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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
A "typical manga badass protagonist?" Do you care to elaborate on how exactly? Character distortion even? I hope you know that you don't make those type of statements without solid explanation. Especially when you're going to disrespect such a well developed character. Also how does him being nice and gentlemanly make him unique in anyway whatsoever especially considering that the nice and gentlemanly aspects were never really his personality to begin with? How does a character's gradual change due to the increasingly complex developments and conflicts in his life considered a bad thing for a story? If Allen had stayed the same throughout the entire series regardless of whatever trials he was going through, then that would mean he hadn't gone through any meaningful development at all. It was also mean that he is an incredibly 2 dimensional and generic character which actually rivals to your reasoning. How many times have you read this manga even? Every stage of Allen's development to the way he is now was very evident and continues to be evident within every mode of introspection the dude goes through. Aesthetic appearance is relative, Allen has changed several times in terms of appearance depending on the drawing style. Finally, if your judgement of an entire series is just based on such a shallow assessment of one character, that's really sad.
Woah, calm down. I didn't mean to upset you or anything. I will explain my view in more details but I doubt you will get it since you look so vehement about your own perspective.
Alright for the part where I said that 'gentleman' type are unique is because you don't really find that trait in modern heroes anymore. Think about Naruto, Edward and hell even Kira from Death Note (if you consider him a 'hero'). When I started this series I was really amazed by the way he was behaving despite all the tragic things that happened to him in the past.
I beg to differ, Allen was absolutely kind in the beginning, theres no denying to that part. Couz if he wasn't then where's the change or the 'complex character' you support? Also he was indeed naïve in the beginning which led him to follow simple acts of righteousness.Quote:
Completely agree, generally audience (and so do I) prefer the protagonist to be dynamic compare to flat characters. The characters must develop more realistic approach to world after facing numerous ordeals. But was it really that way in Allen's case? Allen did not only change his worldly views but also his whole persona itself (Though I partly blame his multiple alter egos for that).Quote:
I would be perfectly honest and tell you not even once. But hey that's exactly why I'm here. I wanted to find out if anyone else dropped it like me and I found this thread which perfectly defined my reason.Quote:
I don't really understand what you mean by that, but speaking of appearance its upsetting to see 'alot' of changes. I mean who in the world goes through this number of changes within a year unless he/she is some kind of fashion geek or something! When you're almost done accepting his 'newlook' he changes it again. If it wasn't for his cool scar on his face I wouldn't even recognize him!Quote:
I reckon that my perspective are totally different from yours, but I can't really help that, can I? And I don't mean to lash out on anyone who is actually enjoying the manga (You're lucky). I'm just grieving for my own shortcomings. I would like to know if theres any other similar manga I could try, because I don't really think I would really be able to continue this one (It hurts when they bring up the same things in a whole new light).
Last edited by CloudStrifeACC; April 29, 2013 at 06:27 AM.
I wasn't upset at you I was really just pointing out that if you're going to criticizer something do it with a clear knowledge of the material or at the very least expound on your views instead of just leaving such shallow comments here and there. My last comment on his appearance is simple, if the drawing style changes then naturally the character looks slightly different in each one. Starting from the start of the series it was a gradual change, he didn't just move from point A to B overnight.
Also your point about Allen being absolutely kind despite all the challenges he's faced in the beginning is false. One of the major developments Allen had to go through was to figure out the value of friends and the human race. The very moments before he got crown clown and clown's edge, this was confirmed when he had to come to the reality that he could no longer fight the love he has for his friends or the responsibilities he had to the human race in order to fulfill his promise to Mana. The relevance of the change Allen went through had nothing to do with him being a "gentleman". The change that Allen has gone through is particularly the adjustments (not changes) that he's made to his resolve and worldly views. You make it sound like he's become some sort of egotistic, loudmouth jerk. Sure he's more expressive now but that's only him being true to his "Real Self" not the "fake gentleman" that Kanda has described. Allen is still kind and generous even up to the point that you quit the series so I really don't see what you're even talking about. I don't see where he's really that much less of a gentleman, but I can see why he's less of a "fake gentleman" who hides behind the mask of a dead man to convince himself that he is destined for some shallow fate. Current Allen recognizes the increasing complexities of the conflicts he's dealing with and recognizes more and more how naive he has been to deny himself, his "true self" when in fact it was this denial in self that has caused so much conflict to build up in the first place.
