Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (10/13/14 - 10/19/14).
Forum News: The nomination phase of the Community Awards 2014 is live! Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Generally speaking, when a new shinigami uses his/her Shikai, they introduce it with a release command and flare. Seeing as how Isshin never did so, you can see why people would think he was using his sealed sword.
Edit: And with the ones that didn't, they were stated to either not know their zanpaktou's name or have always-released zans. Seeing as how Isshin even talked about captain-class shinigami's swords being sealed (IIRC), again, you can see why people don't think his is the same as Ichigo's (despite sharing techs)
I don't think he'd survive being blown up by Juzu Tsunagi.
^ Chrono Trigger!
Question: Does Isshin have access to FGT? If so, then it is an obvious..But if not, it is really, really hard to tell. I believe Isshin is more powerful than Urahara, but Bleach has a ton of powerful characters that would fall against Urahara and his battle tactics.
It's practically Bleach's Batman against one of Bleach's many Supermen but from what we've seen, I believe Urahara has more than enough up his sleeve to win a tough bout against Isshin. Still there's the "popular vote" factor so there is no telling how this will go.
Last edited by Jackk; March 10, 2011 at 11:39 PM.
Honestly I don't see what's so amazingly impressive about Isshin keeping up with a sealed Aizen in a sword fight. Particularly since Aizen had likely already used some reiatsu when he faced multiple Gotei 13 captains and vaizards, and even used his illusions on them. Aizen even received a 90th level kido blast from Yama as well as a hollowfied GT from Ichigo and was apparently about to go into a transformation with the Hogyouku.
I mean, I actually do happen to think that Isshin is among the strongest captains, but I don't really think that he's the only one who could have done well in a sword fight against that sealed Aizen. IMO others such as Kisuke, Shinji, and Shunsui could have done well in a sword fight with Aizen if he didn't use illusions. Besides, Isshin was even using Kendo and he didn't actually land a single hit with his sword on Aizen as far as I recall. Granted though Isshin did put Aizen on the defensive for the most part and Aizen later admitted that he was at his shinigami limits.
I took Isshin. Not to say it wouldn't be a tough fight. But, Isshin is the only one to get up after Aizen blasted the 3 of them (Yoruichi, Isshin, Urahara). Then on top of it had enough reiatsu left to help Ichigo with his training. Dude obviously has something in his lineage/bloodline that makes him have exceptional power. He was obviously a captain at some point. Probably before TBTP arc and after Shunsui Ukitake Unohana. So I'd put him right there behind those top 3. And right above Urahara Byakuya Shinji Kensei level. At least that's my thinking. Urahara is skilled and his Shikai is pretty versatile, but Isshin seems to me to have better speed, better power, better durability.
Yeah he was helped up by Ichigo, but he did tell Ichigo that he had to discover the final GT to defeat Aizen. On top of it he had access to it himself. This tells me he's obviously discovered that feat since he did it before. Saying that, he must have absolute confidence in his abilities to take the chance of using it. Either that or the opponent must have been one tough cookie. I'd love to see more of both these guys, but for me, Isshin is the winner, despite Urahara's tricks and devices.
I promised that I would give my thoughts on this thread, and so here I am. I currently have not made a final decision on the matter. This is a battle of brains versus brawn.
In terms of pure physical capabilities, I would say that Isshin is superior. We have not seen much of him, but his performance against Aizen and then his ability to maintain Ichigo's training for so long speaks quite highly of his strength and endurance. I can't say that I can recall any feats of Urahara that would suggest he has comparable reiatsu to Isshin, and reiatsu is an important factor in Bleach fights.
Urahara, however, is not a purely physical fighter. Urahara seemingly relies more on kidou, his kidou-type zanpakutou abilities, and his inventions in combat, which might catch Isshin by surprise enough for Urahara to win.
If I were to try to think of a likely scenario for the battle, Isshin would probably start with a GT, which Urahara would either dodge using his portable gigai or attempt to endure with his Benihime's shield (which might be more likely as he might like to assess how powerful Isshin's attack is). Isshin would try to get close for close-quarters combat, as Urahara formulates a plan. This is where I see the critical juncture of the fate of this match.
In Isshin's favor: Isshin's physical prowess overwhelms Urahara through relentless CQC to the point where Urahara does not have the opportunity to do something clever.
In Urahara's favor: Urahara manages to bind him with kidou and manages to take advantage of this to implement some sort of killing move or slap him with the handcuffs he used on Aizen.
Both of those situations seem somewhat unlikely to me for some reason. I have a hard time picturing one of them outdoing the other. It is equally difficult imagining Urahara being overpowered as it is for me to imagine Isshin being trapped by Urahara's kidou.
So, that's where I am on this match. Hopefully, someone shall come along with a really persuasive argument to help me cast my vote.
In the end it's all about endurance IMO. While they may be pretty close in combined abilities, I doubt they're equal in terms of strength and stamina. While Urahara is no pushover, I feel as if Isshin is greater in these areas. While he and Urahara both had good moves against Chrysalis Aizen, the GT he used looked pretty sick. Making craters isn't any indication of how much damage it'd do though. Seeing as how Byakuya and Yammi ate GT's as well as Gin, from Ichigo; it might be strong but it might not be a fight ender. But the GT Isshin fired off was pretty serious. When they went against Aizen, I figured Isshin and Urahara had a plan. And if that plan didn't work fully, Ichigo was their back up. All along I think it was Isshin's intention to teach Ichigo the final GT. I think they realized that they couldn't beat him. Maybe not, but Urahara was smart enough to take advantage of Aizen's carelessness and place the first part of the seal.
