, not Priscilla), and revenge for poor Clare.
Orsay only saw Clare once, even he couldn't fully understand just how much of a bond that they had, from one look, but Rubel understood their bond intimately, as he had to have been there, secretly spying on them the entire time, as because of his intimate knowledge of Clare and Teresa, only he could and did make the connection that he did in seeing Clare+Raki together, and thus his astute warning/chiding of her, to beware of making the same mistake as Teresa made with her.
if it wasn't for ch 110 page 15, you'd have a very good argument, but because of ch 110 page, because the other BCs did NOT know anything of Priscilla's existence, including Awakened Priscilla, thus they knew not how Teresa was killed, and thus Clare also never devolged about Priscilla to them. The other BCs knew not how Teresa was killed, knew not that Priscilla had Awakened, knew not about Priscilla the Claymore nor Priscilla the Trainee. Priscilla was Rubel's secret Trainee, Claymore, and SAO (Super Abyssal One). Rubel had he had personally traineed Clare in EVERYTHING that she knew. So, we have proof that Rubel is extremely capable, of "raising" a Claymore all on his own, unknown to the rest of the BC. And, Rubel did catch the sword tossed by Trainee Clare with only one hand, and it didn't even move at all from the force/contact of it. So, that "non-warrior" looking Rubel, seems to know combat, or at the very least, he's not a human, as that was a display of inhuman strength, not even Galk had such strength. I can't remember if Raki was using his BROADSWORD (not quite a Claymore's claymore sword) with one hand or not, and am too lazy to go back and look, lol.
Orsay saw Clare+Teresa ONLY twice at a single "glance":
A. Rokut town, with the bandits, and subsequent enforcement of the Ironclad Rule, lol.
B. the first "execution" of Teresa with the "Ring of Claymores"
Teresa did say to Orsay that she found a ~"reason to live, as she found her happiness, and that she didn't regret her 'violating' the Organization"
So, Orsay does know that Teresa cares for Clare, but that's a far cry from the leap of Rubel understanding the deva ju of Clare+Raki in regards to Teresa+Clare. That's not something that can be gleamed from what Orsay knew. Rubel had to be there in person, secrety spying/voyeuring on Teresa+Clare, for MUCH of their time together, as well as being the ONLY one to witness (and thus know about) the Awakening of Priscilla, when Priscilla decapitated Teresa, and subsequently Awakened.
Ermita? only possibly saw Teresa+Clare once, however I think he did NOT, as I think he actually arrived afterwards, and thus never saw Teresa+Clare:
A. Orsay tells a BC (who to me looks like it's Ermita, but maybe I'm wrong), to gather the ranks 2-5* to execute Teresa.
*rank 2 Irene, rank 3 Sophia, rank 4 Noel, and rank 5 Elda**
**Due to ch 110 page 15 's relevation that none of the other BCs knew of Priscilla, Rubel must have secretly invected Priscilla into the execution squad without the other BCs knowing of it, by using Irene, taking Irene to see Priscilla killing some Yoma, which immediately prompted Irene to yield her rank 2 status to Priscilla, thus changing the execution squad***, and obviously she and Rubel never told the other BCs about it.
***rank 2 Priscilla, rank 3 Irene, rank 4 Sophia, and rank 5 Noel****
Priscilla now being at rank 2, bumped the now rank 6 Elda out of the execution squad of ranks 2-5.
if Rubel estrapulated all of it out of rationale/reasoning/logic, than so too could the other BCs, yet according to ch 110 page 15, they did not estrapulate that Teresa had been killed by a SAO (Super Abyssal One), as they were made aware of this SAO for their very first time, when they were gazing upon it's arm upon the floor, tossed by Dae, and they were all disturbed that for this entire time, they had no idea that something this powerful had existed! (All except Rubel, hehe, as he was the ONLY one who already knew of Awakened Priscilla, of this SAO, hehe)
2. (see above). yes, according to ch 110 page 15, ONLY rubel knew of what had happened that resulted in Teresa's death. And if Rubel's the only one to know, that means he had to have been there witnessing/watching/spying on it, unknown to everyone, even Teresa and Priscilla, and us the readers, lol.
