Male AB's compared to female AB's

[Gallygun]

First off, I love this manga. Heck, I read it online and then went out and bought the entire series in English all in one fell swoop (lucky I did it when I did; some of the volumes from Viz are going out of print!).

But I was wondering if anyone else had noticed the difference in physical appearance between male Awakened Beings and female Awakened Beings?

The male types are always mostly devoid of any resemblance of human form, they look like all-out monsters. But the female AB's always have a very recognizable female form somewhere in their design. And that female form is always very sexualized and even obscene.

I know that since this is a shonen-esque manga that their "has to be" sex appeal, and that since the writer/artist is a man, he probably designs not only what his male fanbase likes to see, but also designs he likes as well.

What I find funny is that this manga is filled with strong women. They are the central focus of the story, and yet their most powerful Awakened forms could be construed as degrading and sexist.

Granted, much of the story revolves around how fully awakened warriors/half-breeds have lost their humanity altogether, so maybe Yagi is portraying the female AB's as more animalistic/inhuman by depicting them as being shamelessly nude.

I also understand that if the male AB's were depicted the same way (like if Isley were a sexy shirtless man-toy instead of what he actually is), that the image of frightening power would never be achieved. And if all the AB's looked sexualized (male and female), that the manga would be taken less seriously, maybe even look like a joke/comedy manga.

I still don't like the overly sexual images of the female AB's, though. Because they are hard to respect as terrifying creatures when they have "feminine attributes" sticking out left and right.

I love what Yagi did with Riful and Priscilla's designs; they are clearly female (in awakened form), yet they still are monstrous and beautiful, without the silly random female parts that don't fit in with the rest of the design.

I just want to know what other people think of this. I mean, it's fine if the sexualized design fits the "personality" the the female AB, but to have it on all but two of them?

Thoughts?

[wickedsmile]

Hi Gallygun:

I do agree with your observations. There is quite a bit of difference in how Yagi has drawn the female ABs and the male ABs. Hilda, Ophelia, Rosemary, Luciella, Riful, Alicia, Priscilla, Beth and Agatha have retained an essence of their human form. Even with Rosemary that looks like a coconut crab or a scorpion, you can distinguish the woman's human figure.

I don't agree with your assessment of Yagi's sense of propriety in drawing the female ABs. Yes, on certain characters such as Rosemary, Ophelia and Beth, you can cleary see a womans nude physiology. However, that doesn't translate into obscenity. Even with Blood Bath Agatha, which he drew fully nude, I do not see anything obscene. I believe that Yagi drew her in this manner to highlight the contrast between form and mind. He drew a very attractive character with a very dark and hideous persona.

I purchased the Claymore Memorabilia book and there are quite a few pictures that depict a woman's nake figure. Obscene and vulgar are adjectives I would "NEVER" associate with the quality of those drawings.

However, I do grow tired of seeing the males depicted as grotesque monsters. Perhaps Yagi will reveal his reasoning for drawing the male ABs in this fashion during later chapters. Of the male ABs, Isley clearly has the most striking figure that has also retained a semblence of his human form. You can clearly see a being of power and regal stature. When Miria recounted what Rubel had told her, she said that the male claymores awakened quickly and went beserk. I wonder if the form is a projection of the individual's madness?

ws

[HegemonKhan]

I'll stay out of this (after this single post), as I probably would have trouble responding appropriately, but I completely disagree with nearly everything you said, Gally.

I will say this though, as I have to defend my favorite manga, Claymore, as I feel (IMO) you've made multiple and eggregiously erronous/false statements about it, which needs a counter statement to challenge it:

Gally:

Claymore does have nudity, but almost ZERO sexuality. Don't confuse artistic (accurate art, females DO have "chests" and "bottoms", and so DO males for that matter) and literary (plot/story and/or character development purposed) nudity, with the shallow pointless gratuitious porn'ish fanservice nakedness, unrealistic sized female "chests", and suggestive situations or actions, that is just for male audience's enjoyment, all of which is seen in nearly every other shounen and type of manga for matter.

Claymore is the LEAST fanservicing manga of nearly all the shounens or any type of manga for that matter, ...

... and excuss me, but the female Claymores/Awakeneds are extremely admired, respected, and not in the SLIGHTEST seen as mere "eye-candy" by this male, me. ...

... I see them almost like traditionally heroic males in stories and NOT "a pretty damsel in distress for a male audience to drool over, and who then has that rescuing male character's babies happily ever after" (this is a real derogatory, sexist, and harmful display of females), as they certainly are NOT "damsels in distress", lol ...

... Female Claymores are "hard-core killing machines" (or "Living Weapons" as they're described by the Org's BCs in the manga), who don't play around and goof off like normal girls, in fact we almost never see them doing any recreational stuff at all, they're all about their business, and that business is slaying Yoma

... I find what you said, extremely insulting and erroneous, to Yagi, to his work, Claymore, and to all the female Claymore and Awakened characters in Claymore.

I'm a bit shocked that it seems that you are the only one (so far that I know of to date) seeing them in such a deragatory and totally erronous/mis-guided way (IMO only).

And, I don't understand the difference between Priscilla's "chest" and the other (female) Claymores'/Awakeneds' "chests". Why do you like Priscilla, who has the same "chest" size and nude display of "it" as some of the other (female) Claymores/Awakeneds, but you don't like the other (female) Claymores/Awakeneds? You saying that you like Riful, made me think that you just despised the larger "chested" female characters discriminatingly, but saying you like Priscilla too, eliminates this possibility, as she is one of those "larger" (which still a very realistic size, unlike in most other mangas) "chested" female characters. So, I'm confused as to why your negativity/dislike towards Claymore manga.

Hmm... maybe you're not liking that the female Awakeneds often retain their or partially retain their female human forms? This is a literary (story/plot) reason, they resist the Yoma better then the males do, thus it makes perfect sense to me, that they can retain some of their human female body forms while in their Awakened body forms.

But, this isn't accurate either by you and me, because the male Awakeneds retain their or partially retain their male human forms too. Isley is a Centaur, thus he is partially retaining his male human form, as a Centaur is half horse half man. Rigardo is a "Were-Lion", thus he's half lion half man, just like a Were-Wolf is half wolf half man. Dauf keeps his human form too for the most part, though he gets a lot bigger and a bit more monsterous appearance.

Or, hmm... Maybe you just detest the naked female Awakeneds? Well, I hope they don't get clothes stuck on them, as that would look stupid, and it would detract from the literary artistry, as they ARE suppose to be MONSTERS after all. But, again this isn't accurate by you, as the male Awakeneds are naked too. You can see the "chests" and "bottoms" of BOTH male and female Awakeneds.

The female Claymores and Awakeneds are excellent role models with real bodies (well, the Claymores anyways, but excluding their ripped muscles, lean bodies, and superhuman abilities, lol) for girls/women and boys/men alike! (Well not the "bad" ones, lol)

And, I'll offer a helpful suggestion for you as well:

If you're bothered by Claymore, I'd suggest you don't look at any other manga, with their unrealistic upper female body part sizes, rampant fanservice ("upshots" or clothes ripping/coming off purely for the male audience's enjoyment), and the deluge of upper female body part (again, often involving unrealistic sizes) jokes/humor as well.

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WS:

There's very few Awakened males, and even fewer significant Awakened males.

But of the significant ones, they are quite unique and well developed artistically:

Isley, Rigardo, Dauf, and the 3 "scout/recon" male ABs just prior to the main Pieta Battle.

So, you forgot:

Rigardo, Dauf, and the 3 "scout/recon" male ABs just prior to the main Pieta Battle.

We see these male Awakeneds in their humanoid forms, just like we do with Isley.

the "classical/common Emo manga male" appearanced Rigardo

Dauf is a "dumb brute" in his humanoid form

I'm too lazy to go back to look at the 3 "scout/recon" male ABs just prior to the main Pieta Battle, in order to describe them for you, lol. You can go back and look at them.

and then there's the non-Awakened males:

The BCs (Rimuto, Rubel, Orsay, Ermita, Rado, and Dae), the "Elite" Rabona soldiers (Galk and Cid/Sid), the Rabona Clergymen (such as Father Vincent), and lastly there's Raki (Child and Adult).

And we both forgot:

the NYs! (all of them are male, though, they are all the same, generic, lol)

[wickedsmile]

Hi HK:

I can understand Gally's point of in the matter and didn't find her post eggregious or insulting. I think you hit the mark in your assessment though. There is a difference between nudity, sexuality and their implications through the artist's depictions. To illustrate this difference, look at the photo of Demi Moore in Vanity Fair. Annie Leibovitz took the photo of a nude pregnant Demi Moore. It clearly shows the figure of a fully nude woman. However, there's a great different in what Leibovitz portrayed versus what you see in any adult smut publication.

Concerning the male ABs, I should have clarified my view. Yagi drew Isley, Dauf and Rigardo with exequisite care because each character played a major role in the story. The blind mass of male ABs that attacked Org. HQ, Anastasia, Rabona and Riful had generic gigantic monsters.

It's actually refreshing to discuss the artist's intent instead discussing warrior power levels and youki strength.

ws

[HegemonKhan]

(so much for staying out of this, after my first post, argh! It's an interesting subject for me, sighs)

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Well, Raki (or "pretty boy" Isley as Luciela called him, *) is a bit annoying for males, don't we all wish we were perfect in personality and body like him, lol... sooo jealous of Raki (or Isley), it's sooo "unfair" !!!!! They need to start making more REAL male characters!!! hmph!! (j/k, but it gets my point across, I hope)

So, I see the same being done with the males, as the females, so that's mostly why I don't understand nor agree with Gally's assessment/post.

*I'm not sure about wanting to be "emo" Rigardo or "ugly and dumb" Dauf... they're probably not that flattering to most girls, lol.

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I do understand that female depictions of fanservice for male audiences is more "flashy", though females ARE more "flashy" than males, and for whatever reason, the male depictions of fanservice for female audiences is more ignored, taken for granted, or not even realized, except for us males when we see male characters in thongs... ARGH! with thus, I understand where Gally is coming from, I could soooo do without seeing male characters in thongs! (but don't take away our fanservice of female characters, hehe, many of us, do enjoy it, lol. So, in fairness I can't actually complain about male characters in thongs or having unreal bodies)

I mean, how many of us males are upset/jealous of seeing Goku or Ichigo or Naruto or whoever, with a great perfect good-looking, lean, and ripped body, when many of us aren't so "blessed" (we're fat and/or ugly)? It's the same as females being upset/jealous of seeing female characters with larger/large sized "chests" or skinny/lean bodies and wide round bottoms/hips. We males, just don't voice such a "hubbub" about the perfect and extreme bodied male characters as females do about the perfect and extreme bodied female characters.

And lastly, let's not forget or ignore that male charaters (such as and especially in DBZ with Goku and other male characters) are often seen ripping off or losing their clothes, to show off their perfect bodies (good-looking and ripped) too. Female characters aren't the only ones losing their clothes!

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Mmmmm k. Gallygun, Yagi never draws anything (at least in Claymore) that is gratuitous, perverse, or anything of a sort. There is a lot of nudity in Claymore and some of the images are "artistically sensual" if it fits the characters as was the case with Agatha. However even this minimal amount of sensuality is done for the art because it stays in league with the portrayal of the characters.

The reason why female AB's are drawn with more semblance to their human forms is because even in Awakening females lose less of themselves to their yoma sides than men. It has nothing to with sexuality and it has little to do with Claymore being shonen. It's about the art and the consistency to the plot. Come and take a walk with me.

We are told that when the organization created Claymores, the men tended to awaken almost immediately while the females had more restraint and were less likely to give in. In the same manner, because males experience a sense of, shall we say gratification not only are they prone to awakening more quickly, but they are even more apt to lose themselves "completely" to their transformation. The reason why male AB's look monstrous while female AB's look, well, let's just say they don't look as monstrous is because when males transform they physically lose themselves in their entirety. Of course you got guys like Rigardo, Dauf, and Isley who can revert to a human form but obviously they're monstrous when they awaken.

By that same token, we can say that the final appearance of ones transformation their awakening is tantamount to how powerful they are ultimately. The more powerful the AB the less human they will look. Of course my argument hits a snag when we look at Priscilla (and we love to look at Priscilla giggity) so I'll use a different method.

It could simply be testosterone. That's it. Male AB's are more monstrous because of the reaction caused by the combination of yoma DNA and testosterone. Because yoma DNA is bound to make an individual more aggressive and more monstrous (given that yoma themselves are aggressive monsters) then it reasonable enough to assume that those traits will be amplified in males. We can also infer that the degree of mutation, i.e., transformation, i.e., awakening is directly linked to the amount of testosterone in the Claymore's DNA. In which case, the males would mutate to a greater degree than females, thus providing the reason why male AB's look that way they do and female AB's look the way they do.

If there are any others questions I will do my best to assist.