I don't recall calling his change abrupt or sudden (Except his appearance, it's kinda changing faster now). He did change really gradually but then there came a point when I couldn't even remember who he was! His kindness, sure it's still there, but that kind of kindness, self-sacrificing and other things are common in most of the heroes. What I really felt unique about his humbleness has almost completely vanished. And also all his 'realization' of being fake and stuff are also a part of the change. And about his realization at innovating Crown Clown was pretty....baffling. I thought he already 'was' fighting for Mana's sake not to save world (because he never said he is fighting for that reason, he always mentioned his promise to Mana instead). And if you wanna know why he looks loud-mouthed to me, just check out all the arguments he had with Kanda in the series, Allen just keeps getting so different that I started siding with Kanda whom I hated initially. Truth to be told, I mainly liked Allen in the beginning but now I like almost everyone except him.
I might continue the series couz I don't think you'll stop criticizing me unless I do. But the chances I would be convinced with your idea look 0.01% to me. Like I said before, I don't hate the fact he changed , I hate the 'way' he changed. Sure as the protagonist he was bond to change someday, but I didn't expect it to be this way.
P.S: I don't see how leaving an abridged paragraph of your thoughts can be rude or 'shallow'.
Allen's interactions with other characters is what makes him Allen. We've had so much Allen and Kanda contact, and it's been dreafully dull because is just "bakanda" and "moyashi" yelling, with very little nuance on how things have changed. Kanda is indebted to Allen, but can't he still be unhappy with him for a good reason?
Reminds me: what is with Kanda and the Order? He keeps bouncing back and forth, as if the Order has a rubber band connecting him to them.
Relax? Don"t shout? Could you please point out the imaginary exclamation sign seeing as though you can clearly hear the voice of the commenter through words they've typed on a forum. Yes daw, I know a forum is for expressing views which is what I sorta did. I even emphasized that I was not upset at her in like the very first sentence (but clearly you are more skilled at seeing imaginery exclamation points), so what is your point exactly? If you are too sensitive to hearing another persons contrasting views then why bother comment.I'm not forcing anyone to read the manga or to take my side. All I was asking for was an actual explanation using ther material as to why she says what she says. But clearly both of you don't have much of a solid knowledge of the material itself and simply impose your general views on the series to make a point.
B. Please don't use a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
I didn't call her shallow, but her comments sounded pretty shallow because she didn't have any explanations as to the kind of critical statements being made. I never made any direct attacks at the person.Most of what you're arguing sounds pretty hypocritical coming from you as you are indeed guilty of the same thing that you are criticizing. More than often your comments are presumptuous to say the least and it is as if you believe you are Hoshino herself. You seem to have a tendency to try to instill connotations in someone else's comment that wasn't really there. Perhaps the problem here is that you are just too sensitive. Most of my comments had meant no disrespect, but you seem to interpret them in a way that is only convenient to your cause (whatever that is). I don't recall when I called her a lesser fan and you clearly misinterpreted the context in which I used the expression "character distortion" (she was the one who brought up the term I was only questioning the usage of such a term to describe Allen). My last comment was an attack at the level of practicality of your criticisms as applied to the series at current. I don't know or care about whatever the hell "No true Scotsman" fallacy is but I was not assuming the position of the manga. As for your talk about the relevance of aspects like Allen's debt crisis and the other things that make Allen's character fun. How did Johnny find Allen in the first place? Its as if you completely disregard things that aren't supportive of your argument just so you can make a criticism.These things have been explored in recent chapters. Something doesn't have to be emphasized in every chapter for it to still be a part of the character. Especially when there are many more important issues to deal with at current. What time does Allen really have to mess around with things outside the focus of the current story arc? Alot of the things you're criticizing really doesn't take into consideration the current events at all.