But in a fight vs each other, I would say Isshin would come out on top. Arguably he did more to Aizen than Urahara did. Even if the cuffs would have worked, Isshin fought Aizen longer, and the GT like I mentioned looked to be the most devastating attack he took in that form. While the cuffs should do more damage, they ultimately didn't work. Not to say they wouldn't work on anyone else, but how would he get the chance? Isshin is no slouch. I think Urahara would have a better shot against him using kido and Benihime. But catching people with speed like Isshin with kido is going to be hard. That's why I see Isshin winning in the end, maybe 6 out of 10.
I'd go with Isshin in this. Urahara clearly can't win against any Captain without Shikai, cause in every battle he goes with Shikai. He couldn't even scratch Ulquiorra with his Shikai's Getsuga wannabe move.
For El Samurai Guapo: We already had an argument about Isshin and his sword. While fighting against Aizen he was in sealed state. It's obvious. Ichigo had the same sword when he got his Shinigami powers The only difference was its size, cause he couldn't control his Reiatsu. Also in a battle against Menos Grande in the begining Ichigo used Getsuga and against Urahara while they were training. The only difference was that he didn't knew the name of his move. You can ignore the facts, but Isshin's Shikai and Bankai should be like Ichigo's and his sword during the fight against Aizen were nothing like Ichigo's Shikai or Bankai.
For me the fact that Isshin could bring Aizen to his Shinigami limit in pure skill fight while sealed is a damn fit in Isshin's favour. There was actually no one who did better, so it's pretty obvious that he is high tier. Also as we've seen his Kidou skills are also in high league with the best, cause Aizen couldn't find Ichi and Isshin behind Isshin's barrier. Also he has enormous ammount of Reiatsu to keep Dangai during 3 months.
Also Isshin is a damn tank to be not only 1 to stand after Aizen's attack against him, Yoruichi and Urahara, but also he stood up practically immediatly. Also his Getsuga is damn strong. It will clerly one-shot Urahara if Urahara stated that Ichigo's attack during the training in the begining of the manga would have chopped Urahara's hand if he would have tried to tank it.
While Urahara is intelligent, I think it's only really a factor when he has time to plan things. He can make on the fly decisions, but there's no reason to believe that Isshin himself is stupid or reckless. Considering his (Isshin's) performance against Aizen, he's likely very experienced, so I can't imagine he's lacking in fighting tactics. Hell, even Kenpachi, who does one of the stupidest things imaginable in a fight (giving people free shots on him) has shown impressive analytical thoughts that help him in his fights.
Simply put, while I think it's obvious Urahara has an intelligence advantage, in terms of tactics made mid-battle, I don't think he has a substantial advantage over Isshin. Kind of like how Mayuri is many times more dangerous if he has even an hour to plan, I think the same is true for Urahara. Since that's not possible in this tournament, he'll have no choice but to feel out his opponent. He'll have to analyze as he fights, which gives Isshin time to put enough pressure on him to make sure he doesn't get the chance to execute whatever plan he thinks of.
I'm giving it to Isshin with a slight advantage.
Of course he told that it was his Zan's move, but he never said that he should be in Shikai to use it. Also how come simple slash can practically cut such enormous thing as Menos from such distanse? It's rather clear that it was Getsuga, even though it wasn't called. He didn't know the name of his move, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't it.
Also your logic is invalid according to Isshin, cause it's rather clear that his sword isn't in Shikai, cause their Shikais should be alike.
This should be a close one, as should Shinji vs. Kenpachi.
I believe what weve seen so far that Isshin has greater power than Urahara. Urahara has better kido abilities from what weve seen. But Isshin is no slouch the way he 'flicked' kido at Aizen that pushed him through a building or two. In terms of physical strength I would say it's Isshin. Urahara seems more of a 'finesse' type fighter, like Byakuya. Isshin seems a bit more straight forward, more head on, sorta like Kenpachi, just not as brash and brutish. I think the finesse thing will work for a while, but there's no reason to believe Urahara is faster. And no reason to think Isshin is faster. But he did slice king fisher in half with one swing. So to me that shows he has pretty good amounts of power behind him. Urahara has shown some inconsistency in that department. He can cancel other abilities if he equals it with benhime, but then it seemed like it worked better against Chrysalis Aizen than it did vs. someone like Yammi and Ulquiorra. Weird, maybe he altered the strength? Or maybe it was because it was a different technique.
I don't think he'll be able to catch Isshin with those techniques he caught Aizen with. At least not as easily. For one, Aizen was facing 3 opponents. Two, he wasn't really fighting as his normal self, the type that doesn't get hit. And finally, Isshin is just as fast as Urahara, so he'll definitely be on guard and have Urahara the same. If he pushes Urahara I think he'll win. If he doesn't, Urahara has time to use other techniques of his. I think Isshin the way he fights, has the slight edge here. He doesn't seem to let up. I think he's the type to press the issue, and here I feel that's key.