Zaraki Kenpachi vs Tia Harribel

[UchihaHunter]

Again, I feel like bringing up this ultimate attack is irrelevant. I don't think anyone would have predicted that Starrk's new attack was going to be wolves, or that Soi Fon's bankai was going to be a rocket launcher, so why are we assuming that we know what Harribel's attack is going to be? We know it'll involve water of some sort, that is it. We don't know the scale, we don't know the power, etc.

Furthermore, Kenpachi was fighting off the 5th and 0th Espada in HM, which some of you all argued made Ulquiorra's feats irrelevant due to the boost that he received. Yet, people are here arguing that in a neutral environment, Harribel is going to completely outclass Kenpachi? Fire off a Cascada larger than Yammy's cero? You do realize she only used one Cascada in the entire fight with Hitsugaya, right? And that he easily blocked it and kept going...she obviously preferred to use La Gota to increase the moisture, rather than continuously use Cascada, so Cascada probably takes a lot of reiatsu on her part, otherwise, it would've made more sense to just use 2-3 of those and shorten the time.

Not to mention that we KNOW Yammy had more reiatsu AND was in HM; I doubt her Cascada would end up being bigger than Yammy's cero, especially without Hitsugaya's ice/water to use to make it bigger.

Furthermore, as noted, she seemed to prefer CQC in the first place, and only resorted to range combat after she couldn't coax Hitsugaya into entering CQC. She even remained in CQC with Hitsugaya-tachi when Lisa and Hiyori joined the fight. If she was still trying to actually win the fight, wouldn't it have made sense for her to keep increasing the moisture? To me, she was in every way inferior to Hitsugaya, with the exception of CQC. She couldn't outsmart him, she couldn't control water to the extent that he could, and just overall she couldn't beat him.

Also, do we think she's going to beat Kenpachi in CQC? I didn't see her speedblitzing Hitsugaya, outside of her intial release attack, and she couldn't even head off Hitsugaya to shorten the distance.

I think Hitsugaya is pretty damn good all-around as a Captain, but I don't think he's Kenpachi's equal in CQC. I don't see Harribel performing much better than Nnoitra did, especially considering that: A. Kenpachi won't be rusty, and B: She doesn't even have the 2nd strongest Hierro, much less the strongest.

Wasn't her fight with Hitsu, Lisa, and Hiyori a battle for survival? Yet she didn't change her strategy; she remained in CQC until Aizen felt she was useless to him. I do think that surviving an Aizen slash is pretty damn good for durability, but considering that she took a slash from Aizen, and she didn't have the toughest Hierro, and she wasn't in HM, I doubt that a simple slash from Aizen is as strong as Kenpachi's Kendo slash.


And I think I read something about superior thinking ability? Kenpachi isn't an idiot. He loves fighting, and he strives to draw out good fights, but when he gets bored with a fight, we get to see him showing pretty good intelligence and strategy. In the Tousen fight, he only had touch remaining! No reiatsu sensing (even though he sucks at it), no vision, no hearing, no smell, only touch. And not only did he figure out how to counter it, his battle instincts enabled him to survive long enough to figure out a counter. The fact that he doesn't like to think in combat doesn't mean that he can't think. And again, I fail to see Harribel's superior intellect.

Lastly, HH doesn't suck reiatsu, IIRC. Just because it spawns flowers like Yumichika's doesn't mean that it sucks reiatsu. She may have exerted reiatsu to keep from freezing, but HH itself doesn't suck reiatsu.

[hakuthehedgehog]

I don't know what Harribel's ultimate attack will be, but considering her ability to manipulate water, she should be able to use the built up moisture anyway she wants, so her making a much bigger Cascada isn't unlikely.

As I've stated, Harribel wanted to fight in close range against Hitsugaya because she's better at him in close range, and seeing how Harribel is better than Kenpaichi in long range, why souldn't she fight in long range when she realizes he is dangerous?

Harribel fought the vaizards in close range because they didn't gave her a chance to go long range and also because she was fending them off quite easily.

