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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
there was a thread similar to this one, so I merged it into this thread.
if you want to see the thread content that's been merged into this one, look at the first N number of posts (page 1) of this thread.
Maybe I'll post my list later, I don't have time currently to give reasons for my ranking and I would like to write at least a few sentences about each warrior I would grade. I have a problem with Miata though, she had problems with Galatea who was fighting her and was watching out for Agatha's attacks but at the same time she was (and is) only a child with humongous potential. "She is an extraordinary talent that could aim for #1 but we have been unable to cope with her mental instability" (chapter 68). She was able to kill ABs with her bare hands and even Agatha was scared of her once she realized how strong she is. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if Miata wasn't completely serious with killing Galatea and just like she didn't want to harm any humans (e.g. when Galatea threw Galk at her) she also didn't want to permanently harm a blind Claymore. Otherwise it would mean that Galatea could probably take Miria on and would have a high chance of winning against her if she could sense her.
I've written something on this matter here. Basically it's entirely possible that youki pool is constant and it can't increase. With half-awakening however they get more access to their youki pool as if they were Awakened Beings, hence Miria's comment about the change of youki quality in Slasher's arc. Deneve said that in chapter 95: "My first youriki release in seven years seems to be increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times". Which means that she has access to 50-80% of her power even though her face isn't distorted. Which means that she has more access to her hidden powers which normally she would only have as an awakened. Which doesn't mean she would become stronger AB. It means she wouldn't need to awaken at all since with time she might have access to all her powers that normally would be available only to ABs. I've discussed about it here for example.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 20, 2011 at 04:02 AM. Reason: nvm, I'll make a post response to his post
I actually find Galatea troubling, as she's so awesome Pre-Pieta (vs Dauf) and she does so well in the vs Agatha+Miata battle too, but than she can't even kill 2 weak dumb mindless beast male Awakened city Razing shock troops, and is saved by Yuma, lol. Is Galatea powerful or not... and why the lousy latest performance by her? Is she pretending to be weak...?
and let's not forget that Miata included Galatea among Clare and Miria in Power Level, as all three of them (Galatea, Clare, and Miria) as being "Very Strong". Whereas Helen, Deneve, Cynthia, Tabatha, and Yuma were just "Strong" (at this point in time anyways, hehe).
(I think) Miata actually NEVER kills any ABs with her bare hands, they're all the NYs that she kills with her hands, she uses her sword on the Awakeneds.
(I had thought she tore apart Awakeneds as well with her hands, but then I went back and I don't think any of them were Awakeneds, but rather just NYs for the ones she killed with her bare hands. Though conidering her performance and display of strength against Agatha, Miata probably can very well kill Awakeneds with her bare hands, hehe)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 20, 2011 at 04:05 AM.
Added to not reply a second post:
Take Miria for example. She used Her Phantom Skill against Male awakened one, (Clare told 15 to 20 times maximum), almost 30 and get exhausted, cached and pwnd. So Her "Yoki pool" even in HA state can allow Her to use this skill in limited amount of times. After 7 years of training with Yoki suppression (only physical abilities) this skill is far more better and She can use it for many times often with even less Yoki consumption. So when We assume that Yoki level is constant, She after learning a higher level of skill could not use it so often. Like in RPG games, You increase level of Mana or develop a spell to level when using it take less Mana. In that case Miria expand Her "pool of Yoki" so it can not be constant.
Yoki comes from Yoma part in Human body. Human consciousness control Yoma abilities then control Yoki also, but developing and evolving of Human body can increase this levels. Why not, since it is connected? I think that pure Yomas can not evolve any higher.
Riful was trying to made an army of Awakened one, She tortured Claymore to force them to awoke. She was disappointed when lower ranked one awoke, she was weak. Why? I think she was not enough trained and not enough evolved to gain higher levels of Yoki. But this Claymore when kept alive, maybe in future be even No. 1. It takes time to evolve. And human body can evolve raising levels of Yoma part and then Yoki also.
Maybe I wrote this a little messy, but the point is: since You can evolve, You can achieve higher levels of You. When You can not, You stay with this what You already achieve. Claymore can evolve, HA can evolve, AB can not evolve. So Human part can evolve. After this comes Yoki power level increase.
Have a good day
Last edited by colonywars; March 20, 2011 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Reflections about Miria Phantom Skill
You're right HK, we've only seen her tearing youma apart (which still is a huge accomplishment, not many Claymores would have raw power to do it, probably only number ones +Priscilla, Rafaela and Clare). I've jumped to conclusions after reading this part:
"The impression of a small child I hugged when I first met Miata is long gone. Instead there is something that can easily rip apart monsters I am no match for, a presence beyond those monsters."
All depends on how we interpret "ripping apart" (could it be in a figurative way and she used a sword for that? Somehow I doubt it) and "monsters that Clarice is no match for". Since she passed final exam and survived it she should be of Clare's level (when we've first met her), at least. And Clare could get rid of youma, even powerful ones. Even before her half-awakening she had high chances of winning against "voracious eater" in Rabona and if not for her caring about Galk and Cid she might have succeeded the first time she encountered him. Since Clarice has been cleared for duty they must have known she would be able to get rid of youma at least. Heck, even Raki and now probably Galk and Cid could kill youma and they don't have super/demonic/inhuman powers. We also have to take into account that Clarice was fast enough to amaze Agatha even (she was the closest to killing her) and that Miata was strong enough to overpower and move humongous Agatha. So I think it's entirely possible for her to rip a lesser AB apart, although we have no proof of that (I thought it's been stated explicitly by Clarice but she used ambiguous term "monsters").
Regarding Galatea, I wouldn't say she was saved by Yuma. I'm sure she would be able to kill those ABs even without her help but it might require youki release. But this whole fight was sloppy on Yagi's part IMO. It raises questions about Galatea and makes us doubt her power. It's also strange that Galatea didn't know the help was coming. Deneve and Helen could be sensed from miles away by someone of her skill and even though she might not know their signatures she would know they were Claymores. And she definitely knew Dee's signature and even though a while earlier she could sense her miles away now she couldn't? She could also sense Miata and Clarice on suppressant pills but she seemed genuinely surprised once help came.
Just a quick question,
how would you rank the ghosts in order of power? I'm mostly interested in the top 3.
For number one I'd pick either Clare or Miria and then for number three I'd say Helen or Deneve.
I would rank it like this:
1.Miria(even though clare has a quick sword, Miria is extremely good strategist plus she is extremely fast and has new kinds of mirrages and smart, something like shakimaru in naruto.Also clare is way too careless when she fights.)
2. Clare( well obviously quicksword wins, and she is simply on another level then the rest of the 7 survivers)
3.Galatea( even with her eyes gone, this warriors simply amazes at how she fights, even though she is kinda underrated)
4.Miata( This girl has a high potential Imo, however she is so inexperienced yet.)
5.Deneve(not bad defensive type but I dont see anything special tbh)
6.Yuma/Helen( I think they are kind of the weakest and havent grabbed my attention in excelling at anything)
Want to add that this ranking is only of the north survivors and the ones who kinda joined Miria to some extent. Will soon post the updated ranking of the still alive claymore characters
Last edited by lawlett-kun; May 01, 2011 at 09:15 PM.
1) Half-Awakened Clare
Last edited by White Silver King; May 05, 2011 at 07:08 PM.
Here's the thing about Miria, I get the feeling that she's very smart and a great strategist. It is also my understanding that Miria's strategies are best for group combat where she acts as the commander. It was mentioned few times that using Miria's strategies rivals that of the #1 power when used in a group. A team lead by Miria would fair the best against the same team that was lead by somone else. In a one vs one situation, I see her as a one trick pony while group strategies doesn't really come in to play.
On the other hand Clare is rather unpredictable and has more tools at her disposal, like the windcutter, yoki sensing and quicksword. Clare is also a very quick learner and adaptive fighter.
I think in a one and one fight Clare would win against Miria 6 out of 10 times. It's not a very wide margin but I think it's enough. I see Clare being hard pressed defending against Miria's phantom attacks till she can adapt and cope with Miria's techniques. After that I think Clare would be able to adjust to the attacks and defend better till she timed a decisive blow against Miria where she wasn't the phantom.
Last edited by Khorr; May 03, 2011 at 10:46 AM.
If your one trick kicks ass, you don't really need another. Did you see what she did to the org? Miria could own Clare - yeah Clare could sense her, but she's nowhere near fast enough to stop her. In order for her Quick Sword to be a real hindrance to Miria, she'd need the speed, force and power of Illena's. Yeah Clare adapts, but she doesn't suddenly move 5x faster than before (that's Fairy Tail territory). Half-awakened Clare, though, could demolish Miria in a second.Quote:
Last edited by White Silver King; May 03, 2011 at 02:02 PM.
I do have to give credit to where credit is due. Miria did decimated one of the orginazations camps. We also don't know how well would other clare/ghost fair against in the same situation however. Clare can't suddenly move 5X faster then before as you stated, but the only known improvement Miria had gained that I know of was that she isn't restricted by the number of times she can do her phantom techniques. From what I seen, Clare seems to be pretty fast now. She did get away from Riful if running away counts.
Like I said though, the margin is a close one for me in favor of Clare for me. As for the speed and power of the quicksword, I think the speed part is more important since Miria isn't like a yoma that have a toughen skin. A strike clocking at 30mph is just likely to cut somone's head off as a strike going 200mph if it lands. Of course more power does help still. We also seen Clare go up against some very tough opponents like Ophelia and Dauf when she had just a faction of her current skills and power. Of course she barely survived thanks to a great deal of luck, but it shows she's no stranger to fighting tough opponents.
This brings up another related qustion, who would win in a fight Miria or Ilena?
Last edited by Khorr; May 03, 2011 at 02:57 PM.
So youki-less* WC > youki-less* phantom, and WC << QS => if they went all out Miria would either be obliterated in a matter of seconds (in case she decided to fight Clare) or she would have escaped from Clare. If Miria used her old phantom then she would have problems with controlling her movements, instant stopping, her stamina etc. whereas Clare would have no such disadvantages and the moment Miria would face her would be Miria's last. Clare's QS works well everywhere (in fact she could do better if they fought in an enclosed space like some kind of a cave or a corridor, e.g. where Clare and Galatea fought Duff, in other words the location where Miria and Clare were fighting was advantageous to Miria since it was an open space where she could run freely). If Clare could hold her ground (and even have an advantage) without releasing youki then the gap between her and Miria would become more obvious the moment they both used it. Let's face it, Miria was never #1 material, on the other hand Clare was always special and had hidden, immense power (which Miria instinctively sensed) which she showed in Pieta.
Answer this honestly - do you believe that Miria could escape Clare's QS if Clare would be able to turn around in time? Once Miria would face QS there would be nothing she could do so the only way for her to win with Clare would be to get behind her and chop her head off. The thing is she couldn't do it when they both were cloaked (Clare was always fast enough to turn around before Miria was close enough to do that) and with youki release Clare is much faster and much stronger than Miria (not to mention she has PYS although in my opinion it wouldn't help her much in this case). The gap between Miria and Clare in their basic stats was completely gone after 7 years (7 years ago Miria could throw Clare's sword out of her hand without using her phantom, she was more skilled and had more stamina, now all she could manage was Clare that didn't even attack her), in addition Clare gained some useful techniques and access to her hidden power. I just can't see a way for Miria to win the fight with her.
BTW, you're using an inexplicit term since Clare has been half-awakened for a long time, what you're referring to is Queen of Blades mode (QoB for short). I think it's the most fitting term for the "superb Clare".
*By youki-less I mean technique were youki isn't being emanated
Absolutely yes. She has used her Phantom Mirages to escape from nearly every single fatal blow in the series (one from even Rigardo and/or Riful) IIRC, we have no reason to believe the same wouldn't be true for Clare's QS.Quote:
And Miria didn't go South with Clare because she was so awed by her power, she went South because she wanted revenge. Clare's leaving just provided her an occasion. And her battle with Clare was pretty even. I take back what I said earlier after rereading the chapter. I'd place them evenly, Clare wasn't anywhere near owning Miria as you make it seem, Miria just recognized she no longer had the right to lead Clare because they were equals now.
Last edited by White Silver King; May 03, 2011 at 07:26 PM.
Regarding Riful, Miria managed to escape only because she was cloaked and Riful didn't expect it (she was completely shocked when she saw the ghosts) and wanted to talk first.
As for power, since Irene gave it to Clare, she has half-awakened 3-4 more times. 1-2 times in Riful's castle, 1 time during her fighting with the turtle AB and shortly after 1 time when she was fighting Riguald (and this one it was almost complete awakening). And we know that with each such awakening they have more access to their hidden power as Claymores and in Clare's case to Teresa's power. So by this time it's certain her QS wasn't just half the power and speed of Irene's but it might have been faster. What's more if the mental battle with Rafaela is any indication, she became faster and more powerful.
And anyway, you're ignoring my last paragraph here, my arguments that is. Once Miria would face QS there would be nothing she could do. The only way for her to win with Clare would be to get behind her and chop her head off - which we know she isn't capable off. So in case Miria would decide to run she would survive but if they fought Miria would go down. There is something called inertia you know (and Yagi has shown us in Pieta and several other occasions that in Claymore world Newton's laws apply) and once Miria would be charging at Clare she wouldn't be able to suddenly teleport away from the range of Clare's QS. Sure she would be able to change direction a bit but QS is instantaneous (almost, it's more instantaneous than phantom in which inertia always plays a role and reduces it's "range", while when Clare starts swinging it's dangerous at all times the sword is moving). Phantom is not an offensive technique in itself, it has to be combined with sword swinging and while Miria can be fast enough to get into the range of her opponent her swings aren't fast enough to deal with opponents of Clare's class. Miria has nothing to counter Clare's QS, her puny swings combined with the speed of phantom could only counter WC at best. And we can't know for sure she could do even that since the moment Clare used her WC Mira stood down.
In addition let me remind you that the WC Clare was using was inferior to Flora's version since she wasn't using youki then. Flora's most powerful version of WC was enhanced with youki release (you can see biki sounds at the later part of Flora's fight with Clare) and it still was nowhere near Irene's QS (since Clare's QS was of about half power and speed of Irene's and it was equal to Flora's WC at maximum power without going near the limit). And since Clare improved a lot after 7 years even her WC combined with youki release would be much more powerful. Miria doesn't have such an advantage. Her old phantom, while faster wasn't that fast while at the same time harder to control than her new one. And it was as fast as she could get. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for her to exhaust herself and struggle when she was fighting the twins. She could have released youki, used her new phantom and insta-KO them. She knew these were the last warriors left (didn't know about Raftela obviously).
So no, yoki powered Mirage can't be faster now. There is no 10% in this case, it's 100% like with a QS (well not exactly, but it's as much as she can use). Otherwise Miria would use 50% of her youki and kill Riguald instantly instead of slowly tiring herself out and going slower. Why do you think Miria didn't release her youki when she was fighting Riguard? Because she wanted to die? No. Because in fact SHE WAS releasing it in short bursts which allowed her to do her phantom.
Last edited by Goral; May 04, 2011 at 12:58 AM.