The point also still stands that I do not care if you hate Allen or this series. But if you are going to criticize do it based on what is relevant to the series and not the fact that you're upset that a mere aspect pleasing to your preference is not a major feature. I'm sorry if I came across as disrespectful but honestly I don't really see what you're getting so uppity about.
Plus, these are all quirks that were introduced at the very beginning, but there haven't been a lot of new quirks added lately. I've felt like the fun is either recycled or swapped out for excessive drama. I think that too much drama can cheapen the story and make it lose luster.
Whatever you say bro, you're still missing my point. It's true it was decided that gentlemen manner was a mask Allen was wearing but do you recall when was that? It was about 4yrs after the first Chapter. Now it really doesn't look like Katsura Hoshino had the idea of the gentlemen mask all the way before she started her production. Or maybe she did (which is unlikely) couz you're right I'm not Katsura Hoshino if I was, I wouldn't be here.
Anyways, I'm sure you must be still reading the manga but I think I had enough. I was only curious to find out others opinion before I dropped out which I have ,thanks to you. (Now I would probably go on hunt for similar series...)
Thank you very much for showing neutrality. I was preparing to be crushed by hordes of fans!Quote:
Hi, CloudStrife. You're not much newer than me here, but welcome to the forums.
First, I just want to point out Allen hasn't completely lost his Mana-inherited gentlemanly side, even if he stopped using the overly polite Japanese that no one in real life uses except with strangers and social superiors. (Language was what Lenalee and Johnny were talking about when they said he was "less polite," not how he acts around people. Even the Third Exorcists, whom he later admitted he almost hated, were treated with respect. Kanda (comedy) and Tyki Mikk (enemy), are probably the only definite exceptions that I know of; possibly other Noah as well, and maaaybe also Cross. In addition he's always been a little sassy at times-- from early on, he'd talk back to people (Komui in particular) if he thought things were getting out of hand. Definitely whenever his master came up (or appeared in person, lol). Hence the "Dark Allen" thing, which we first heard of when we saw him cheating at cards on the train, way back when. \
Best example of gentlemanly Allen in the entire series imho: An akuma was cursing at poor Miranda (build-up to the Alma arc), & he reprimanded it about treating a lady like that.
Allen says himself he was fighting for the akuma all along, and that's exactly what he was doing because he himself turned Mana into an akuma and he'll forever carry the guilt of doing so. Back during the Aria (Martel) arc, he told Kanda that he had no one precious to him. No living humans. He explained at the time that that was even the reason he was willing to possibly throw his life away for anybody in front of him. Well by the point of CC's reactivation, he does have people he cares dearly about. (I think the very best show of that is how emotional he was while playing the piano on the Ark and wishing for everyone's return.)
Anyway, at that point in the story, he's realized that he has specific, living humans that he wants to be able to protect. Increasingly since he joined the Order, he realizes, the ones he's been fighting for were more the humans by his side than the akuma he's always sought to save. When he went to resync with his innocence after Tyki destroyed it, it didn't like that he hadn't resolved that shift yet. But once his heart was no longer clouded with confusion over the false dichotomy of fighting for either akuma or humans-- once he properly understood he could simply do both, he finally achieved a clarity that pleased CC enough for it to consider him "worthy" again.
I don't think it's fair to say capricorn "won't stop criticizing" you. That's a bit provocative, don't you think? Deciding in advance you won't consider someone's argument isn't so constructive either. In any case, I think you and earth forge have really misunderstood what he said. I don't think you did so on purpose though, so please don't take this as some kind of accusation.Quote:
He may have attacked your ideas (also known as debate) but I didn't see anything there to take personally. Disagreement with a person is not disapproval of that person. Calling your appraisal of Allen shallow is not calling you shallow. Etc., etc. If you disagree that your appraisal is shallow then the best thing to do is to support what you say, which you began to do in this post I'm quoting, so great. Maybe it would be better in future if you want to keep things short not to omit all supports for your comments but to shorten them. Not providing any evidence/examples whatsoever implies your opinion was simply arbitrarily decided upon based on your personal feelings and not an examination of the text (either anime or manga).