Harribel may prefer CQC over long range, and she might also be better at CQC, but that doesn't mean she has to fight that way.

You said it yourself: Kenpaichi is much better than Hitsugaya at close range, so why the hell should Harribel continue fighting at CQC once she realizes Kenpaichi's abilities and that he can't touch her if she fight at long range? I don't think she should fall for any Kenpaichi taunt to lure her in close range.

If she was able to stop fighting at long range and switch to long range against Hitsugaya, then she should be able to do the same against Kenpaichi.

And yes, I was wrong about HH, my bad, she's not as resilient, but still IMO enough to wear Kenpaichi down with multiple attacks: don't forget Hitsugaya and Harribel could negate each other's attacks, which is why Hitsugaya didn't take any damage from Cascada.

[benelori]

I'm not sure about this moisture thingy...after a while she needs to wait for moisture to build up...it's not she can raise moisture level on her own...which is a pretty great weakness, because after a while the attacks are not so powerful, so it cannot damage Kenpachi much...this moisture thing was one of the things that put Hitsu in advantage, because unlike Harribel he can influence weather, thus moisture and all that jazz

[hakuthehedgehog]

I'm not sure about this moisture thingy...after a while she needs to wait for moisture to build up...it's not she can raise moisture level on her own...which is a pretty great weakness, because after a while the attacks are not so powerful, so it cannot damage Kenpachi much...this moisture thing was one of the things that put Hitsu in advantage, because unlike Harribel he can influence weather, thus moisture and all that jazz

I think Harribel can raise the moisture level with her attacks, I don't think moisture just goes up naturally, but Hitsugaya, unlike Harribel, can control it instantly.

And the attacks aren't all great in the beggining: as moisture builds up, the attacks progressively get stronger IMO.

[Calisto]

It's not like Harribel is aware that Kenpachi is amazing in CQC, in fact she doesn't know that at all. So I don't see why she'd suddenly start the fight with long range attacks. She'll find out eventually that Kenpachi is amazing at CQC...the hard way.

[El Samurai Guapo]

It's not like Harribel is aware that Kenpachi is amazing in CQC, in fact she doesn't know that at all. So I don't see why she'd suddenly start the fight with long range attacks. She'll find out eventually that Kenpachi is amazing at CQC...the hard way.

Not if Kenpachi is being his usual self fighting patched, one-handed, and allowing himself to get cut. You speak as if the guy starts off with Kendo. It'll be Ken that finds out the hard way that he can't tank that huge arm blade of hers.

[Calisto]

Not if Kenpachi is being his usual self fighting patched, one-handed, and allowing himself to get cut.

What's your point? We saw in his fight with Nnoitra that he can take an insane amount of punishment.

You speak as if the guy starts off with Kendo.

Where did I ever come close to saying or even implying this?

It'll be Ken that finds out the hard way that he can't tank that huge arm blade of hers.

Lol, who said anything about Kenpachi tanking it?

[hakuthehedgehog]

It's not like Harribel is aware that Kenpachi is amazing in CQC, in fact she doesn't know that at all. So I don't see why she'd suddenly start the fight with long range attacks. She'll find out eventually that Kenpachi is amazing at CQC...the hard way.

Kenpaichi wouldn't start off using kendo and taking his eye-patch, they would start fighting with Harribel sealed and gauge each others abilities.

I'd think that Harribel and Kenpaichi are on par both sealed, Kenpaichi without eye patch superior to released Harribel (but not overwhelmingly so) and with Kendo he would 2-3 shot Harribel in CQC.

One Harribel finds out about Kenpaichi superior CQC abilities after Kenpaichi takes his eye-patch, I think she would switch to long range.

[Calisto]

Kenpaichi wouldn't start off using kendo and taking his eye-patch, they would start fighting with Harribel sealed and gauge each others abilities.

Kenpachi doesn't need kendo for somebody on Harribel's level.

