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Thread: Can the Elder be beaten?

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BASED Shinigami's Avatar
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    Can the Elder be beaten?

    Idk I've been thinking about this for awhile now. The Elder is immortal in terms of his martial arts abilities and physical attributes. Every time we see him in action its absolutely incredible. I decided a long time ago that he is not human and he can't be compared to the other master class fighters, so that brings up the topic question.

    CAN HE BE BEATEN?
    if so give reason
    if not still give reason
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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I don't think he is so overwhelmingly strong that other super class master fighters cannot give him a run for his money. The way you are describing him he should have one shoted appachai in their first encounter yet that was not the case at all. I do believe he would win against pretty much anyone we have seen but he would not get out of the fight unharmed (by this I mean ryozampaku or one shadow nine fists class fighters).

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    If Saiga has been training diligently then yes I believe the One Shadow could beat his father. Plus Kenichi will be able to beat the Elder around age 20 something. Why? Because the Elder is getting older and a bit weaker each day while Kenichi is growing into his prime.

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonlink310 View Post
    If Saiga has been training diligently then yes I believe the One Shadow could beat his father. Plus Kenichi will be able to beat the Elder around age 20 something. Why? Because the Elder is getting older and a bit weaker each day while Kenichi is growing into his prime.
    Kenichi won't be able to defeat the Elder no time soon not even in his lifetime...yes it is true the Elder is growing weaker as he ages and kenichi is progressing but he hasn't come close to reaching his prime yet he still has a lot to learn before he reaches master-class status plus he's not a prodigy like Shigure where as she's like 22 yrs old and she's already one of the top master class weapon users in the world. It's more likely when he turns twenty he will probably be strong enough to defeat a lower level master class fighter but as for the invincible superman...no.

    I don't think the One shadow can defeat the Elder even though he probably knows all of his techniques because in all likely-hood he was trained by him seeing as he's the Elder son. However, I do get the impression that the One shadow can give the Elder a tougher fight than any other master class fighters we've seen though.

    @kkck he could probably be beaten if multiple masters( at a ryozanpaku or nine fist level) fought him simultaneously.
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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Kenichi is nowhere near defeating the elder. He is so overwhelmingly far away it does not even come close to being funny. Kenichi is still getting the crap beaten out of her by the elder using 0.002 combination technique (and perhaps the 0.001 percent technique). The worst kind of master fodder would give the fodder treatment to kenichi at the moment, even fortuna would have an easy time against him. The elder got to where he is after decades of training, no way kenichi is going to reach that level in half a decade. remember tanaka? He was 20 years old and he still had yet to reach master class, even if he was close. That means that even fortuna was in fact stronger than the guy (fodder master class is better than high level expert). At best kenichi will reach master class by his 20s and perhaps the level of his masters by 25 or later (we saw sakaki at that age and we know he has grown stronger since then). That said, the manga is called "history's strongest disciple kenichi" meaning that once kenichi definitely leaves the disciple class the manga will end.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Kenichi is nowhere near defeating the elder. He is so overwhelmingly far away it does not even come close to being funny. Kenichi is still getting the crap beaten out of her by the elder using 0.002 combination technique (and perhaps the 0.001 percent technique). The worst kind of master fodder would give the fodder treatment to kenichi at the moment, even fortuna would have an easy time against him. The elder got to where he is after decades of training, no way kenichi is going to reach that level in half a decade. remember tanaka? He was 20 years old and he still had yet to reach master class, even if he was close. That means that even fortuna was in fact stronger than the guy (fodder master class is better than high level expert). At best kenichi will reach master class by his 20s and perhaps the level of his masters by 25 or later (we saw sakaki at that age and we know he has grown stronger since then). That said, the manga is called "history's strongest disciple kenichi" meaning that once kenichi definitely leaves the disciple class the manga will end.

    Pst Yeah right like Fortuna could actually beat Tanaka. Tanaka is simply at the expert level because he hasn't found it within himself to break the expert level yet.

    A bunch of half dead teens beat Fortuna and Natsu himself said Fortuna is master class trash. I bet Fortuna might win against Kenichi but he will be injured in the process. I have faith in Kenichi, its not like stronger enemies can't be beaten by the weaker opponent.

