Zaraki Kenpachi vs Hirako Shinji

[El Samurai Guapo]

I wouldn't say completely unleashes the power of their Hollow. From what I can tell, when the Hollow actually takes control, that's the full power (or as full as you can get without actually turning into one) of the Hollow. Putting on the mask is a boost, but I don't believe it's using the Hollow to its full extent. Like when the Hollow saved Ichigo from Byakuya. We saw a pretty massive boost to be able to catch his sword barehanded, the speed to Shunpo behind him and cut him up, and it also healed Ichigo, who 30 seconds earlier, couldn't even move. The healing especially makes me think that simply putting on the mask isn't really using the Hollow as well as they could be. I'd always figured Tousen had the better version, but that's just me.

That's all going to depend on how well in control of their inner-hollow they are. If they have complete control over it, there's no reason why the hollow shouldn't lend them all of its power. The instance you mentioned with Ichigo and Byakuya, I think it's just cause the hollow knew how to fight better (at least at that point anyway). Doesn't mean that the hollow didn't lend him his full strength eventually. In fact, I'd wager that this Ichigo (the strongest one other than dangai) would have easily done the same or worse to Byakuya.

---

I can't agree with you on the eyepatch not being a significant boost for Kenpachi. Against Shikai Ichigo he only unleashed it for the final attack. His Zanpakutou breaking means nothing as he doesn't rely on it's power at all to the point where it probably makes him weaker than he could be. Also the "Shikai Ichigo" that he tied with was obviously using a significant amount of hollow power as an image of his hollow was showing in his spiritual pressure and his mask appeared on his body. Against Nnoitra the eyepatch did make a difference. I'm pretty sure Nnoitra released because of it in fact. Hollow mask is pretty much a berserker power. They move faster, are stronger, can shoot Ceros, and can tank damage but it only last for a limited time and overuse results in high fatigue. Kenpachis eyepatch holds back his true power back, it doesn't tire him out and isn't limited to a time.

Kenpachi with his eyepatch is stronger than all the vizards in base. With their mask on and without his eyepatch I'd say they about equal each other out strength and tanking wise. Speed however is in the Vizards favor.

That's only if they use it stupidly like Ichigo and Mashiro though. The other vaizards seem to know how to use the mask efficiently taking it on and off as necessary.

[Takahashi]

That's all going to depend on how well in control of their inner-hollow they are. If they have complete control over it, there's no reason why the hollow shouldn't lend them all of its power. The instance you mentioned with Ichigo and Byakuya, I think it's just cause the hollow knew how to fight better (at least at that point anyway). Doesn't mean that the hollow didn't lend him his full strength eventually. In fact, I'd wager that this Ichigo (the strongest one other than dangai) would have easily done the same or worse to Byakuya.

What about the healing? Which I assume was some kind of HSR. Also, as you know, I'm a firm supporter of the "Ichigo was stronger in SS" idea, so I don't buy that the Ichigo that beat Grimm would have done that to Byakuya.

Anyhoo, no need to get into a whole thing here. But I've always seen Ichigo at the bottom, the Vaizards at the middle, and Tousen at the top.

Ichigo gets a boost, but can't use Cero or anything like that. The Vaizards can, and have better control (save maybe Dumbass Mashiro). And Tousen had HSR as well as a Resurrection, not the best move, but it's a new state, so it obviously requires some kind of different dominance over the Hollow.

[Sodalit]

I don't like Shinji (He looks like a Nnoitra, who looks like a pedophile.), but I just can't believe, that so many people actually think, that Shinji's Inverted World means so little (If nothing at all...) and that Zaraki will overcome it in a blink of an eye.
Let's face it - Zaraki is a retard, and he only won ONE serious fight* due to plot-twist and Tite's (Tits xD) Trolling.
Damn, Hirako's Shikai is the second HAXest-batshit-broken ability in Bleach! Even Aizen had problems with this ability, and he won only because he had LOLillusions. Aizen even said, that "Battle of Shinigami is a battle od Reiatsu" -> Shinji was able to harm Aizen, so:
a) His ability is broken and HAX,
b) That says something about Shinji's level - inluding his reiatsu.
Only Kyouka Suigetsu is better than Hirako's SK.


Shinji wins.


*Serious fight = you can die in it, your enemy matches you in power. 50% chances of KIA.

[El Samurai Guapo]

What about the healing? Which I assume was some kind of HSR. Also, as you know, I'm a firm supporter of the "Ichigo was stronger in SS" idea, so I don't buy that the Ichigo that beat Grimm would have done that to Byakuya.

- I honestly never saw that as HSR. I saw the reason for Ichigo standing there motionless as being moreso due to him running out of gas, rather than being too injured to move. When the hollow took over the body, it likely fought ignoring any pain, as well as using its own reiatsu to "recharge" Ichigo a bit (which is why Ichigo was able to move even after he wrested control back).

- You don't have to buy it, but it's true. The Ichigo I linked to in the last post was superior to the one that fought Byakuya in every way. An Ichigo that uses his bankai stupidly (overusing the speed an injuring himself) and that did not even know yet how to fire the black GTs is supposed to be superior? Only those who like to downplay the boost he got from hollowfication (and in turn the power of the vaizards) believe that.

