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Keep in mind, I hold Tousen would have won if he went to cut the dude's goddamn head at the start with his bankai rather than going for nonlethal cuts. And his blade in bankai is basically sealed. All you need, basically, is the power to cut. Which he basically has.Quote:
Granted he could start getting use to it, but that really only applies if he keeps it to a single reversal, which doesn't appear to be the case. Once he starts switching it around anythings not viable anymore, even the direction to which you take damage was apparently switched.
Size is important because it means backhanding it isn't going to be viable anymore. Granted backhanding energy in general is stupid, but the point is even if he does manage to do so, it's not going to work as well.Quote:
Connecting is important regardless of power because it'll start to eat away at him. There's a reason Starrk is scary even if a single cero in general is crap, getting hit by multiples of them is going to wreck you up. It's just most don't have the means to easily do so besides him. With proper setup, Shinji does.
Last edited by Random101; March 15, 2011 at 10:39 PM.
If headshots were that easy and viable, then I would think that we would have much more decapitations than we have...obviously you don't want to be drawing beheadings every chapter, but I would think that if it was that easy to lop off Kenpachi's head, Nnoitra would have done so, considering he sliced his upper trapezius
As far as the getting used to it, again, I don't even see Shinji actually doing much damage. Even with Tousen stabbing Kenpachi near vital areas, he was pretty much fine and ready to face off against Komamura's Bankai. And the Nnoitra fight had him fighting with a freaking hole in him and multiple slash wounds. I don't see Shinji killing him easily. On the other hand, I think a couple of patchless slashes is pretty much all Kenpachi would need to kill most shinigami not named Yamamoto (Komamura would probably survive, I can't think of any others off hand right now though)
Not to mention it's fairly easy to tell what's been reversed, and we've never seen Shinji switching things on and off rapidly mid-battle. He's arguably done it once, and I say arguably because when he first introduced it to Aizen, he didn't show up upside-down when he attacked Aizen from behind...
Anyway, bed time for now, I look forward to seeing the arguments tomorrow.
They're not by sheer virtue of decent reflexes, but if say someone completely screws over your senses to the degree that you couldn't even do anything about the first strike, if the blow had been aimed at your head, you would have been dead.Quote:
Tousen lost because he let Kenpachi get used to it. I hold Shinji as more likely to do better here because he has ways to make it nearly impossible to even begin to get used to it.
Aizen had no idea till he saw Shinji smirking at him, ignoring LOL illusion. And there were things that were reversed that weren't immediately obvious that he somehow managed to divine earlier. Remember it's not just your sight involved here. Were you perceive damage, direction an attack is coming from, so many things are apparently played into his ability that were it not Aizen that would have totally screwed him over. Throw in that he can choose simply which ones apparently and that means Kenpachi literally couldn't tell if it's on or off at any given time. It's a screwy ability for CQC to say the least, you'd need damn fine AOE attacks to be able to deal with it.Quote:
I will go with Kenpachi.
Shinji seems like a close combat fighter, and that is where ken dominates. Shinji has not shown anything impressive in the least. He spent 100 years training to get revenge against aizen, only to show up and get owned, after screaming for ichigo like a pansy. He got cocky against aizen and took off his mask, showing ignorance. he couldn't overwhelm gin in unreleased state, and he didn't engage illusion aizen as the other captains did.
Kenpachi has one of the best reflexes in the manga. In a situation where all his senses have been robbed of him, he was still able to dodge attacks just as it grazed his skin. If he can do that with any of his senses, then it would be relatively easy to dodge attacks that he can see and anticipate even with the power of shinji's shikai.
Shinji also is not durable. Out of the fighters against aizen, he was the one in the best shape since he only got a small cut, yet he fell just as easily. A slash from kenpachi will be enough to take him out. And ceros won't do much against kenpachi. First option is to throw it away, the second would be to dodge which isn't hard
Shinji takes this without any difficulties. Quite frankly Shinji is at least a whole tier above Kenpachi, it's not even a close call. As a pure Shinigami he wins; he's got the advantage in most categories, and a zanpakutou ability that's almost ideal for someone like Kenpachi.
Comparing Kenpachi to Shinji, the only clear advantage I see Kenpachi having is power. Shinji's definitely quicker, definitely smarter, and is definitely better at kidou (Kenpachi has a 0 in kidou). You may be wondering where we've seen Shinji use any kidou, but I'll let Jackk have the honor of showing you all. As for swordsmanship it's hard to say, both seem to be oriented towards CQB. Ignoring the inversions, Shinji's shikai is basically still a Katana so I'd more than wager he's pretty adept at swordplay. Shinji does seem to be have some power behind his swings, with one arm he easily overpowers shikai Ichigo and sends him flying fast enough to crash into the ground. Durability, is also a tough one to call as the only person we've ever seen taking Shinji down is Aizen. Shinji did tank a pretty nasty looking slash across the back from Aizen though. Only way I can see Kenpachi matching that kind of power is with a direct kendo hit.