Rubel did NOT interrogate the info out of lil child Clare. Because there's another scene where Clare talks about Teresa+Priscilla to Rubel, as if she never told him already about it, thus indeed she did NOT tell Rubel about Teresa+Priscilla, thus indeed Rubel didn't interogate the info out of her back when she was younger. (I can provide the source for this, if interested)
3.this is wrong. see ch 110 page 15. what you say above directly conflicts and is in contradiction with ch 110 page 15. your speculating does not take into account ch 110 page 15 which directly says your speculazations are incorrect. the other BCs are clearly seen NOT having any idea of who this arm belongs to, they had NO idea that a being this powerful had existed this entire time, they knew nothing about Priscilla (It was RUBEL who said to Clare that Priscilla was thought to have the potential to surpass Teresa, NO other BC ever mentions about Priscilla at all!), and they are disturbed that they now have a being besides the Destroyer that is even more powerful than the AOs, and had not known about it.Originally Posted by Nefnora
speaking of facts....
do you have any sources to back up your speculations as being correct? (of the quote of yours that I have above)
chapter and page numbers? I'd like to see them, as if I'm wrong, I'd like correct my mistake and get the truth. So, can you please provide chapter and page numbers where the manga shows any of the other (non-Rubel) BCs knowing about Priscilla, prior to Dae tossing Priscilla's arm on the floor in ch 110. Find a single chapter and page number of any BC mentioning Priscilla, and I'll be wrong, and your speculations will be right, will be facts. Just a single chapter and page number where a single BC (other than Rubel) mentions about Priscilla, prior to Dae tossing her arm on the floor.
ask for any source of mine of what I've said, and I will and can provide it, as well! As I have to prove what I say too, to have any validity
from a logical POV:
NO BC is going to forget a mere month or few months old, new Rookie Claymore that has the potential to surpass THEE Teresa of the Faint Smile!
That's not something you would forget... or be unaware of...
that's like the high school coach forgetting he had micheal jordan on his team... impossible!
or forgetting that there was this like 5 year old black kid... and not realizing he had grown up into the tiger woods as one of the greatest golfer's ever!
or someone who knew President Obama as a kid, and not realizing/remembering that kid, who is now the President of the U.S.
or mozart, he was a child prodigy, who's going to forget a child who can already play better than anyone else?
you don't forgot and/or become unaware of people who are "born" with such potential or ability, lol.
so, it's the same with Priscilla, you don't forget and/or become unaware of the Claymore that you thought would be the most powerful being ever, lol. (well, Priscilla wasn't thee most powerful being, as Teresa made clear, but she's definately then the 2nd most powerful being, excluding speculation about the unknown Destroyer)
When you think of the Chicago Bulls, you don't forget and/or become unaware of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, hehe , or the LA Raiders with Bo Jackson and Marcus Allen )
if the BCs had known about a Rookie Claymore with the (presumed) potential to surpass Teresa of the Faint Smile to become the most powerful being ever, than how would they not connect "the arm" to this Rookie Claymore? Why are they listing rank 1's, and not immediately saying, "It's Priscilla! It can only be her, as only she had that power, as we know Teresa's dead who could also have that power!"
I challenge anyone to try to find a single chapter and page number where any BC (other than Rubel) makes mentioning/referencing of that they know of/about Priscilla and her existence, as a Trainee, a Claymore, or as an Awakened.
If someone is able to find just a single source, chapter and page number, than my entire view seen in the previous posts of this thread crumbles and I'm 100% wrong/incorrect on this subject
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 01, 2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
One question, just one.
Did Ophelia brother was not killed by single horned daemon? Is that was not the reason, She become Claymore, and that was for sure the reason why Clare won against Her, when Ophelia mentioned this, to found revenge by Her and Herself?
So did back then Org was not informed about massacre of whole City / Town? So what kind of informants They have? I think that They knew, but didn't know identity of AB, because Priscilla was still wandering due north to Alfonse.
This could be some link between above discussions. What do You think about that?
Have a nice day
Last edited by colonywars; April 01, 2011 at 01:24 PM.
Hege: I'd like to see them, as if I'm wrong, I'd like correct my mistake and get the truth.
Answer: To everyone including myself: Claymore is a work of imagination. There are no "mistakes" we can make and whatever truth or "truth" there is, is yours alone.