That Ichigo that fought Ulquiorra would have rushed straight at Byakuya, burst through his wall of senbonzakura, and gotten right in his face leaving Byakuya with a wide eyed expression. Ichigo then looking up at him with these eyes

says (with hollowfied voice) Getsuga Tenshou and fires it from a point-blank range.

[Takahashi]

- I honestly never saw that as HSR. I saw the reason for Ichigo standing there motionless as being moreso due to him running out of gas, rather than being too injured to move. When the hollow took over the body, it likely fought ignoring any pain, as well as using its own reiatsu to "recharge" Ichigo a bit (which is why Ichigo was able to move even after he wrested control back).

At any rate, we see nothing similar from the act of just putting on a mask, which is what makes me think that in addition to him being a better fighter overall, there's also other benefits to be had.

- You don't have to buy it, but it's true. The Ichigo I linked to in the last post was superior to the one that fought Byakuya in every way. An Ichigo that uses his bankai stupidly (overusing the speed an injuring himself) and that did not even know yet how to fire the black GTs is supposed to be superior? Only those who like to downplay the boost he got from hollowfication (and in turn the power of the vaizards) believe that.

You don't have to buy that Kensei didn't lose to WW either, but I don't bug you about it.

That Ichigo that fought Ulquiorra would have rushed straight at Byakuya, burst through his wall of senbonzakura, and gotten right in his face leaving Byakuya with a wide eyed expression. Ichigo then looking up at him with these eyes

says (with hollowfied voice) Getsuga Tenshou and fires it from a point-blank range.

Nah.

[Jackk]

First off because he has low feats from his cutting power = low cutting power.

No. That doesn't equate to low cutting power.

Also Jackk you can keep on trying to prove whatever but Shinji has no wins vs nobody or any decent feats.

Regarding the bold, Really?

-How about Shinji outrunning two other captains?

-Shinji showing good shunpo skills, which Kenpachi completely lacks?

-Being a former experienced captain from 100+ years ago. The only one who suspected of Aizen's treacherous nature and made him his VC to keep an eye on him?

-Sealed Shinji--while carrying Hiyori in one of his arms--blocking an attack from hollow Mashiro?

-Shinji never went into a berserk-hollow mode. In fact, Shinji showed some really good resistance while his comrades were already on the ground; Shinji was the last one to finally fall to the ground to that hollowfication. How about that one?

-Undergoing hollowfication--which expanded his shinigami limits-- and currently has a Mask that significantly boosts his speed as well as his overall offensive and defensive capacities even further? As well as Shinji telling Aizen that he has mastered his hollowfication?

-Shinji's great precision/accuracy when shooting a kido blast from a distance and still being able to hit his mark perfectly on Grimmjow's arm, stopping the cero that Grimmjow was about to use to shoot Rukia's head at point blank range, as well as carefully avoiding hitting Ichigo or Rukia with that kido blast?

-Shinji's cero that was shot from a distance (closer range and/or point blank would do more damage)--which gave Grimmjow time to use his own cero to reduce the damage--yet Grimmjow was still completely overpowered and he was severally damaged by Shinji's cero even though Grimmjow didn't actually receive a direct hit. And it's also worth noting that Grimmjow even has hierro, which is something that Kenpachi lacks completely. How about that?

-There's the scene, in FKT, where Shinji was focused on striking Aizen, and Tousen (who was standing somewhat nearby Aizen) tried to pull a cheap shot and cut Shinji's head off. Shinji actually dodged an attack that was half an inch away from his head that he didn't even expect. Heck Shinji himself was moving forward/downwards (toward Aizen). In other words, Shinji had to stop and then bend backwards to avoid Tousen's blade--which was already cutting through his hair before he began to dodge. And Tousen outright stated that he was seriously trying to cut off Shinji's head. Yet Shinji's insane reflex allowed him to keep his head. How about that?

Do you really not see any of that as indication of Shinji actually being strong and/or skilled? Do you really not think that ANY of that is even a decent feat from Shinji? Seriously? Sorry, but if you truly believe that Shinji does not even have any decent feats, then you must be biased beyond repair.

Also, Aizen countering Shinji's sakanade does not equate to Kenpachi being able to do the same. Aizen =/= Kenpachi.

Also i like how you ignore his caracter completly and base your argumens on how he is going to use his mask.

I didn't ignore Shinji's character completely. Heck you're the one who actually seems to be ignoring Kenpachi's character (personality) completely. Truly ironic. As I told you before, if you want to really go so strongly by personality then I could say that Kenpachi will be letting Shinji hit him, Kenpachi will be trying to drag the fight, Kenpachi will not be taking off his eye-patch at the start and Kenpachi will certainly not use Kendo unless he sees that he's about to die in the next hit. All these things work against Kenpachi. He may get more serious at some point, but until then...Shinji could take advantage of Kenpachi's personality and deal fatal wounds and seriously injure him, to say the least.