    Worst comes to worst, Kenichi can just hold Chou Giga hostage and force the Elder to give up. lol

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Fortuna is a proper master, he would beat the shit out of tanaka. Since tanaka is actually close to actual master level he should be capable of putting up a good fight but winning is unlikely. The manga does have that bit about the stronger one not being necessarily the one who wins however it does not mean the stronger one was not in fact the stronger one. That particular notion accounts for other purely circumstantial things (the place the fight takes place at, perhaps how rested a person is, mood, pure luck and many other factors) so they cannot be taken into account in a proper discussion. If we do that we might as well argue that kenichi could defeat his masters when they are sleeping by hacking them with a hacksaw. Kenichi injure fortuna? Kenichi is nowhere near master class at the time being. Fortuna was at the lowest level of master class but a master class is still a master class. Heck, even with tanaka neither rachel or stanley could keep up with his speed, how in the world would kenichi put a scratch on a master class fighter on his own?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Fortuna is a proper master, he would beat the shit out of tanaka. Since tanaka is actually close to actual master level he should be capable of putting up a good fight but winning is unlikely. The manga does have that bit about the stronger one not being necessarily the one who wins however it does not mean the stronger one was not in fact the stronger one. That particular notion accounts for other purely circumstantial things (the place the fight takes place at, perhaps how rested a person is, mood, pure luck and many other factors) so they cannot be taken into account in a proper discussion. If we do that we might as well argue that kenichi could defeat his masters when they are sleeping by hacking them with a hacksaw. Kenichi injure fortuna? Kenichi is nowhere near master class at the time being. Fortuna was at the lowest level of master class but a master class is still a master class. Heck, even with tanaka neither rachel or stanley could keep up with his speed, how in the world would kenichi put a scratch on a master class fighter on his own?
    All your examples are of an earlier time where Kenichi was weaker. Kenichi is ABLE TO SEE SUPER MASTERS MOVE AND FIGHT! That coming a long way from seeing displaced air or blurs.

    Also what are you on? Fortuna sucked balls as a master. Tanaka could take out all the disciples that Fortuna fought before with ease. Remember Ishida the weapon master Sakaki fought in that one arc, now he might give Tanaka a challenge. But Fortuna was a joke compared to real masters.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Grasping sakaki's and akira's fight is something inherently and completely different from being able to fight with a master class.

    The question is what are YOU on? A clear and obvious distinction was made between tanaka and fortuna. Tanaka was an expert CLOSE to master class. Fortuna is at the lowest level of master class. We know the heirarchy in terms of skill goes like this:

    1.- Master
    2.-Expert
    3.-Disciple

    The has been made clear and we know for a fact that a master is stronger than an expert and an expert is stronger than a disciple. Where in the world do you get the idea that a high level expert is superior to a low level master? Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. The issue here is that you dislike fortuna and in turn like tanaka.

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I believe the Elder can be defeated. I don't think any master alone could defeat the Elder because he's simply too strong but if multiple master class fighters team up on him. There is a chance even at full power the Elder could be defeated. They would have to be very strong at an ryozanpaku or nine fist level because we already know that the Elder once fought like 500 master class fighters(INSANE) lol and beat them all.

    The only way i can see one master class fighter defeating the Elder is if he drops his guard during the fight and takes a very fatal blow like James Shiba did against the One Shadow although he is still living. Then again the chances of the Elder dropping his guard during a fight are very unlikely think about it the ONLY time we've ever seen the Elder get hit in a fight was against Kenichi and Miu in the D&D tournament and he was SEVERLY holding back his power.

    @kkck yea i completely agree with you even if Fortuna is a garbage master class its still MASTER CLASS all the same and tanaka is in the expert class meaning he is below Fortuna and he would most likely get beaten by him.
    Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 11, 2011 at 10:35 PM.
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Grasping sakaki's and akira's fight is something inherently and completely different from being able to fight with a master class.

    The question is what are YOU on? A clear and obvious distinction was made between tanaka and fortuna. Tanaka was an expert CLOSE to master class. Fortuna is at the lowest level of master class. We know the heirarchy in terms of skill goes like this:

    1.- Master
    2.-Expert
    3.-Disciple

    The has been made clear and we know for a fact that a master is stronger than an expert and an expert is stronger than a disciple. Where in the world do you get the idea that a high level expert is superior to a low level master? Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. The issue here is that you dislike fortuna and in turn like tanaka.
    Then explain how 6 to 7 Disciple class or lower (aka Ukita) beat Fortuna. Because to me that seems kinda fishy based on your graph where everyone is 2 levels below Fortuna. Also some of them were injured like Takeda.

    I seriously can't believe you think Fortuna is strong. I don't dislike the guy but he was weak as hell.

    I never said Kenichi could fight master class fighters right now.

    You put too much emphasis on class. That one delinquent guy that ran away from Kenichi when he won, that was a case where Kenichi was stronger yet lost. Heck Shou was loads stronger than Kenichi but Kenichi won in the end.