I enjoy debating Hege on his speculations with my own, and appreciate the passions that we feel (meaning we really care about Claymore---no bad thing). I apologize to Hege if my comments may have encouraged others to comments a bit too passionately against his ingenious arguments.
Certainly, my own reading of Claymore has greatly improved as I've debated Hege. Due to his speculations, I've discovered my own personal misreadings, as well as mistranslations (scanlation and VIZ).
Between plot holes, time gaps, bad translations and scanlations and numerous misreadings (which I myself am guilty of), there's plenty of room for speculations for everyone.
Let's all have fun with Claymore and not get too serious!
Last edited by jamie95403; April 01, 2011 at 02:12 PM.
you're info about Ophelia is correct, but there's no mentioning/referencing within it, of the BCs knowing about Priscilla. Yes, one might suppose Ophelia would tell them, but we don't know if she did or didn't, we need proof as my challenge still stands of any of the BCs mentioning/referencing knowledge/awareness of Priscilla's existence. However, Ophelia did NOT tell her BC, Ermita, about Hilda nor Miria being a HA, instead she told Rubel... or he "got her to tell him about Miria being a HA". So, we have direct evidence that Ophelia is more inclined to keep secrets from the BCs (except Rubel) than to tell stuff to the BCs.
Galatea, despite hearing about the "One Horned Demon" from Riful, never knew who Priscilla was, nor did she make the connection between this "One Horned Demon" and the Priscilla trapped inside of the Destroyer along with Clare, as the "blob of 3 (or 4)". For what it is worth, in Galatea's defense, merely hearing about an "One Horned Demon" who was subjugated by AO Isley the Silver King (at this time, Riful didn't know that it was actually the reverse, hehe), wouldn't send off any "alarms" for Galatea, as Galatea never received any mentioning of how powerful this "One Horned Demon" was, for all Galatea knew, this could be an ordinary weak AB. Galatea had no way or reason to know that this "One Horned Demon" was an SAO (Super Abyssal One).
The challenge still stands, as there's nothing within the Ophelia case, towards the challenge, still no mentioning/referencing of Priscilla by a BC (other than Rubel).
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 01, 2011 at 06:50 PM.
HegemonKhan I simply just can not believe that Org, except Rubel, does not know something about slaughtering whole Ophelia's Town / Village / City. And I just put this as an example of "plot hole". Which about ones jamie95403 already mentioned.
And did They know then who / what was responsible for that is another question I am asking, just like You did Thus this event, except reminiscence from Ophelia side was never mentioned in manga so this question will stayed unanswered
Have a nice weekend
any Awakened or even a mere NY could have done that (killing her brother) to Ophelia, and we don't even know if there was an entire town or not... maybe it was just Ophelia and her brother living alone in a single cottage together ... and... having their "playful"... cough incest cough... "fun and games" with each other... lol....
we have proof of weak normal Awakeneds or even NYs being used to Raze towns, Dietrich's town, Rabona (attempted and failed), and the "Yoma Nest" town where the 4 executions of Teresa first meet.
humans are weak, any AB or even a group/army of NYs, can Raze a town, the most powerful Awakened living (excluding the unknown Destroyer) is NOT needed to Raze a merely human town, lol.
you, me, and anyone, can believe anything, but the challenge is asking for proof, of a confirmed accurate belief. a chapter and page number showing that a BC (other than Rubel) has any type of knowledge or awareness of Priscilla
"everyone has opinions, but not everyone has an informed/accurate opinion" -(unknown)
your belief makes complete sense, but the problem is that I was able to make a counter argument to it, as seen above, so who's belief is right? mine or yours? that's why as much as your belief might make sense, it's no good, nor is mine (above). That's why we need proof, to actually settle, which it is. ch 110 page 15 is suggestive in my view's favor.
if you can find a single instance of a BC knowing about Priscilla, than that would over-ride ch 110 page 15, and your view would be right.
and there's still the ignoring of ch 110 page 15:
how do you address the shocked reactions by all of the BCs, and them being unable to name Priscilla, when Dae throws Priscilla's arm on the floor?