Kenpachi may fight with his eyes open at first and this will be really bad for him as he will certainly be confused by all the inversions from sakanade. If Kenpachi at some point closes his eyes, he still does not have a reliable counter. By closing his eyes Kenpachi still places himself at a disadvantage because he is not able to see things coming his way; Kenpachi will not be able to fight properly. And we also know that Shinji is very fast. We have seen Shinji outrunning two other captains and we have seen Shinji displaying good shunpo skills--which is something that Kenpachi completely lacks. Also, Shinji is not Tousen. We already saw how Shinji was able to dodge a cheap shot in the head from Tousen that Shinji wasn't even expecting; Shinji has insane reflexes. Shinji is superior to Tousen in base skills. Otherwise Tousen would have managed to cut off Shinji's head.

The same individual that decided that his mask is going to be useless in a fight with Aizen is going to decide its going to be good vs Ken. Right ...

What? ...When did Shinji state that he had decided that his Mask was going to be useless in a fight with Aizen?

If anything, Shinji underestimated the situation and underestimated Aizen, but as I have already pointed out in another post, Shinji actually became more cautious after that as he told his comrades not to approach Aizen without a plan due to how dangerous Aizen's ability was. And there's Shinji later strategically staying back--while the other captains rushed to attacked Aizen--and waiting for a moment to strategically utilize Sakanade to fool Aizen. Granted the tactic there ultimately didn't succeed in damaging the real Aizen due to LOLillusions, but Shinji was actually using his brain more at that point.

Furthermore, Shinji's 1 one 1 fight with Aizen merely got interrupted by Ichigo, thus I believe that it's very possible that Shinji was going to finally opt to use his Mask to face Aizen had Ichigo not arrived at that particular moment. Sure, that's an opinion of mine;however, it is a logical one. There is nothing that indicates that Shinji was not planning to use his Mask at all at some point, specially since his fight was interrupted. Therefore, yes, I do believe that Shinji will use his Mask against Kenpachi at some point.

It's not as if we have a large sample of fights from Shinji in which he didn't use his Mask. You know, Shinji even used his Mask on freaking Grimmjow--soon after they began fighting--just to show off. And with that, I could even make a case for Shinji quickly using his Mask and then activating shikai if Kenpachi still shows resistance. There is no rule that says that Shinji's personality is to not use his Mask against his opponents. He actually used it on Grimmjow but didn't use it on Aizen;however, Shinji's fight with Aizen was actually interrupted by Ichigo. A case could be made for Shinji using his Mask against Kenpachi. You cannot say for sure that Shinji will not use his Mask; it comes down to opinion. And I personally believe that if Shinji sees the need for it, he WILL use his Mask at some point against Kenpachi.

or all you posts here are just asumtions?

No, all my posts here are not just assumptions. I've provided manga evidence to support my reasoning.

Nevertheless, I'm certainly also using some assumptions in this fight, but so are you and pretty much everyone else in here. Logical assumptions can be made in this tournament for the purpose of the discussion. A perfect example are the fights in which Tessai has been involved. People have stated that Tessai would use things that we have never even seen him use in actual combat yet, but since most of those assumptions are logical to some extent (we know that he should logically be able to utilize certain things as the former kido captain), they are still allowed. Same thing here with Shinji, some logical assumptions are allowed.

now who has Shinji defeated?

That's irrelevant for this match.

Now i am going to w8 for people to show me who has Shinji defeated with that overpowered Shikai of his. Up to that Ken can overcome it easy.

Logical fallacy. Aizen =/= Kenpachi.

Jackk
It's really imposible to actually talking with you, cause you claim that your opponents don't want to understand what you try to explain, yet you yourself is the first one that completly ignores what others are trying to say.

Don't lie. I didn't ignore anything. You're proving, again, that you haven't been reading what people voting for Shinji have been stating. I as well as other people have countered several things and explained the reasoning. I don't want to repeat myself all over again. Go back and read previous posts.

You actually has no proof of yourself being 100% right

Missing the point...

but still you are just saying that everything that your opponents try to bring as

Half-truth.

No. There was a particular comment that you made which I labeled as "half-truth." Do you not know what that means? That is a type of fallacy--which your previous comment contained.

or

Opinion.

The comment that you made which I labeled as opinion was because it was exactly that, just an opinion of yours. Also, I never stated that I wasn't using opinions myself. I'm using some opinions too; we all are to a certain extent otherwise there would be no debate at all. It's just that you tend to claim lots of things as fact when they're really not, thus I corrected you by stating that what you were claiming was only your opinion. I as well as other people have expressed an opinion that differs from yours and evidence to support such reasoning as been presented.

I can also say the same to you:

There is evidence that suggests the opposite of what you're claiming.

Where is the evidence? Unless it would be the same you called my post -

Opinion.

The evidence is in the history and feats of Shinji which I've pointed out countless times already, and I still didn't label every single one of my conclusions as fact. Look, this is what you claimed:

He will need to slice him the whole day and Ken will need just one swing to take down Shinji, cause he isn't a powerhouse.

How is that not just your opinion? What concrete proof do you have for Kenpachi just needing one swing to take down Shinji? None. You say that because "Shinji is not a powerhouse" ...but where is your proof for that? Nowhere. All I'm saying is that if you're going to make such claims, you should really support them with actual evidence. You're failing to do. The Tousen fight is NOT evidence. Tousen and Shinji are different.

And seriously, if Shinji is as weak as you claim, how was Shinji able to tank a nasty slash in the back from freaking Aizen? Not to mention that Shinji tanked that without his Mask--which boosts his offensive and defensive capacities. I don't see how Kenpachi will just bring down Shinji with one swing.

I gave my explanation of this, but you just ignored it.

I did not ignore anything from you. What you presented was just full of logical fallacies so I pointed them out.

Ken managed to take Bankai that obliterated all his senses, that's obvious that there won't be any problem to counter Shikai that only mindfucks your vision.

See? that right there is a proof by example logical fallacy. You're stating that because kenpachi was able to beat Tousen back in the SS arc, then Kenpachi can definitely beat Shinji. But it doesn't work like that at all. Tousen =/= Shinji. Kenpachi Vs Shinji has different factors involved, which you're constantly ignoring.

He just needs to close the eyes and do the same he did against Tousen.

Kenpachi just needs to close his eyes? Can't you at least recognize that Kenpachi still places himself at a disadvantage by closing his eyes by virtue of not being able to see things coming his way and not being able to fight properly? I don't see how Kenpachi has a reliable counter.

And Sealed Shinji isn't in anyway better than Tousen. And there is no proof in the manga, cause actually Shinji never had any actual preformance, so I don't understand how Shinji might have shown anything to be considered better than sealed Tousen.

Really?

There's actually the scene, in FKT, where Shinji was focused on striking Aizen, and Tousen (who was standing somewhat nearby Aizen) tried to pull a cheap shot and cut Shinji's head off. Shinji actually dodged an attack that was half an inch away from his head that he didn't even expect from Tousen. Heck Shinji himself was moving forward/downwards (toward Aizen). In other words, Shinji had to stop and then bend backwards to avoid Tousen's blade--which was already cutting through his hair before he began to dodge. And Tousen outright stated that he was seriously trying to cut off Shinji's head. Yet Shinji's insane reflexes allowed him to keep his head. Doesn't that show that Shinji was faster and more skilled than Tousen? You know, if that wasn't the case... then Shinji would have lost his head.

I know what it means

No you didn't know what proof by example meant. It's a type of logical fallacy. Your previous response to me made it obvious that you had no idea what I was pointing out. Doesn't change the fact that several of your arguments had flaws though. You don't seem to understand that Kenpachi beating Tousen back in the SS arc does NOT automatically equate to Kenpachi being able to beat Shinji. A Kenpachi Vs Shinji fight has different factors that you are completely ignoring. Different fighters have different capacities, personalities, and abilities.

Oh, and it seems Jackk's been infected by CeroOskuraz Although it seems to be getting a negative reaction, may not wanna keep up with it...

I wouldn't say that. I'm not insulting anyone nor am I overusing one-liners. Though I did see the need to point out the fallacies in some of the statements that were being made here--specially the argument that Kenpachi will easily beat Shinji due to Kenpachi beating Tousen in the SS arc. That is a clear logical fallacy and you know it Takahashi. Why? Because it is ignoring several factors, some of which even you have pointed out in one of your posts. Heck some people are not only claiming that Kenpachi wins, but also that he actually stomps and that Shinji doesn't even have any decent feats--which I find ridiculous, and you probably do too. Be honest.

[El Samurai Guapo]

At any rate, we see nothing similar from the act of just putting on a mask, which is what makes me think that in addition to him being a better fighter overall, there's also other benefits to be had.

What other benefits do you need? They become substantially better overall. That's pretty much what I said from the start, they get a boost in every field of combat.

You don't have to buy that Kensei didn't lose to WW either, but I don't bug you about it.

Well maybe you don't but the rest of the forum does. Speaking of which, I came across a comment on a YouTube video featuring Kensei that I liked:

"My theory was that Aizen cut down Kensei during his fight with WW, while the other captains were busy cutting up poor Momo.  Wonderweiss was the only arrancar that Aizen actually needed, so it would make sense that he would make sure that he was safe until he sealed Yamamoto's zanpakuto."

That actually sounds a lot similar to a theory I mentioned in the past, but I like the way this person worded it. Someone please tell me how Kensei getting off-paneled by a numero is more likely than the above.

[Takahashi]

What other benefits do you need? They become substantially better overall. That's pretty much what I said from the start, they get a boost in every field of combat.

I know it's a substantial boost, but you specifically said it was complete control. I personally think there's more "control" available, judging from what we've seen from Tousen and Ichigo.

Well maybe you don't but the rest of the forum does.

Well I can't tell them what to do :P

Speaking of which, I came across a comment on a YouTube video featuring Kensei that I liked:

"My theory was that Aizen cut down Kensei during his fight with WW, while the other captains were busy cutting up poor Momo.  Wonderweiss was the only arrancar that Aizen actually needed, so it would make sense that he would make sure that he was safe until he sealed Yamamoto's zanpakuto."

That actually sounds a lot similar to a theory I mentioned in the past, but I like the way this person worded it. Someone please tell me how Kensei getting off-paneled by a numero is more likely than the above.

Because sometimes people get off paneled? Look at poor Yammy, he had far more hype than Kensei, and he got that treatment.

Anyway, I don't care enough about the subject to argue over it, nor do I particularly want to.

[El Samurai Guapo]

No. That doesn't equate to low cutting power.



Regarding the bold, Really?

-How about Shinji outrunning two other captains?

-Shinji showing good shunpo skills, which Kenpachi completely lacks?

-Being a former experienced captain from 100+ years ago. The only one who suspected of Aizen's treacherous nature and made him his VC to keep an eye on him?

-Sealed Shinji--while carrying Hiyori in one of his arms--blocking an attack from hollow Mashiro?

-Shinji never went into a berserk-hollow mode. In fact, Shinji showed some really good resistance while his comrades were already on the ground; Shinji was the last one to finally fall to the ground to that hollowfication. How about that one?

-Undergoing hollowfication--which expanded his shinigami limits-- and currently has a Mask that significantly boosts his speed as well as his overall offensive and defensive capacities even further? As well as Shinji telling Aizen that he has mastered his hollowfication?

-Shinji's great precision/accuracy when shooting a kido blast from a distance and still being able to hit his mark perfectly on Grimmjow's arm, stopping the cero that Grimmjow was about to use to shoot Rukia's head at point blank range, as well as carefully avoiding hitting Ichigo or Rukia with that kido blast?

-Shinji's cero that was shot from a distance (closer range and/or point blank would do more damage)--which gave Grimmjow time to use his own cero to reduce the damage--yet Grimmjow was still completely overpowered and he was severally damaged by Shinji's cero even though Grimmjow didn't actually receive a direct hit. And it's also worth noting that Grimmjow even has hierro, which is something that Kenpachi lacks completely. How about that?

-There's the scene, in FKT, where Shinji was focused on striking Aizen, and Tousen (who was standing somewhat nearby Aizen) tried to pull a cheap shot and cut Shinji's head off. Shinji actually dodged an attack that was half an inch away from his head that he didn't even expect. Heck Shinji himself was moving forward/downwards (toward Aizen). In other words, Shinji had to stop and then bend backwards to avoid Tousen's blade--which was already cutting through his hair before he began to dodge. And Tousen outright stated that he was seriously trying to cut off Shinji's head. Yet Shinji's insane reflex allowed him to keep his head. How about that?

Another example of Shinji's speed was when he was easily dodging Grimmjow's attacks in Karakura town before he even put his mask on. That's when he said something about if he keeps on dodging he's going to keep breaking things. Meanwhile bankai Ichigo without the mask got easily blitzed by Grimmjow. Really if there's anything that we learned from that whole encounter between Shinji and Grimmjow it's that sealed Shinji is superior to bankai Ichigo.

---

I know it's a substantial boost, but you specifically said it was complete control. I personally think there's more "control" available, judging from what we've seen from Tousen and Ichigo.

I said the vaizards likely have complete control of their inner-hollow, allowing them to use all of its power. Kaname's hollowfication was different as explained in-detail by Jackk (I'm sure if you ask nicely he'll direct you to the post I have in mind). Even if it wasn't different though, you do realize not all hollows have HSR, right? Couldn't it just be that Kaname's inner-hollow happened to possess that trait?

Because sometimes people get off paneled? Look at poor Yammy, he had far more hype than Kensei, and he got that treatment.

Anyway, I don't care enough about the subject to argue over it, nor do I particularly want to.

Umm, yes, nobody is arguing that he didn't get off-paneled. The question is: by whom?

[Takahashi]

I said the vaizards likely have complete control of their inner-hollow, allowing them to use all of its power. Kaname's hollowfication was different as explained in-detail by Jackk (I'm sure if you ask nicely he'll direct you to the post I have in mind). Even if it wasn't different though, you do realize not all hollows have HSR, right? Couldn't it just be that Kaname's inner-hollow happened to possess that trait?

Maybe, maybe not. I wasn't saying anything definitive, as I clearly don't know. I just suspect that there's more to it than what the Vaizards have shown.

Umm, yes, nobody is arguing that he didn't get off-paneled. The question is: by whom?

WonderWeiss

Again, not doing this

[kkck]

Obviously the mask is a much bigger boost than removing the eyepatch. Hollowfication completely unleashes the power of their inner-hollow and boosts every area of combat. All removing the eyepatch does is stops those leeches on the inside of the patch from eating all of Kenpachi's excess reiatsu (which he has poor control of anyway). He gets a decent boost yes, but it's nothing comparable to hollowfication. Taking off the patch didn't help him too much against shikai Ichigo (he still got his zanpakutou sliced in half). Against Nnoitora, Kenpachi was already slicing through his hierro easily while patched, taking the eyepatch off didn't make a huge difference. I personally don't think Kenpachi would even be a match for Love (who's basically his vaizard equivalent).