I'd think that Harribel and Kenpaichi are on par both sealed, Kenpaichi without eye patch superior to released Harribel (but not overwhelmingly so) and with Kendo he would 2-3 shot Harribel in CQC.

Kenpachi was dominting a base Nnoitra, a bankai Tousen, along with Komamura as well, with his patch on. Doubt that they are equal, even with his patch on.

One Harribel finds out about Kenpaichi superior CQC abilities after Kenpaichi takes his eye-patch, I think she would switch to long range.

The only way that Harribel's gonna find out is when she's beyond injured. Besides, did she bother to go long distance after Aizen slashed her a good one? No she didn't.

[Jackk]

Kenpachi doesn't need kendo for somebody on Harribel's level.

Yet Kenpachi actually needed kendo for somebody on Nnoitra's level. Kenpachi outright stated that Nnoitra was going to kill him if he didn't use kendo.

Harribel is two ranks above Nnoitra. Not to mention that Espadas ranked four and above have significantly more reiatsu than the rest; Ulquiorra stated this. Kenpachi definitely needs Kendo for somebody on Harribel's level. And in even then... Harribel has the range and speed advantage here. I could see Kenpachi possibly tanking some attacks, but he's going to be down after a while if he can't catch Harribel...

[Calisto]

Yet Kenpachi actually needed kendo for somebody on Nnoitra's level. Kenpachi outright stated that Nnoitra was going to kill him if he didn't use kendo.

Harribel is two ranks above Nnoitra. Not to mention that Espadas ranked four and above have significantly more reiatsu than the rest; Ulquiorra stated this. Kenpachi definitely needs Kendo for somebody on Harribel's level. And in even then... Harribel has the range and speed advantage here. I could see Kenpachi possibly tanking some attacks, but he's going to be down after a while if he can't catch Harribel...

First of all, Nnoitra's hierro > Harribel's hierro.

If a patched Kenpachi has no problems amputating the limbs off of an Esapda with more powerful hierro than Harribel, then he's not going to need to use kendo against her.

Second of all, Kenpachi needed kendo because Nnoitra's skill with six scythes was simply too much for Kenpachi. Basically, Nnoitra was simply the best CQC fighter among the Espada, and if that wasn't obvious enough already, Kubo even confirms this himself. Instead of blindly following the Espada ranks, take a look at how their abilities match up instead. Or you know, if you insist on bringing in the ranks, I'll just have to link panels of Kenpachi fodderizing the Cero Espada, you know, without kendo and his eyepatch on.

Not sure how Harribel having the speed advantage is relevant, especially considering that Kenpachi has the reaction timing advantage. Harribel just isn't on Kenpachi's level, that's all there is to it.

[El Samurai Guapo]

First of all, Nnoitra's hierro > Harribel's hierro.

Kenpachi did not break out Kendo cause he couldn't get through Nnoitora's hierro; he did so because he was being overwhelmed and pushed back, he couldn't even land a hit on Nnoitora at that point. The Kendo allowed him to cut right through Nnoitora's weapons/arms and take him out in one shot.

If a patched Kenpachi has no problems amputating the limbs off of an Esapda with more powerful hierro than Harribel, then he's not going to need to use kendo against her.

I honestly hate using Yammi feats because the whole "anger makes me stronger" issue makes it questionable if he actually had higher reiatsu then the other espada by default, or if he had the potential to reach higher levels by building up his anger and getting bigger and stronger.

Second of all, Kenpachi needed kendo because Nnoitra's skill with [B]six scythes was simply too much for Kenpachi. Basically, Nnoitra was simply the best CQC fighter among the Espada,

While it's true the 6 arms were too much for Kenpachi, the statement that Nnoitora was the best CQB fighter is highly debatable. I'd give the edge to a few of them over Nnoitora in CQC honestly, including Harribel. You don't need 6 arms to be deadly, that fact that if you get impaled or bisected by that large blade of hers, you're dead, more than accounts for the fact that it's only one. If more limbs = superior CQB then honestly Luppi should have been the best—which we damn well know he wasn't.

and if that wasn't obvious enough already, Kubo even confirms this himself.

Negative. The only thing confirmed about Nnoitora was his hierro.

Instead of blindly following the Espada ranks, take a look at how their abilities match up instead.

Well I can't speak for Jackk here but personally I don't pay much attention to the ranks (I think Grimmjow was better than Nnoitora), other than the fact we do know that ranks 4 and above where said to be on a whole different level than the rest.

Not sure how Harribel having the speed advantage is relevant, especially considering that Kenpachi has the reaction timing advantage.

Reaction time advantage? Someone want to link that panel where Harribel's facing Yamamoto and she dodges an attack from bankai Toushirou out of freakin' nowhere? That was a Starrk-like reaction right there.

Edit: Never mind, here it is http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c356/5.html
Notice how close the blade already cutting into her hair on the top panel when she first notices it. That's an insane reaction feat considering she though Toushirou was already dead and totally wasn't expecting that.

Kenpachi just isn't on Harribel's level, that's all there is to it.

Fixed.

[UchihaHunter]

In regards to reaction time, I'd say that dodging a blade you can see (even if you didn't expect it) isn't as good as dodging a blade you can't see from a person you can't detect (Kenpachi vs. Tousen).

Also, I thought that even you (Samurai) admitted that Kenpachi was pushing Nnoitra back even with the six arms. It's just hard to keep trading blows with someone that has six weapons to use on you in CQC. Considering how wasted Nnoitra was from one Kendo slash, I think we know that Nnoitra wasn't Kenpachi's equal in strength.

[Calisto]

Kenpachi did not break out Kendo cause he couldn't get through Nnoitora's hierro; he did so because he was being overwhelmed and pushed back, he couldn't even land a hit on Nnoitora at that point. The Kendo allowed him to cut right through Nnoitora's weapons/arms and take him out in one shot.

Where did I ever say that Kenpachi brought out kendo cause he couldn't get through Nnoitra's hierro?

While it's true the 6 arms were too much for Kenpachi, the statement that Nnoitora was the best CQB fighter is highly debatable. I'd give the edge to a few of them over Nnoitora in CQC honestly, including Harribel. You don't need 6 arms to be deadly, that fact that if you get impaled or bisected by that large blade of hers, you're dead, more than accounts for the fact that it's only one. If more limbs = superior CQB then honestly Luppi should have been the best—which we damn well know he wasn't.

How is it debatable? Nnoitra has the best CQC feats among the Espada. What you linked me to was Harribel harming a clone and a illusion. Give me a link to Harribel actually causing a serious CQC injury to someone. Oh wait you can't, because she never did.

Unfortunately, I can for Kenpachi, and heck, even for Nnoitra as well.

Negative. The only thing confirmed about Nnoitora was his hierro.

Are you denying Kubo's statements now? Really? :/

Reaction time advantage? Someone want to link that panel where Harribel's facing Yamamoto and she dodges an attack from bankai Toushirou out of freakin' nowhere? That was a Starrk-like reaction right there.

Edit: Never mind, here it is http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c356/5.html
Notice how close the blade already cutting into her hair on the top panel when she first notices it. That's an insane reaction feat considering she though Toushirou was already dead and totally wasn't expecting that.

Again, what's your point? I never said that Harribel has no reaction timing feats, just that Kenpachi's are obviously much better.

Kenpachi was able to catch a captain class opponent's blade before he lost an arm, without his senses at all.

Fixed.

Trying to fix a clock that isn't broken only makes it a lot worse.

[hajialibaig]

Halibel has the ability to adapt her fighting style during battle as the conditions demand. Halibel is too fast for Kenpachi and is ranked two ranks higher than Nnoitra, who was going to kill Kenpachi (as admitted by Kenpachi himself) if it weren't for the "kendo" joke.

All Halibel needs to do - stay out of Kenpachi's range. Hit him with massive cascadas, end.