Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Suì-Fēng

[freshseth83]

Not even Shunsui stands much of a chance if he wins the next round against Yoruichi, and he's one of my top 3 favorites. If it were him and Juushiro, I'd say they might be able to tie him, but one on one it's doubtful unless he can hide in the shadows forever, cus once he comes out Yama would say 'gotcha' or something along those lines. Soi-Fon doesn't stand a chance either. No one does. Not even Aizen. I think once he felt the reiatsu of KS, he could tell what was an illusion. Well, he couldn't mistake Aizen's reiatsu for that of an illusion.

[Henry J. Gloval]

Yama should be banned from the tournament along with Aizen... He is undisputed in the manga, why should this be any different. Imho, the tournament would be much more interesting.

Just look at his fight thread. "Was he the one who founded G13? Soifon sucks, CC stomps!"
The man raped so many fighters in this forum, that he caused the genre shift to Hentai...

[Lunatic Scream]

Ok. To spice up the discussion:

No armed Yama vs. full power Soifon. GO!

[ShootToKill]

Single Bone - Soifon's probably no faster than WW and a hell of a lot less tough, so that's all it would take imo

edit: Oh you said no armed, not unarmed, in that case Soifon might be able to pull it off. Haven't seen Yama's kicking skills.

[Omiem]

Yeah, Soifon might be able to take that scenario. Especially since losing an arm has been implied to drastically decrease a user's Reiatsu. She'll definitely need her clones to do so however.

[Takahashi]

Single Bone - Soifon's probably no faster than WW and a hell of a lot less tough, so that's all it would take imo

edit: Oh you said no armed, not unarmed, in that case Soifon might be able to pull it off. Haven't seen Yama's kicking skills.

Considering a person's feet are naturally many times stronger than their arms, I think Soi Fon (or anyone) would be obliterated on the first kick

Hope she's fast enough to dodge 'em, if not, toast.

[ShootToKill]

Yeah, I really meant would they be fast enough, I think we all know they'd be powerful enough I wonder whether he names them... perhaps it's just Mashiro - she seems to be the only person who kicks anyway. Oh, I saw Nel kick Nnoitra's weapon once or twice in the anime while they were fighting - don't know if she did in the manga. Suffice to say, kicking isn't the most popular form of combat on Bleach

[Jackk]

Why are you replying to me?

Because you made a post in reply to mine?

I didn't state anything against you.

Yes, you did.

I said this:

Considering that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto, I seriously doubt that Yama was the one who choose the first captains for each division....

And then you replied with this:

That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that.

EDIT- in the bleach book of souls, it says the Gotei 13 was founded by Yama. And in chapter 394, it states that he's been the captain commander for the last 1000years at least. http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch394-06.png

I said the databook says he founded the gotei 13, then I said there was no proof that there was 13 or such odd number captain commanders before him.

And that was not what I was referring to. I never stated how many captain commanders there were before Yama, just that there were more before him. Yama said that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the gotei 13's commander via oral tradition--which is what I was referring to.

I didn't say he was the first. I said the error in the translation was that he said he was the 13th captain commander.

But I said this:

Considering that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto, I seriously doubt that Yama was the one who choose the first captains for each division....

And then you said this:

That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that.

As Buzz Killington pointed out, you pretty much implied there was no proof there were Captain Commanders before Yamamoto, so we provided evidence to the contrary.

Also, the error in the translation of the page that you were referring to was not that he said he was the 13th captain commander. The mistranslation actually said that Yama was the 30th Captain Commander of the Gotei 13 http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...07-page-7.html ...And the accurate translation simply states that he has held the position of Captain Commander of the Gotei 13 for 1000 years. http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch394-06.png Just saying. In any case that is really irrelevant because that's not the chapter that I was referring to when I said that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto.

What the correct translation was stating, was that he is the captain commander of the gotei 13. the link shows you that.

I knew that. Like I said, that was not what I was referring to, thus I replied back to tell you that I was referring to Yama saying that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the gotei 13's commander via oral tradition--which clearly indicates that there were more captain commanders before Yama. I never said how many because we don't know that much at this point.

