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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
He didn't have to attack Starrk's arm, he could have went for the body. How are you going to block something that went through Starrk's arm but didn't even cut it off? That's the weird thing about Irooni. It states that the damage dealt is equal to the risk of yourself, or the amount of risk that the color you just stated would cause harm to yourself. In other words Starrk's call of white would do the greatest damage to himself if Shunsui were to call white. Which was the most predominantly featured color. He gave Shunsui his best shot, and Ultimately didn't win. Now if you think Gin is stronger than Starrk, I guess you might as well vote for him. I frankly don't believe that at all.
Last edited by freshseth83; March 06, 2011 at 06:49 AM.
I picture the majority of these fights in FK and for shikai Shunsui to have a much better shot against Bankai Gin, I think would have to be wearing this:
Last edited by igotthegoods; March 06, 2011 at 08:43 AM. Reason: removed [img] tags from hotlinked image
This fight goes to Shunsui Kyoraku.
Gin's Bankai is very straightforward in its attack. You can see it, you can block it, you can react to it. The speed of the Bankai won't be anything Kyoraku cannot handle, Gin's best chances at getting a legit hit would arise in his cleverness in finding or creating openings. He's very good at this, however, I would say Shunsui is even better
Games like Kageoni and Iro Oni seal the deal, with Kageoni of course only working if the two are fighting on the ground, which given Gin's tendencies, is bound to happen.
Imagine as he tries to use Buto Rejin, Shunsui stabs into the shadow and takes out one of his legs. Thing's don't look good for Fox Face here
Gin wins. Shuunsui is a monster but his shikai won't help him in a 1v1 situation. In FKT he had to wait before Katen Kyōkotsu got in good mood, and then attack Starrk from behind while he was distracted by Love and Rose. In this situation no one is going to help him getting a cheap shot on Gin, furthermore i don't think Shuunsui could avoid a point blank hit fro Shinso.
For me it's pretty simple that Shunsui wins. It's just too strange that people overrate Gin so much. Of course Gin is strong and his Bankai is dangerous, but Shunsui escaped Starrk's Cero Metralieta very easy and his Shikai is rather broken and we can assume that he would have great advantage in colour game and can one shot Gin during colour game, cause Gin has one colour on him.
Also... it was pretty well stated by Yama and by First Databook that Shunsui only is lower than Yama, Aizen and Unohana among Captains of Gotei.
Also about the fact that Shunsui's Shikai is moody... It's pretty clear that there isn't fixed limit to how long it needs to get in the mood. It can easily be posible to use it from get-go. Also Gin's Bankai isn't that fast as people try to see. If mind-fucked Ichigo could still counter it and even hurt Gin I'm pretty sure that Shunsui will be able to do way better.
I'm pretty sure Shikai Shunsui, the same one we're using for this tournament, had trouble with Starrk and his ceros. It can be seen here. That and the databooks are one thing but there are other things to consider such as abilities that characters themselves hold back from everyone else (Aizen and Gin are prime examples of this).
- Where in the DB does it say Shunsui is the 2nd strongest?
- Ichigo was able to anticipate Gin's later attacks because Gin didn't kill him the first time he used it.
I'd say Shunsui wins this, because his shikai games are extremeley deadly, and IMO Gin's bankai is not that hard to dodge.
Shunsui has shown remarkable speed and power, and well as top notch reflexes, so I think he can beat Gin even if it takes a while for his shikai to activate.
I didn't say he was the second strongest. I said that in Databook he was just after Yama, Aizen and Unohana, so he was 4th.
Ok, I might have gone overboard with easyness, but still Starrk only managed to hit Shunsui once when Ukitake was taken down. And I don't think that dodging Gin's Bankai is way more difficult than Starrk's Ceros.
Shunsui's overall abilities are better than Gin's. Actually Gin has shown nothing to be better than Byakuya if we are going to judge purely by Shinigami arts. The only thing why he can be considered strong is his Bankai, but his overall abilities are at the middle level and his Shikai is pretty weak. Also he isn't physically strong to back his lack of Shinigami arts.
Gin is dangerous CQC with sword with seen him twice use his clothes to hide his blade (first time to attack momo nearly cutting histu eye out, Killing Aizen with sleeve). Gin is very tricky up close plus this attack http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-16.html . Gin might lied about his speed but it still FRICKING fast , and for those saying he failed to kill ichigo he was not trying..if he was would he shot him in back and not tell him to run? no could crushed him.
Shunsui is fast but he was barely dodging the ceros from starrk (ukitake stopped the one bout to hit him). Shunsui is really screwed if his shikai plays up and not in mood for abilitys. and the fact no clue on his bankai is harder to evalutate shunsuis strength in this match
so imo Gin wins as his sword works 100% not has be in mood and speed of attacks and deviousness.
Last edited by Hystzen; March 06, 2011 at 01:26 PM.
I agree his Shikai is weak, but I'm pretty sure he'll be going straight to bankai as he did against Ichigo, who he still wasn't fighting particularly seriously.
I also feel he's definitely physically strong enough - he stopped masked Bankai Ichigo's sword with ease and said "way too soft" so I wouldn't go underestimating his physical strength.
Shunsui should win by any real logic. Simply blocking the Bankai and stepping on the shadow produced by the sword while it's outstretched (or stabbing his own sword into the statue and haveing it appear behind Gin) is pretty much endgame right there.
One could argue that Gin could've dispatched Ichigo easily if he wanted, but they'd have to ignore the evident power/speed difference between Shunsui and Ichigo inorder for that to count in Gin's favor. Evident as in, it exists, not evident as in we know how big the stat difference is. For example, Shunsui damaging Aizen's kidou shield when Ichigo couldn't cut through it with a GT. That's Shunsui's shikai alone, mind you, so if he's doing more damage than Bankai Ichigo with shikai alone, there's no reason to believe he can't block Kamishininoyari just as Ichigo did... with just shikai.
And if Gin went stab-happy like he did against Ichigo, swinging dozens of slashes to try to push Shunsui back like he did Ichigo in hopes of turning his sword at him for a suprise attack, a pointblank Busho Goma in his face would disorient long enough for a fatal blow. Or again: stepping on his shadow (or just stabbing his sword into his shadow after parrying an attack) would work too.
Even once they pick up speed, the most Gin could hope for is a few nicks here and there, not enough for his poison to do any real damage. So, the fight depends entirely on whether Shunsui can get to Kage Oni soon enough, because there's nothing Gin can do to counter it... well, aside from staying in the air.
Last edited by ninjabot; March 06, 2011 at 02:13 PM.
The thing is that Cero was Starrk's specialisation, hence he coulod easily spam Cero's without special stances or preparations as it was shown when he was sealed. When he used his Resureccion hebegan spamming Ceros even faster. Of course Starrk's Bala would be faster, but still his Ceros are the fastest among the Espada and second strongest after Yammy's.Quote:
I'm just trying to show that Gin's Bankai in sense of speed won't be that troublesome for Shunsui as the majority thinks.
Of course he didn't need to use better Kidou or Shunpo, that's why he died from Aizen's hand.Quote:
You didn't get my point. I didn't intend to say that he was weakling, but his physical capabilities aren't better than average level of a Captain, so he can't back up his lack in other fields of Shinigami arts.Quote:
My point is that Gin is only about his Bankai and even his Bankai is a bit overrated, so I don't understand, why people think that Gins wins this or even wins this match easily.
P.S. Ok, I can understand that he can win against Shunsui, but I do believe that even with Shikai against Bankai Shunsui wins more often than Gin.