That is a big statement.... we don't know how much reiatsu the patch consumes so we really can't say for sure. Eyepatch kempachi was roughly equal to sealed nnoitora and removing the eyepatch was enough of a boost for kempachi to quite literally manhandle him. Upon resurreccion the tables changed which does show nnoitora had a reasonably powerful resurreccion. Once kempachi added kendo to the equation the extra finesse made a huge difference and nnoitora was pawned. Along with the eyepatch boost we also have to consider the implications of the whole kendo thing. The fight with nnoitora basically told us that kempachi regularly does not use any form of finesse or technique with his sword. He is basically a very strong thug who at best swings his sword around like a maniac. Kempachi might as well be fighting as if he did not know how to fight. Even then, in spite of kempachi getting unnecessarily hurt and tiring himself, he is able to react and take people who fight from the very start with kendo or whatever other martial art they do use as equals. This is extremely significant as to the sheer amount of reiatsu kempachi has. Kendo isn't something kempachi has and others don't, it is something everyone uses out of sheer habit. Basically kempachi using kendo means he is doing what anyone with common sense would do. Kempachi, even with his eyepatch on, has an overwhelming amount of reiatsu to say the least. In all likelyhood kempachi's reiatsu even with the eyepatch on is much higher than what a captain normally has considering he has match and even best captain level people while fighting in the worst possible manner. As I see it, the eyepatch boost is a bit of an unknown quantity. The mask boost has shown to be considerable but we have to consider that people we have seen using it have used their power and technique efficiently from the start while in turn kempachi has been fighting like a maniac and doing everything he can to make himself weaker. Kempachi's reiatsu might actually be large enough that removing the eyepatch does provide a greater boost than mask. I really can't imagine any of the vizards with a sealed sword one shooting any of the espada at all honestly. Heck, love with mask and shikai did not even kill starrk lol. To be completely honest, I don't think any of the captains or vizards could take on kempachi in melee, it comes down to their abilities.

[kamakazi_1996]

Another example of Shinji's speed was when he was easily dodging Grimmjow's attacks in Karakura town before he even put his mask on. That's when he said something about if he keeps on dodging he's going to keep breaking things. Meanwhile bankai Ichigo without the mask got easily blitzed by Grimmjow. Really if there's anything that we learned from that whole encounter between Shinji and Grimmjow it's that sealed Shinji is superior to bankai Ichigo.

i dont think shinji speed is as superior to bankai ichigo, ichigo at that time never had proper control over his powers the first time his hollow kept trying to take over and ichigo was fighting to keep control and the second time he used his mask too soon and ended up exhausting himself it was only when he had finally suppressed his hollow and learned how to control it, he was able to fight on par with grimjow

[freshseth83]

kkck made a good point in the cutting power. You had the strongest hierro and arguably the strongest (physical) espada bar Yammi's released form, and Kenpachi was eating his blows and giving them right back. I seriously doubt Shinji, even with his sakanade could match that. Even with his hollow mask I doubt he could match it. Not because Shinji is weak, but because the cutting power of Nnoitra was multiplied by the amount of arms (6) that he had. Sure Shinji may be fast, but he's not going to be slicing Kenpachi up and leaving him for dead. It doesn't matter how 'trick' Sakanade is. The facts are, the only thing increasing Shinji's powers are mask. Shikai doesn't seem to add to the effect of cutting, it just fools the sense of sight. I'm not trying to downplay Shinji at all, but you can't downplay Kenpachi either. Based on feats and accomplishments, Shinji is the better all around guy. But all around isn't going to work on Kenpachi. It seems like people underestimate him and say he's just some stupid brute who runs around like a caveman. While that may be his outward appearance, the truth is he's a pretty analytical guy. He's proven this more than once.

[xXan]

@Jackk

No. That doesn't equate to low cutting power.

Yes it does. The fact that he has no feats there means he can't do it.


-How about Shinji outrunning two other captains?

Ukitake and Shunsui run from Yama Ji for a good distance before stoping to face Yama Ji there. This is irrelevant because we all know U and S running from Yama Ji means nothing because they would get stomped in a fight with him. Even Yoruichi run from Byakuya with Ichigo in her arms but does that mean she can beat him? I don't think so.

Shinji showing good shunpo skills, which Kenpachi completely lacks?

This is relevant how? He already defeated 2 captains with no shunpo. Good feats for shunpo would be from Soifon created images. Shunpo is about basic ability for captains.

-Being a former experienced captain from 100+ years ago. The only one who suspected of Aizen's treacherous nature and made him his VC to keep an eye on him?

And as Aizen stated that worked to his advantage and actualy helped Aizen. Also the 100+ years are irrelevant to me. I need to show me what he can do in battle not the number of years he has. Also this genius individual decided to take on Aizen (the same individual he trained for 100 years to take down) with no mask on... Just to show how "good" he is.