And what are you talking about with Aizen?

That he actually found a document in Soul Society's library, which had the process for making the Royal key.

I just said the same damn thing and you wanna rehash it like you're correct and I was wrong. You tend to do that alot. This is why I don't reply to your comments usually. You always wanna make it seem like you were right and someone else was wrong.

No. Those are ridiculous accusations. And there's no need for you to overreact.

This is what I said- Then there's no book on how to make the royal key, but Aizen found out how to by a reference from when the key was made, which is when? You see I asked a question of WHEN? As in WHEN was the royal key made, from what time period. How is that statement not the same thing you just said?

Well what you stated was that there is no book on how to make the royal key. But what we were told by Yamamoto was that there was no book detailing the location of the Royal key;however, there was a document--in Soul Society's library--on how to make the Royal key, which is what Aizen found.

Also, we really don't know when exactly the original Royal Key was made. But considering that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the gotei 13's commander via oral tradition, I think it's pretty safe to say that it was made before Yama was even the commander; it is implied that the location of the key was passed to him though oral tradition by the previous commander. Meaning a very long time ago.

I said my theory was that he fouded the Gotei 13, I never said he was the first captain commander.

Ok. But I don't think it makes much sense for him to have founded the Gotei 13 and not be the first captain commander. And as it was already shown, there is evidence in the manga that there were more captain commanders before him....

What is your reply about? To prove what? That Jacck knows everything whatever freshseth says is wrong? Cus that's all I see from you.

No. Definitely not. You're imagining things, and there is no need for you to get so defensive.

I don't have a link currently to the book of souls, but it was mentioned that the captain commander was the founder of the gotei 13. You're stating that either it was a translation error or he went back on what he previously stated... this is what I said The only thing that can explain that is Kubo messed up or the gotei 13 was something before Yama. Why would it say Yama founded the gotei 13 and the academy then say "passed through generations of the commander of the Gotei 13? It's weird to say the least. How does that warrant a reply from you when I just said the same thing you did?

I replied because you replied to my comment basically saying that there was no proof of there being more captain commanders. You thought that I was referring to the mistranslation of chapter 394 where it was incorrectly stated that Yama was the 30th captain commander, and in reality the correct translation simply says that he has held the position of captain commander for 1000 years. But, again, I was not referring to the mistranslated page of that particular chapter.

What I was referring to was chapter 223; the chapter in which Yama said that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the gotei 13's commander via oral tradition.

I get it. If Jacck doesn't say it, it's not correct.

No, you don't get it. I'm not picking on you; I've told you this before. Please stop imagining things.

I found it on Bleach wikia- and before you go off and say 'it's a fan modified site' just look at the link- it's from the databook itself which states- First Company Captain Genryusai Shigenkuni Yamamoto is the founder and Captain-General of the Thirteen Companies http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/im..._of_souls_.png

I'm not trying to brag, but I knew what I read. I had this book a long time ago, back in 2007 I think. Bought it from the book store, it's lost now but I knew what I read.

Well thanks for the link. But there is still a problem: we're back to there being pretty much a direct contradiction to that in the manga.

This: http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...-vol25-178.png

Now, I realize that you were saying that Yama could have been the founder of the Gotei 13 without being the first Captain commander. But like I said earlier, that doesn't really make much sense. I will explain further by addressing something that you said earlier, which I somehow forgot to reply to before.

I'm referring to the following:

Currently there's little to go by to say that there was an organized squad of 13 courts before Yama. There could have been, but was it the 'gotei 13' or was it just a group of high ranking shinigami headed by one person- the captain commander?

You might have been able to explain things by saying that the previous commanders had a different organization, and that Yama later founded the Gotei 13. But here's the problem:

Yama did not say that the location of the royal key is passed by through successive generations of Captain commanders.

Yama actually said that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the Gotei 13's commander via oral tradition. Yamamoto is referring to the "Gotei 13" captain commanders. See, the manga actually indicates that there were more Gotei 13 captain Commanders before Yama. Therefore, Yamamoto being the founder of the Gotei 13 doesn't really make much sense.

[freshseth83]

So the story is flawed, like i stated in my first post.

But you decided to make a long drawn out conversation about the same thing I just said? Ok... and? I never said you were 'picking' on me either. I said you always have to reply to make it seem like the posts you put up are correct, and no one elses interpretation of the manga is correct. That's you being a know it all there, Jacck.

I didn't say there's NO PROOF OF THERE BEING MORE CAPTAIN COMMANDER'S. I said there's no proof of that- being that Yama was the 13th CC! Big difference there.

I said this- Then there's no book on how to make the royal key, but Aizen found out how to by a reference from when the key was made, which is when? and you basically repeated what I said by saying this- But what we were told by Yamamoto was that there was no book detailing the location of the Royal key;however, there was a document--in Soul Society's library--on how to make the Royal key, which is what Aizen found. lol- its the same shit. I guess you felt the need to reiterate the point I just made? That's why I said, if it aint Jacck saying it, it aint right.

Here's you taking things too literally; my statement- That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that. Error that he was 13th CC- no proof of him being the 13th CC. This is what you say to that; As Buzz Killington pointed out, you pretty much implied there was no proof there were Captain Commanders before Yamamoto, so we provided evidence to the contrary.

Also, the error in the translation of the page that you were referring to was not that he said he was the 13th captain commander. The mistranslation actually said that Yama was the 30th Captain Commander of the Gotei 13 http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...07-page-7.html ...And the accurate translation simply states that he has held the position of Captain Commander of the Gotei 13 for 1000 years. http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch394-06.png Just saying. In any case that is really irrelevant because that's not the chapter that I was referring to when I said that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto. Not every translation is the same- some translations said 13th Captain Commander, some said 30th. They were both wrong. Does it matter which one I chose to specify? No. You, on the other hand want to make it seem like whatever I just posted was factually incorrect. How is that so when every translation that said there was a previous amount of CC's was incorrect?

You say this and that about how I'm taking offense to your posts. That's wrong. What's really happening is you're looking so far into my posts, that you're restating things I just generally said, as something far more specific when it's not even needed. It's you trying to prove me wrong when there's nothing to prove. Why even go that far? It's useless.

[Castriota]

i'll take yamamoto with a sneeze. yes soifon is strong, she is a captain after all, but she can't match up with yamamoto. it took ukitake and shunsui just to hold yamamoto back, with both of them being released. if barragan can make soifon's bankai blow up away from him, i doubt it'll take much for yamamoto to do the same thing with his flames.

[AlB]

Considering a person's feet are naturally many times stronger than their arms, I think Soi Fon (or anyone) would be obliterated on the first kick

Hope she's fast enough to dodge 'em, if not, toast.

"Yammmmmmmmaaaaaamoto Super Kiiiick"

[Jackk]

So the story is flawed, like i stated in my first post.

That's not what you stated in your first post. Don't lie.

This is what you stated in your first post in reply to what I said:

That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that.

But you decided to make a long drawn out conversation about the same thing I just said? Ok... and? I never said you were 'picking' on me either. I said you always have to reply to make it seem like the posts you put up are correct, and no one elses interpretation of the manga is correct. That's you being a know it all there, Jacck.

Ridiculous accusations. You should probably stop this.

I didn't say there's NO PROOF OF THERE BEING MORE CAPTAIN COMMANDER'S. I said there's no proof of that- being that Yama was the 13th CC! Big difference there.

The hell? ...Tell me, when in my post did I ever claim that Yamamoto was the 13th Captain Commander? That's right, I never said that.

I already told you that what I was referring to was this: http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...-vol25-178.png

I never said how many captain commanders there were before Yama, nor that Yama was the 13th or the 30th captain commander. I just said there were more captain commanders before Yama. And I based it on the fact that Yama stated that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the Gotei 13's Captain Commanders via oral tradition. You know, it's hard to pass down something like the location of an all powerful key to the Royal realm without more than one Captain commander...

What I said initially was this:

Considering that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto, I seriously doubt that Yama was the one who choose the first captains for each division....

And then you replied with this:

That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that.

But I didn't state in my post anything about "Such and such number Captain commander."