    The Elder may be powerful now, but age is catching up to him. I just hope Kenichi becomes a master before Gramps dies.

  13. #12
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    ^Fortuna was defeated in a team fight and lets not forget they had nijima telling them what was the best course of action which coming from nijima is not small thing.

    Fortuna being strong is something that has been taken into context considering the differences and ranges there are within categories. Fortuna was weak AMONG MASTERS. Fortuna as a master is so weak that OSNF or ryozampaku would one shot people who would one shot fortuna. Still, fortuna is in fact a master and masters are in fact stronger than expert class fighters. Tanaka is admittedly NOT a master class, in that regard he is weaker than garbage master class fighters.

    The delinquent scenario is absurd. Kenichi got overconfident and left himself get caught off guard. Can takana pull that off against a master? Of course, perhaps even kenichi can kill the elder if he shoves a grenade down his throat in his sleep. The manga has said that it is not necessarily the stronger one who wins but that does not mean the stronger is not in fact stronger. The scenarios where a significantly weaker guy would win against a stronger one are not relevant in any reasonable discussion as no reasonable prediction can be made about them. Face it, you simply don't like fortuna lol.

  14. #13
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    ^Fortuna was defeated in a team fight and lets not forget they had nijima telling them what was the best course of action which coming from nijima is not small thing.

    Fortuna being strong is something that has been taken into context considering the differences and ranges there are within categories. Fortuna was weak AMONG MASTERS. Fortuna as a master is so weak that OSNF or ryozampaku would one shot people who would one shot fortuna. Still, fortuna is in fact a master and masters are in fact stronger than expert class fighters. Tanaka is admittedly NOT a master class, in that regard he is weaker than garbage master class fighters.

    The delinquent scenario is absurd. Kenichi got overconfident and left himself get caught off guard. Can takana pull that off against a master? Of course, perhaps even kenichi can kill the elder if he shoves a grenade down his throat in his sleep. The manga has said that it is not necessarily the stronger one who wins but that does not mean the stronger is not in fact stronger. The scenarios where a significantly weaker guy would win against a stronger one are not relevant in any reasonable discussion as no reasonable prediction can be made about them. Face it, you simply don't like fortuna lol.
    You are being blind to the fact that master class fighters can be beaten by lower class fighters. You give too much credit to the people who state that they are master class.

    Fortuna would lose against Tanaka and I would bet you an immense amount of money for that bet. Think about something carefully, what is Tanaka's goal? To beat/kill Kensai of the OSNF, he has gone past Expert level already. He just hasn't been acknowledged as a master yet. We will simple have to disagree on who would win in Fortuna vs Tanaka.

    But anyways this thread is about whether or not the Elder can be beaten, and I say HELL YEAH!

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I think Tanaka would have a chance against a master on Fortuna's level because although Fortuna is an all around master, I think Tanaka has the edge in pure technique. If Fortuna can be defeated by a disciple with a high class technique, then an advanced level expert with several high level techniques (including kozue nukite) could definitely defeat him if he gets an opening. Shinpaku created that opening through combining their strength. I think an expert of Tanaka's level could create his own opening during a prolonged fight, and I don't think Fortuna has any type of sunday punch or kill move that could finish someone of Tanaka's level.

    As far as the Elder is concerned, I think anyone can be beat if the circumstances are right. Someone like One Shadow, who may know a weakness his father has, could exploit that. He's outclassed other super masters like Apachai but not to the point where it was a complete annihilation, and he's had a tough fight against Jenazad. I'd wager he'd have an even tougher one against Kushinada and even more so against Saiga. So, my theory is that no matter how godly he may look in his day to day feats, in a one on one fight, he's only slightly stronger than the best super masters(masters like, Saiga, Kushinada, Jenazad, and possibly Akisame) and therefore, the right opponent could possibly find a way to win.
    Last edited by kenichi23; November 12, 2011 at 11:03 PM.

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Still, we get back to any scenario where tanaka would beat fortuna under scenarios which cannot or should not be accounted for in a reasonable discussion as for the most part they are purely circumstantial scenarios that imply fortuna has some inherent disadvantage or he plainly lowers his guard. Of course if such an scenario happens tanaka would win however it does not mean he would have been stronger. I do have my doubts about tanaka having an edge in technique, you can't become a master without having that. If anything being a master would imply more skill on fortuna's part. We just did not see the guy using techniques.

    The situations where the elder is beaten are the same. You need either luck or for him to plainly drop his guard. I still do not think he is at a place where he would win easily against the stronger OSNF or ryozampaku members though.

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