Good question. Although I'm not settled on it, I've always assumed (a) he lacks a sense of place in the world, knowing what he is, and the Order is (emotionally) "safe" and familiar-- the devil he knows, and (b) the inexplicable sense of duty all exorcists except Suman Dark shared.Quote:
Also, iirc, the "True Scotsman" fallacy is when someone goes "only people who ______ can truly understand X." I don't recall capricorn doing that. *will go to check after*
I was close: It's when someone claims that a person or thing is not what the person claims (it) to be because that person or thing wouldn't have or lack a certain characteristic (e.g. a "true Scotsman" drinks scotch).
I don't think he was bullying her though and I know there are others I don't even know (this thread has drawn some attention, lol) who don't think so either.Quote:
The bartender in 210 didn't dare admit he'd seen Allen before for fear of gangster reprisal (for holding out on them), remember? I imagine he ate at establishments like those. He probably even divided meals up amongst several different ones a day, so as to (a) keep moving, and (b) keep his con games going.Quote:
There's still plenty of humour, but if you don't enjoy Tyki being upset Allen didn't notice him, Kanda drinking from Lenalee's palm to get a rise out of everyone, Kanda getting hit on by random guys on the street, Allen eavesdropping/hiding from Kanda and Johnny while dressed as a clown, Allen & Kanda's complicated friendship, or the haunting of Allen by Science Division devices even after he's escaped from the Order, then maybe it's just not the kind of humour you like.Quote:
Last edited by kannazuki; May 01, 2013 at 01:06 AM.
I'll agree with you about the Alma arc, but I don't know how Kanda got over how Allen still reminds him of Alma. How can things go back to the way they were? I can understand Kanda being grateful, but I don't really get why he isn't still reminded of Alma.
Though I did like the Science Div devices comment. Callbacks are great.
Wasnt this topic about *if anyone else dislikes Allen?/Or not?*
Why has it turned into a pissing contest?
Sorry but this is just drama for the drama. If said person dislikes Allen for reasons of her own let her be. Even so someones opinion is their opinion, read it and be done with it. Also to said girl you dont drop a series just because some guy rages at you. Its no excuse.
Back to the fundamentals, Allen was and is a changing character from the get go, its logical that his nature changes during the story. Why? Well its obvious he has a messed up youth, a near akumafication with his stepdad, and seemingly got some noah in his head. Who took up permanent residence. Another part is the guy is a lot older then he apears to be and seemingly reverted his age. So not only that but he used to be a supporter of the 14th. Another part is that of which his sole relative Mana left for him to keep going, which Road confirmed for him. This is his only hold-on to some sanity.
If thats not all he also has his Innocence attached to him, it is part of his body and affects his personality. Its not like he can put it in some drawer and forget about it for a while. It would make him a fallen if something goes wrong. So this clearly will always affect his choices down the line.
What does all this tell us about him? Well he has a lot more to worry about making his decisions in life, hes by far the most complex character in this story and dare say in manga i know of. Its not a easy character to like in the long run if your looking for your simple knight in shining armor, or your Zero (code geass reference).
Hes a bit of both and different too at the same time. He is unique. To me hes a far more likable character, he has his flaws makes heaps of dubious decisions but it makes him approachable.
As for the manga as a whole. I love it from the start. I advocate people to read it whole before judging it. Catch up to the last chapter and decide for yourself if it suits you, but be warned its not a easy read.
IBA: Where i got my knowledge and information? Well i own all volumes released 23 so far and even got the Noche artbook. And now and then reread the entire series. Love to do it before sleeping.
Last edited by ca12nag3; May 01, 2013 at 07:18 PM.
"Victim" blaming??? I was shedding light on part of the source of a misunderstanding so such a situation can be avoided in future. The funny thing about misunderstandings between two people is that no one is really to blame.Quote:
CloudStrife apparently perceived she was under attack, and in response she got defensive. capricorn too got defensive after you outright accused him of a bunch of things he very clearly didn't do. Perhaps it was not on purpose but you did make those accusations. I can empathize with both if I put myself in their shoes, but I don't think either of them should have lashed out (and make no mistake: both of them did at different points). That's why between the two of them, I see no "victim" and no "bully," but two equals who had a misunderstanding which can only be aggravated and never resolved by making one of them out to be the villain.