Are they ALL faking their facial and body reactions? are they ALL feigning to not know who's arm it is?
a point-argument I just thoguht of:
and if they had Teresa's body.... wouldn't they know the true power level of Teresa, just as they have shown they're able to know the power level of Priscilla's arm, and with that knowledge of Teresa's power level of her body, than why would they care about Priscilla's arm? As many of us believe that Teresa is more powerful than Priscilla, and even Awakened priscilla as well, and so surely a near entire body (minus head and hands) of Teresa would be more drooled over than merely an arm of Priscilla's, lol
I enjoy debating, so please don't take any of my posts the wrong way, I'm not in any way intending to be rude or personal! I just like debates a lot and get passionate with them! If you feel there's any bashing or rudeness or personal attacks or etc in my posts, let me know, or report my post(s)!
The rules of the site applies to everyone, and that certainly means me!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 01, 2011 at 03:21 PM.
How about this Org assessment of Priscilla? (BTW, it does not prove nor disprove anyone's speculations)
Yes, it's been on this and other forums numerous times. But the question here is "Who in the Org did the assessment of Priscilla's stats?"
Of course, colonywars knows: Yagi!
I like your quote, Hege. It reminds me of:
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed."
— Mark Twain
Last edited by jamie95403; April 01, 2011 at 06:56 PM.
hmm, the data books are interesting. (I'm ignoring my biasedness against them, lol. As I personally think they're 100% IR-relevant, lol)
though again, how does the databook contend with these two problems:
1. ch 110 page 15, with the BCs not having any idea* that there has been an Awakened Priscilla since Teresa's death?
*based on their facial and body language of shock and their lack of knowing that it's Priscilla's arm as seen with them doing a "run-through" of their rank 1 Claymores.
2A. according to ch 110 page 15, no BC could write the data book about Priscilla.... except one... Rubel
2B. we don't know which BC wrote the databooks, it could very well be Rubel himself who writes the databooks, so even the databooks don't show that the BCs know about Priscilla.
so far, all of your attempts have been great and are very possible and believable and make a lot of sense, but for me personally, none of them work, as for each one, there's an alternative explaination for them, and thus we don't have anything concrete that the BCs know about Priscilla.
This is just my own personal view. For each of your arguments, I provided an alternative that works just as well to explain your arguments in favor of them not determining that the BCs know of Priscilla. So, which option is it? your option or my option? THUS, each of your arguments fail to conclude that the BCs know about Priscilla.
an example of the recent argument: Priscilla's databook
Jamie: the databooks show stats on Priscilla, so the BCs have to know about Priscilla!
HK: um, no. Do we know who wrote the data books? NO! Do we know which BC wrote the databooks? NO! Therefore, for all we know, Rubel could have wrote the databooks, thus still maintaining that the other BCs know nothing about Priscilla. Rubel knows about Priscilla, and so he could have been the writer of the databook on Priscilla, as the sole BC who knows about Priscilla. So, your argument fails to prove that any one of the other BCs know about Priscilla.
that's my rational/thinking/thought-process/logic of why I feel none of your arguments have yet to prove that a BC (other than Rubel) knows about Priscilla, just for this recent argument (using the databooks) that jamie has presented.
-I'm just personally not convinced of any of your arguments meeting the challenge of showing irrefutably of another BC besides Rubel knowing about Priscilla.
-if either of you feel you have, that's fine too. "We agree that we disagree" (I hate this saying, as it's always used referenced, and really means nothing, lol, but meh).
-so, you can than choose if you want to continue to try to find an argument or source to get me to change my mind that Rubel is the ONLY BC shown to know about Priscilla or we can just leave the debate/challenge as unsettled or me just stubbornly unconvinced and unchanging in my views just as I'm sure both of you are stubbornly sure of your views too which is a good thing!
stubbornness is good, keep clinging to your views, as I will with mine too, hehe!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 01, 2011 at 08:00 PM.
If they made it a priority to pick up all the pieces of Roxanne then I see absolutely no reason for them to not have retrieved Teresa's corpse and hands. While the Org didn't know the full extent of her powers (I have my doubts about that when it comes to Rubel), she was still considered the most powerful number 1 in Claymore history, IMO they would have made it a a priority to retrieve her body.Quote: