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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Everyone knows that sealed zanpakutous have zero abilities, that is why they are well... you know, sealed. Releasing shikai and bankai gives them special abilities. Also, no, Engetsu being similar to Zangetsu does not equate to Engetsu really needing to look exactly like zangetsu in shikai. Also there are zanpakutous that don't change form in shikai; some zanpakutous still look like sealed swords.
back to topic:
I think Urahara will pull a victory here, his fake gigai trick and 4 consecutive kidos is basically an endgame for any opponent short of Yama, Aizen (cautious) and Barragan. Maybe Shinji might have a chance as well due to Sakanade's effects. Others will just get massacred.
Last edited by AlB; March 11, 2011 at 05:07 AM.
Tough call. I'm still waiting for something that makes sense in the arguments. Isshin was able to out duel a slightly beat up Aizen with no Illusions. This proves that in sealed state Isshin is on par or slightly better than in sealed state Aizen. Impressive. Urahara's Energy cuffs stated by Aizen would have killed him before the evolution. Even more impressive. Isshin was able to inflict the only damage that cocoon Aizen was impressed(?) by. Very impressive. It's just feat after feat they out shined each other (basing it on Aizen). Against each other it's a very tough call. On the basis that they don't know each other however I would think Isshin has the advantage but I'm still going to wait to vote.
It seems to me that Isshin has the edge but I won't vote yet, I'm pretty sure we'll hear some good arguments in favor of Urahara.
Isshin pushed Aizen to his shinigami limits, which is a very impressive feat. Yamamoto's Hadō 96 and Ichigo's GT attack most likely took their toll on Aizen and made him reach his limit faster but I don't think Aizen's reiatsu was far below its usual levels when Isshin fought him, he was still strong enough to block Ichigo's sword with his bare hand.
After fighting shinigami Aizen long enough to exhaust him, Isshin fought cocoon Aizen alongside Urahara and Yoruichi, they all got hit, Isshin was the first to get up and he has supported Ichigo in Dangai for three months. This is terrific endurance. Out of Yoruichi's Shunkō, Urahara's Juzutsunagi and Isshin's GT, Aizen acknowledged Isshin's GT to be far superior.
Of course, Urahara is no pushover. He may not have Isshin's physical strength and endurance but we know that he is very intelligent and he is very skillful at kidō. He has techniques like the reiatsu seal that can finish off Isshin if used successfully. It's kind of hard to argue for Urahara though, he didn't fight much by himself. He had brief fights with sealed Yammy who is the weakest espada. Urahara, unlike Isshin, fought Aizen only after Aizen stopped caring about getting hit and became reckless which provided Urahara with the opportunity to put his gigai trick into good effect and use his kidō on him. We have no idea what would happen if it was shinigami Aizen who fought Urahara but it's fair to say that Aizen wouldn't be that open to attacks.
Aizen suggested that Urahara's power was comparable to his at one point but there are different interpretations of this statement:
1) Urahara was on par with Aizen right before the transformation but since Urahara is under the effects of KS, it's hard to argue that this is the case. I don't think Urahara could put up a good fight against KS by himself.
2) Urahara was on par with Aizen 100 years ago, the last time they met when Aizen was still a VC. Even though Aizen was obviously still captain-class at that time, we don't have any reason to think he was as powerful as he is now, 100 years is a long time to improve yourself. For example, even though Hitsugaya is already strong, he may surpass Shunsui in 100 years time.
3) Urahara's power was comparable to Aizen in the sense that they were both shinigami but Aizen evolved to be something superior.
As a side note, Ulquiorra said that he could defeat Urahara and Yoruichi if they tried to protect the injured. Since Ulquiorra takes his information from Aizen, it's unlikely that Aizen said "Urahara is as powerful as me but you can still defeat him." I checked the raw, the translation in this page is wrong, Ulquiorra doesn't say "we'll lose" in the bottom speech bubble, he just says "(Yammy), you can't beat them with your current level", suggesting that there's actually a level that Yammy can beat them. A translator friend confirmed my translation.
In this case, I lean to Isshin, his feats seemed more impressive but as I said, I won't vote yet to hear what other people say about this match-up.
- @Gran Maestro: According to Juni's translation Ulquiorra never said he could beat Urahara and Yoruichi.
- Urahara can use the strategy he taught Ichigo, to look for the opening between consecutive strikes: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v11/c096/15.html
Here's one of my older post:
Isshin likes to make big powerful strikes, so according to Urahara they would be more limited. Look here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/3.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/4.html
Isshin was open on the 2nd strike.
- Urahara's seal may not be as hard to activate as everyone thinks. It seems all Urahara has to do is touch his opponent with his hand twice.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; March 11, 2011 at 10:26 AM.
and ichigo who always goes bankai? yamamoto who goes shikai against all those he fought so far?byakuya who releases his sword agaisnt that dude in ss arc (cant spell his name) ......... are they all weak?urahara only fought 2-3 fights, you dont make a rule out of such a small number
on the outcome : i see that everyone is waiting for some decent arguments, but i have the impression tha many are just looking for who is stronger ... if yes, then just click isshin and vote , the only 3 who are stronger are yama , hogyokuzen and ichigo , but this is a topic where you have to choose between brains and brawn ,and by brain we means ultrageniusness and not above average iq...
Last edited by tousendrinksbleach; March 11, 2011 at 09:47 AM.
Last edited by Gran Maestro; March 11, 2011 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
The translation here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...4-page-16.html) differs slightly from the one on Juni's website, but Ulquiorra never says in this translation either that he could beat Yoruichi and Urahara.
This translation still says "We'll lose", which is plain wrong. In the page you posted, Ulquiorra says "If you try to protect the injured and fight me, you most likely lose."
i'm using it as a anti-argument of what you are saying , i'm either missing entirely your point or you are missing mine
and please stop with the kubo messages already, anyone see that kubo uses trolling as a mean to create "suspense" , that's probably what he thinks he is doing with all his ... kubo always tries to make us believe great challenges are comming ( starkk vanishes, n4 is showns to be super powerful , 10vls can eradicate SS ....)only o have the last espada one shotted by none that aizen himself the king of bleach trolls
Last edited by tousendrinksbleach; March 11, 2011 at 11:00 AM.
If there was some truth to what Ulquiorra said it still wouldn't prove much. Ulq has R2 and they would have to protect their friends, which would mean free hits for Ulq.