If it's okay with you for CloudStrife as a "victim" to lash out emotionally when she feels like she's under attack instead of seeking a better understanding, then let capricorn do the same, because intentionally or not, he was also "victimized" by you. Both of them felt "under attack" and became indignant for those respective misunderstandings but you're only empathizing with one of them and I find that unfair.
Interesting. I didn't get that sense at first, myself, but it's possible. Either way, neither truly meant the other any harm (either emotionally or physically) from the time Allen tried to shake Kanda's hand until it was announced he was the 14th. Kanda had issues to get over to be sure but we'll probably never know how consciously they affected his behaviour. Allen, on the other hand, had no idea what Kanda was thinking. He just kinda went with the flow.Quote:
If I detail it a bit, the progression of their relationship went...
I'm sure he's still reminded of Alma even now, but I mean he even sees Alma in Johnny. His childhood & recent experiences with Alma surely affect his relationships with everyone in his life to some extent.Quote:
With Allen though, there's certainly more in common. Their relationships developed in parallel. In the beginning, Alma always wanted to be Kanda's friend but wouldn't back down from a fight when Kanda rejected him. Allen was the same. Kanda and Alma fought until they suddenly just became friends. Kanda and Allen did too. Alma sacrificed himself to save Kanda before Kanda came back and ultimately "killed" him. Allen sacrificed himself (mainly to Alma's attacks) before Kanda tried to kill him. Neither friendship was static, and the one with Allen is still progressing.
Indeed. I'm not very clear on it myself. Those were just my basic impressions. *shrugs*Quote:
It is EVERYONE's job to do so, not just mine or capricorn's. I still don't see what's "jerkish" about saying someone's views were poorly supported. I think it would be really nice if we ALL took care before calling people names and accusing them of bullying or other actions of ill-intent. I don't see a need to take sides where no one is truly at fault. Things became really lopsided here and I was trying to balance them out. Please don't take my relatively detached observations (which I did take care to deliver, thank you) personally or construe some kind of ill-intent behind them just because I was trying to give you a different perspective from the one you already had. I wasn't being disrespectful and there's no need to feel spited as I'm not trying to spite you but get you to empathize with just one more person in the discussion.Quote:
At the very least, if you think someone might have said something offensive to you, please be sure s/he really meant it that way. Take their answer under consideration rather than just assuming the worst of them from the get-go and refusing to listen to anything else they say. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Just throwing out accusations and worse, assuming the absolute worst possible motives of someone, never helps a situation like this improve, either IRL or online.
Really? I've only been around 2.5 months but I've found just about everybody here really nice, either to chat or to debate with. This is the first time I've seen such a massive disagreement occur here.Quote:
Maybe, but what I cited from 210 is true, and the rest of what I suggested isn't implausible. "Dark Allen" is a pretty shrewd guy. Why assume there was no way he could have hidden when there were clearly ways he could? I can certainly understand mild disappointment at not getting concrete info on how he did it though.Quote:
Matter of opinion I guess. I think we're getting mostly light moments like I mentioned in between action sequences (Apo/Kanda; Earl/Allen). But we even had a comedic action sequence with Apo/Jasdevi, and when Kanda destroyed that horde of akuma on the street, or before that when Kanda "made sure" the Crow that were after Johnny were taken care of. (Actually, almost all of Kanda and Johnny's journey to find Allen was comedy. They were an odd pair to see travelling together, in and of themselves, lol.)Quote:
That made me smile.Quote:
Last edited by kannazuki; May 01, 2013 at 08:21 PM.
I 100% get the complaints on Allen and they're pretty valid, but my fujoshi tinted glasses and Stockholm syndrome for shounen hero badassery keeps me from joining the party. Sometimes I even have "why can't I quit you!" pouty fests about it. I can't bring myself to dislike Allen to my fullest potential so instead I focus on the positives and enjoy Allen for what he is.
Just thought it would be fun to toss in an update of my opinion in here to lighten up the mood.