-Sealed Shinji--while carrying Hiyori in one of his arms--blocking an attack from hollow Mashiro?

Lol and you whant to compare stuff like this with what Ken can stop with HIS BARE HANDS?

-Shinji never went into a berserk-hollow mode. In fact, Shinji showed some really good resistance while his comrades were already on the ground; Shinji was the last one to finally fall to the ground to that hollowfication. How about that one?

There is a posibility he was the last to be hit by whatever that thing was. Now this is irrelevant because its a useless feat in the sense that it can't help him in now way in this fight ... Or are you sugesting Ken has a poison that turns people hollow? This is a bad feat because its irrelevant to this discusion.

-Undergoing hollowfication--which expanded his shinigami limits-- and currently has a Mask that significantly boosts his speed as well as his overall offensive and defensive capacities even further? As well as Shinji telling Aizen that he has mastered his hollowfication?

If he has no feats with this "expanded shinigami limits" then its irrelevant.
Love and the other dude got completly owned by 1 espada.

-Shinji's great precision/accuracy when shooting a kido blast from a distance and still being able to hit his mark perfectly on Grimmjow's arm, stopping the cero that Grimmjow was about to use to shoot Rukia's head at point blank range, as well as carefully avoiding hitting Ichigo or Rukia with that kido blast?

So he has some accuracy with his Kido? Big deal they all have. Byakuya stoping Renji's bankai mode with a kido is way more impresive then this. Also Grim was not aware of Shinji and Shinji got a clear shot at him. Again big deal.

-Shinji's cero that was shot from a distance (closer range and/or point blank would do more damage)--which gave Grimmjow time to use his own cero to reduce the damage--yet Grimmjow was still completely overpowered and he was severally damaged by Shinji's cero even though Grimmjow didn't actually receive a direct hit. And it's also worth noting that Grimmjow even has hierro, which is something that Kenpachi lacks completely. How about that?

How about what? You do know Shinji is fighting someone that can stop cero with his bare hands right?

-There's the scene, in FKT, where Shinji was focused on striking Aizen, and Tousen (who was standing somewhat nearby Aizen) tried to pull a cheap shot and cut Shinji's head off. Shinji actually dodged an attack that was half an inch away from his head that he didn't even expect. Heck Shinji himself was moving forward/downwards (toward Aizen). In other words, Shinji had to stop and then bend backwards to avoid Tousen's blade--which was already cutting through his hair before he began to dodge. And Tousen outright stated that he was seriously trying to cut off Shinji's head. Yet Shinji's insane reflex allowed him to keep his head. How about that?

How about Ken dodging a blade from Tousen after it actualy made impact with his body and having 0 senses aside from tactile sense(not completly of course)? This owns that feat of yours.

Do you really not see any of that as indication of Shinji actually being strong and/or skilled? Do you really not think that ANY of that is even a decent feat from Shinji? Seriously? Sorry, but if you truly believe that Shinji does not even have any decent feats, then you must be biased beyond repair.

Compared to what other people showed these are not even decent feats yes. Perhaps we gauge them diferently but this is how i see it.

Also, Aizen countering Shinji's sakanade does not equate to Kenpachi being able to do the same. Aizen =/= Kenpachi.

You missed the point. You stated Shjinji shikai is all that. Now what i said is show me who exacly has that blade overwhelm or whatever. You expect me to asume this thing is going to overwhelm Ken when the damn Shikai has no feats?

I didn't ignore Shinji's character completely. Heck you're the one who actually seems to be ignoring Kenpachi's character (personality) completely. Truly ironic. As I told you before, if you want to really go so strongly by personality then I could say that Kenpachi will be letting Shinji hit him, Kenpachi will be trying to drag the fight, Kenpachi will not be taking off his eye-patch at the start and Kenpachi will certainly not use Kendo unless he sees that he's about to die in the next hit. All these things work against Kenpachi. He may get more serious at some point, but until then...Shinji could take advantage of Kenpachi's personality and deal fatal wounds and seriously injure him, to say the least.

Ken let Ichigo a free hit only because he was so weak at first. Ken does not exacly let people hit him. He goes in a berserker mode and does not give a shit if he is hit in the process.

Kenpachi may fight with his eyes open at first and this will be really bad for him as he will certainly be confused by all the inversions from sakanade. If Kenpachi at some point closes his eyes, he still does not have a reliable counter. By closing his eyes Kenpachi still places himself at a disadvantage because he is not able to see things coming his way; Kenpachi will not be able to fight properly. And we also know that Shinji is very fast. We have seen Shinji outrunning two other captains and we have seen Shinji displaying good shunpo skills--which is something that Kenpachi completely lacks. Also, Shinji is not Tousen. We already saw how Shinji was able to dodge a cheap shot in the head from Tousen that Shinji wasn't even expecting; Shinji has insane reflexes. Shinji is superior to Tousen in base skills. Otherwise Tousen would have managed to cut off Shinji's head.

Ken has lots of time to figure out and fight back. He can tank hits from Shinji all day. Also there is no way Shikai Shinji>Bankai Tousen. Expecialy with a shikai that has 0 feats.

What? ...When did Shinji state that he had decided that his Mask was going to be useless in a fight with Aizen?

He never said so he SHOWED so. He whent in with no mask... Vs a individual that he trained for 100 years to defeat ... What a moron.

If anything, Shinji underestimated the situation and underestimated Aizen, but as I have already pointed out in another post, Shinji actually became more cautious after that as he told his comrades not to approach Aizen without a plan due to how dangerous Aizen's ability was. And there's Shinji later strategically staying back--while the other captains rushed to attacked Aizen--and waiting for a moment to strategically utilize Sakanade to fool Aizen. Granted the tactic there ultimately didn't succeed in damaging the real Aizen due to LOLillusions, but Shinji was actually using his brain more at that point.

Underestimade its not a excuse after you train for 100 years to defeat a oponent. Imagine 100 years of prep time LOL and he failed miserably.

It's not as if we have a large sample of fights from Shinji in which he didn't use his Mask. You know, Shinji even used his Mask on freaking Grimmjow--soon after they began fighting--just to show off. And with that, I could even make a case for Shinji quickly using his Mask and then activating shikai if Kenpachi still shows resistance. There is no rule that says that Shinji's personality is to not use his Mask against his opponents. He actually used it on Grimmjow but didn't use it on Aizen;however, Shinji's fight with Aizen was actually interrupted by Ichigo. A case could be made for Shinji using his Mask against Kenpachi. You cannot say for sure that Shinji will not use his Mask; it comes down to opinion. And I personally believe that if Shinji sees the need for it, he WILL use his Mask at some point against Kenpachi.


Ok let's asume he is going to use his mask of the bat. Now in those 3 minutes(or whatever he was) he is going to do crep to someone like Ken. Ken is going to end up with mosquito bites ...

No, all my posts here are not just assumptions. I've provided manga evidence to support my reasoning.

Nevertheless, I'm certainly also using some assumptions in this fight, but so are you and pretty much everyone else in here. Logical assumptions can be made in this tournament for the purpose of the discussion. A perfect example are the fights in which Tessai has been involved. People have stated that Tessai would use things that we have never even seen him use in actual combat yet, but since most of those assumptions are logical to some extent (we know that he should logically be able to utilize certain things as the former kido captain), they are still allowed. Same thing here with Shinji, some logical assumptions are allowed.

Yes i agree here i exaggerated to much, my bad.

That's irrelevant for this match.

Actualy it is. This is a fight with a dude that already has 2x captains win under his belt vs someone who has none. Do you actualy belive this is irrelevant?

Logical fallacy. Aizen =/= Kenpachi.

Its not and it has nothing to do with Aizen. What i stated was that Shinji never defeated or overpowered anybody with his shikai. If you want to asume that something that has 0 feats its going to overpower Ken then go ahead but its wrong.

[ShootToKill]

You had the strongest hierro and arguably the strongest (physical) espada bar Yammi's released form, and Kenpachi was eating his blows and giving them right back

Hierro doesn't affect Nnoitra's cutting power, and we don't have any evidence about Nnoitra's physical strength being the highest.

I seriously doubt Shinji, even with his sakanade could match that. Even with his hollow mask I doubt he could match it. Not because Shinji is weak, but because the cutting power of Nnoitra was multiplied by the amount of arms (6) that he had. Sure Shinji may be fast, but he's not going to be slicing Kenpachi up and leaving him for dead.

Nnoitra was pretty slow though - so his 6 arms made it a more level playing field in this sense. Kenpachi was being completely overwhelmed by Nnoitra's released form though, until he used "Kendo", which I believe trolled Nnoitra pretty badly.

It doesn't matter how 'trick' Sakanade is. The facts are, the only thing increasing Shinji's powers are mask. Shikai doesn't seem to add to the effect of cutting, it just fools the sense of sight.

I've said this before. However previously you were saying Shinji's Shikai < Tousen's Bankai because it's a Bankai. I have said that neither of them augment base abilities, they work based on illusions / sensory deprivation, so if Shinji's base skills >> Tousen's, then Shinji's in Shikai will be more effective against Ken than Tousen's Bankai.

I'm not trying to downplay Shinji at all, but you can't downplay Kenpachi either. Based on feats and accomplishments, Shinji is the better all around guy. But all around isn't going to work on Kenpachi. It seems like people underestimate him and say he's just some stupid brute who runs around like a caveman. While that may be his outward appearance, the truth is he's a pretty analytical guy. He's proven this more than once.

Shinji has: Speed, The ability to perform Kido, The ability to shoot ceros, Power augmentation from his mask, and a Shikai which means Ken will have to fight with his eyes closed to have any chance of hitting him.
Ken has: Durability, Good reactions (Although from dodging Tousen's attack Tousen's attack, Shinji has also proved to have excellent reactions).

I believe Shinji has too many advantages and ways he could find to defeat Ken, especially if Ken has to fight with his eyes closed. As far as Ken's analytical skills go, I wouldn't call him stupid but I wouldn't say he has had to be especially analytical in his fights up to now either.