Now let's get into hollowfication (yeah, I wasn't including it above). With the mask on all of Shinji's advantages become far greater, and Kenpachi's power advantage suddenly shrinks to little or nothing. Shinji also now has access to a very powerful ranged attack (cero) which I don't think Kenpachi is quick enough to dodge, and would certainly hurt him. In other words I think Shinji (sealed + mask) would be a decent challenge for Kenpachi, in fact I'd give Shinji the edge. If you throw in sakanade it's a rape. Kenpachi isn't going to be able to stop an opponent who's quicker than him to begin with from cutting him into ribbons when his senses are all screwed up.
Now, as expected, some of you have already brought up Kenpachi vs. Kaname as the primary counter-argument. I've been hearing that since Kenpachi managed to survive a similar situation against a sense-affecting hax ability, this would just be a repeat of that event.
While Kaname's bankai is in it's own right very hax, perhaps even more than Shinji's shikai is (once he manages to trap you in it), there's still a difference!
For starters, while absolutely deaf and blind, I think it's natural for one's sense of touch to become heightened. Mind you Kenpachi was still getting cut and couldn't land a really damaging blow on Kaname without letting himself get stabbed first. The difference with sakanade is that Kenpachi will definitely be using his eyes. Everyone's made a big deal out of his so-called amazing reflexes, well guess what, his reflexes are going to be working against him here. Like Shinji said, the more experienced you are the more you rely on your reflexes.
Other differences here are that Shinji himself is faster and stronger than Kaname, and even if by some miracle Kenpachi did manage to catch Shinji and (by letting himself get stabbed let's say), Shinji wouldn't be going down like a bitch after getting slashed either. In other words he's more durable too. Even more so with the mask, he can probably tank as much if not more than Kenpachi. Not only that, but I seriously doubt Kenpachi would even be able to hold Shinji while he's hollowfied. Think of how much stronger a weakling while Mashiro got while hollowfied. A powerful captain level like Shinji would just punch Kenpachi in the face and send him flying.
Now in regards to Shinji's cero, I've noticed its potency is being severely downplayed here. Yes, Shinji's cero would shit on Nnoitora's. Nnoitora's cero was crap; both Kenpachi and Neliel were easily able to stop it with their hands. Grimmjow's base cero was more impressive, being easily superior to Ichigo's bankai GT. . In fact, Grimmjow's cero was powerful enough to completely negate Ulquiorra's.Now I seriously doubt Kenpachi would just slap away Ichigo's GT, much less an attack that's quite a bit more powerful.
Shinji's cero absolutely destroyed Grimmjow's and sent him flying. Yes it wasn't in HM, but I'm not a believer that it makes this huge-ass night and day difference. Though bear in mind, if you do believe that then Shinji's cero would also be much more powerful in HM. I've never seen Grimmjow as shocked as he was here . After being hit with one single attack that was mostly negated he was visibly damaged badly. That cero made him realize how powerful Shinji was and he was about to release before Ulquiorra stopped him. Also, mentioning that Grimmjow was one armed here is totally irrelevant, and has no effect on the power of Grimmjow's own ceros. Kenpachi lacks any sort of hierro either (Grimmjow being one of the better espada in that category) so quite frankly one of those ceros is going to roast his ass. Of course Kenpachi won't go down, even after he's all burnt up and smoldering, but rest assured a direct hit will do plenty of damage. From there he just shunpo's in front of
AizenKenpachi and does this: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...9-page-19.html. Kenpachi attempts to block in front of him but as it turns out, Shinji was actually behind him.
Too late! **ǝɯoɔןǝʍ oʇ ǝɥʇ pǝʇɹǝʌuı pןɹoʍ**
Ken's already been bisected vertically.
˙ǝןqɐʇɐǝqun sı ǝpɐuɐʞɐs 'ʇı ǝɔɐɟ
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; March 16, 2011 at 12:12 AM.
I'm going to wait to vote but I'd like to comment that while most of are you are comparing Tousen's Bankai to Shinji's Shikai they work differently.
Tousen's Bankai blocks all your senses except touch. The biggest element it invokes though is fear from not being able to use your senses which Kenpachi obviously had none of at all. His ability to react to the sword hits was him basically him entering a pure Zen like state and focusing on reacting only, while pretty hardcore it's easy for a calm mind and a somewhat quickly instinctive person to pull off. Also Tousen wanted to make him suffer fear and played around with him (BAD IDEAR).
Shinji's Shikai doesn't need the element of fear. He can control who it effects and to what degree it effects them. He literally said the better someone is at fighting the more effective his ability is. Kenpachi may get used to a certain orientation Shinji has but unfortunately Shinji can change it over and over again to keep confusing him. Now I won't say it's impossible that Kenpachi just closes his eyes and waits until the same sense of touch that he used to beat Tousen could work on Shinji....
Shinji is a very fast fighter and CQC I don't think Kenpachi would dominate him and I'm also with people who say that his Cero wouldn't do much damage to Kenpachi (unless he got within a few feet). This fight is going to be pretty hard to make sense of.
Sakanade is hax, but Shinji lacks attack power...i just don't see his slashes badlly hurting someone who withstood this http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...7/page019.html even with mask...