[MDave]

When the awakened beings transform, they can't do like the hulk and keep their shorts or tops on, because they usually grow waaaaay to big for the clothes to realistically stay on them. Alicia and Beth are exceptions to this, as well as the new twins because their awakened forms only transform their limbs and heads, and because they are the organizations warriors they need to keep wearing their armor and suits as Claymore soldiers when they return to human form. It's probably a special limit/modification the organization did to their awakened forms. Makes me think if the organization actually can control what sort of youma powers/transformations they give to to new claymore warriors.

Any other awakened being not a claymore doesn't have to worry about something as trivial as clothes when they are monsters and killing / survival is much more important then their dignity. When all is said and done, the ones that have already regained their mind after awakening, go fetch some clothes again, like Riful does. She seems to care about looking after her clothes :P see the scene just before she is fighting the abyssal eaters/feeders and Beth/Alicia.

[HegemonKhan]

well, it means poor Riful has to travel into a town, and go buy some more dresses, lol, as she can't send her stupid-ugly Dauf to do so, like he can - like he has the intelligence to engage in shopping and counting prices, not to mention being swindled too, hehe. So, she didn't want to get her LAST dress ripped/torn to shreds in battle or from changing into her Awakened form

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the manga actually mentions about Alicia+Beth:

they're unusual Black Claymore outfit clothing is specially made to stretch to handle their Awakening. The Org doesn't want to keep providing them new Claymore outfits as well, lol.

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Mmmmm k, but clothes tearing doesn't really have anything to do with what Gallygun was arguing. Gallygun was referring to the reasons why female AB's physical resemble females while males resemble monsters. Gallygun further misinterpreted the reasons for this as being lewd in nature. I have since clarified any misunderstanding.

[MDave]

Indeed it doesn't have anything to do with what gallygun was arguing.

I felt like talking about reasons why Yagi went the result we see, to fit the story and the sense of realism he aims for with such a drama/serious story focused manga.

Because it isn't like other shounen where clothes might somehow magically stay on covering all the necessary bits (like HSDK or even FT), it's easy for some to see that it's sexualized strongly for the female characters, if only because they have more private parts to show/hide. Simple really!

[HegemonKhan]

while the males are monstrous in appearance (and so are the females too, they ARE monstrous in appearance just as much as the males are), they still keep their masculine qualities, with larger muscles and similar masculine builds. Many of them remain bipedal and male human like, excluding their monstrous appearance changes.

the NYs especially are VERY *MALE HUMAN LIKE* in appearance, so I'm again not seeing at all what Gally sees in this supposed sexual discrimination between the male and female characters. look at the NY that Teresa kills for her "introduction" to us (chopping off his arm and then stepping her booted heel onto his head and stabbing his head with her sword and then twisting her sword inside his head and then whipping off the blood on her sword unto the human townsfolk, hehe), he's like a male human body builder with huge bulging muscles with of course some monstrous features of course too.

I really don't see the female ABs looking more human female than the male ABs looking more human male. They BOTH retain their masculine and feminine forms.

All I can see from Gally's observation is that their females, they have more defined breasts, as females indeed do. But, we see the same bare masculine breasts on the male ABs as well. Yes, Gally's right that females and males have different breast appearances, lol, but thus why I won't ever understand where her sexualization comes from. The male characters (including the male Awakeneds) are just as BARE chested as the female characters (including the female Awakeneds) are BARE chested.

If Gally simply has a problem with the type of breasts that females indeed do have being females vs males... that's something entirely else... maybe Yagi can have the Org create steroid pills and inject them into all their female Claymores/Awakeneds, so that their feminine breasts change into masculine breasts.

[jamie95403]

I can only offer the speculation that Yagi's familiarity with artists of the past is what influences the shape of the Awakened Beings, as well as Claymores.

The possible influence of the Expressionism of Egon Schiele (Shire) (1890–1918) and Erich Godal (1899–1969), and the various periods of Pablo (Paburo) Picasso (1881–1973) may be seen in the Yoma entities, just as the the idealized female form of the Claymore warriors may have been influenced by the Art Nouveau style of Alfons Mucha (1860–1939). Sometimes Yagi even has a Toulouse-Lautrec (1864–1901) or Edgar Degas (Doga) (1834–1917) Impressionist moment with some of characters in the series.

All of these artists have had criticisms in the past, criticisms which are now being repeated against Yagi (the more things change, the more they stay the same). Now I'd be the very last person to say the critics of the past and present are wrong. But I'd be the very last person to say that they are right, either.