I feel like the moment Kenpachi realizes something's up, he'd just turn off his eyes, meaning Sakanade IS effectively Tousen's Bankai. The price would be one free hit. Maybe two. And, of everyone in the Bleachverse, Kenpachi is the undisputed king of tanking critical damage. I'm not going to vote QUITE yet, but I think Kenpachi is the single worst matchup for Shinji short of Aizen.
Sakanade's power works well against fighters like Kenpachi since it can reverse someone's reflexes, and unlike Tousen, Shinji has been shown to go right for the decapitation seeing how he did so with Aizen(before Tousen's blade stopped him). Shinji has also displayed pretty good reflexes as well, so it won't be easy for Kenpachi to land a sword on him. With these simple reasons, I'd say the odds are against Kenpachi here.
He beat Tousen blindfolded. And deaf. I believe that Zaraki has displayed that he's a threat that requires a Bankai to deal with and, at least within the parameters of the tournament, I think his base physical abilities MIGHT be enough. Though, Hollowfied Shinji's physical abilities are likely greater than unhollowfied Tousen, so perhaps Sakanade is enough of an advantage. I'm personally unsure of Shinji's finishing power.
Admittedly though I think the fact that Kaname went down after a single direct hit and had his bankai fall apart...let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if his intention was to play the weak victim so as to get Sajin to intervene and have the two of them take each other out, enabling him to go and carry out Aizen's plans. In fact that would have been even smarter than taking Kenpachi out inside his bankai dome, cause then he'd have Sajin following him around when he's supposed to be retrieving Renji/Rukia.
Kenpachi has zero kido abilities as noted by the first databook and as evident by Kenpachi's complete lack of kido usage in the manga. On the other hand, Shinji has actually shown the ability to use kido blasts--and to good use too!
Where? Right here:
Now, yeah, that particular kido blast only burned Grimmjow's arm;however, did you see the ridiculous precision/accuracy that Shinji had when he shot that kido blast? I mean, Grimmjow was about to shoot Rukia with a cero at point blank range. Yet Shinji shot a kido blast from a distance, carefully avoiding hitting Ichigo or Rukia, and landed his mark on Grimmjow's arm--which also stopped Grimmjow's cero. That's some amazing precision from Shinji right there.
I'll also point out that Shinji is certainly NOT weak when it comes to receiving damage. Shinji actually tanked a nasty slash in the back from freaking Aizen! And that was while Shinji was not even wearing his Mask--which boosts a vizard's offensive and defensive capacities.
Last but not least, I want to point out one of the most, if not the most, insane reaction and reflex feat we've seen in the manga. That's right, I'm talking about the scene, in FKT, where Shinji was focused on striking Aizen, and Tousen (who was standing somewhat nearby Aizen) tried to pull a cheap shot and cut Shinji's head off. Seriously, Shinji actually dodged an attack that was half an inch away from his head that he didn't even expect. I mean, you can see it here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...80-page-3.html Tousen's sword was literally half an inch away from Shinji's head before he began to dodge.
Shinji might have seen part of the swing coming a split-second earlier, but the problem is Shinji himself was moving forward/downwards (toward Aizen). In other words, Shinji had to stop and then bend backwards to avoid Tousen's blade (which Shinji didn't fully avoid; he still got cut). Doesn't change the fact that Tousen's sword was already cutting through his hair before Shinji bent backward and dodged. Also, notice the speed at which Tousen's blade was traveling here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...80-page-4.html ...Yet Shinji's insane reflexes still allowed him to keep his head.
Last edited by Jackk; March 16, 2011 at 02:05 AM.
You're forgetting one thing. It changes PERCEPTION. It doesn't change the sense of reiatsu, it doesn't affect the sense of hearing. All Sakanade does is change the sense of perception, reversing it. Even reversing everything is not enough to beat a tank. Technically, if Kenpachi beat a guy in bankai, deaf and blind, beating a guy in Shikai should be a walk in the park. Head shots? When will Shinji get the chance? You guys act like Ken will be sitting still waiting to be attacked! He's the one that'll initiate the battle if anything. Ken figures his way out of a lot of things. This i feel would be one of them.
Last edited by freshseth83; March 16, 2011 at 02:38 AM.
Btw Shinji sometimes could be as dumb as Tousen like on this occasion .
A frontier unreleased , unmasked atack to Aizen with full knowledge of aizen abilties and knowing what he can do . And almost lost his head on the process .He trained and waited 100+ years to get revenge from Aizen and He rushed like a berserker . As we all know Aizen would have killed him on that occasion if he wanted to .
And after that strike, He looks like, takes his lesson and start to talk about be caution .
This fight can go either way cause we did see a similiar fight Tousen vs kenpachi but I would give this one to Shinji cause of the hype and shinji's versatile . But that does not change the fact that, this is a bad match up for him cause kenpachi would have e decent chance to win if you go melee against Kenpachi, be haxxed or not .Ofc exception of aizen , yama level .
Last edited by Darkp; March 16, 2011 at 06:44 AM.