I simply stated that there were more captain commanders before Yama. Yet you ended your reply with "so there's no proof of that." And that's you basically saying that there was no proof of there being more captain commanders before Yamamoto because you were replying to my comment. How can you deny that?

I said this- Then there's no book on how to make the royal key, but Aizen found out how to by a reference from when the key was made, which is when? and you basically repeated what I said by saying this- But what we were told by Yamamoto was that there was no book detailing the location of the Royal key;however, there was a document--in Soul Society's library--on how to make the Royal key, which is what Aizen found. lol- its the same shit. I guess you felt the need to reiterate the point I just made? That's why I said, if it aint Jacck saying it, it aint right.

No. We didn't say the same thing. Yama did not say that there's no book on how to make the royal key. Yama said that there's no book detailing the location of the Royal Key. What did you not understand from that?

Here's you taking things too literally; my statement- That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that. Error that he was 13th CC- no proof of him being the 13th CC.

No. Don't try to change things. See, what you're claiming now makes no sense. Why? Because you replied to my comment and my comment said nothing about Yamamoto being the 13th CC. What I stated was simply that there were more before him.

No. You, on the other hand want to make it seem like whatever I just posted was factually incorrect. How is that so when every translation that said there was a previous amount of CC's was incorrect?

Missing the point.

And I already told you that I was never referring to the mistranslated page of chapter 394 to begin with when I stated that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto.

You say this and that about how I'm taking offense to your posts. That's wrong.

Really? Well your attitude gave me the impression that you were taking offense even though I wasn't picking on you nor trying to offend you. I was merely replying to clarify what I was referring to when I first stated that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto. You obviously had no clue what I was referring to because you replied to me saying that Yamamoto being the 13th captain commander was a mistranslation. But again, I was NOT referring to that.

What's really happening is you're looking so far into my posts, that you're restating things I just generally said, as something far more specific when it's not even needed. It's you trying to prove me wrong when there's nothing to prove. Why even go that far? It's useless.

No. This is you imagining things and making ridiculous accusations; you should stop. I only made a comment about there being more captain commanders before Yamamoto and then you replied to that thinking that I was referring to the mistranslated page in chapter 394, and told me that there was no proof of what I was saying since your comment was in reply to mine.

I posted back to clarify that I was not referring to that mistranslated page. You must have mistakenly thought that I was. But, again, I was not referring to the mistranslated page in chapter 394. I was referring to chapter 223 where Yama stated that the location of the Royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the Gote 13's captain commander.

[Henry J. Gloval]

It just occured to me, is Yama fighting with only one arm, since he sacrificed it in that big bad Hado no 96: Ito Kaso?
If so, Soifon could probably... Crack a joke on Yama.
SF:"Hey, gramps! Where did you get those cheap sandals? At a SECOND HAND shop?:-P"
YSG:"Very funny, brat. You think its cool to make fun of the disabled?! Since I dont have an arm, I might as well take YOURS!;->"
Announcer:"PWNED!":-O

[Jackk]

It just occured to me, is Yama fighting with only one arm, since he sacrificed it in that big bad Hado no 96: Ito Kaso?

Nah. This was brought to the attention of the mods a while ago, but they decided that Yama would have both arms in this tournament.

[freshseth83]

You say drop it but you bring it up? here you go again, with your literal interpretations of someone's comment. "your first comment was this" I didn't say my first comment in this thread. If that were the case you'll have to go back further than that. I'm talking about my first reply to the subject of what # CC Yama is. Go back and read it again though, maybe you'll find it.

your attitude gave me the impression that you were taking offense even though I wasn't picking on you nor trying to offend you. I was merely replying to clarify what I was referring to when I first stated that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto. I was stating the same thing. That there was a translation error about there being 13 or 30 cc's before Yama. I never said there was no cc before him. I said that in the databook it says he founded the gotei 13- which was true.

This is you imagining things and making ridiculous accusations; you should stop. I only made a comment about there being more captain commanders before Yamamoto and then you replied to that thinking that I was referring to the mistranslated page in chapter 394, and told me that there was no proof of what I was saying since your comment was in reply to mine.
I don't imagine what was clearly posted. You were trying to prove my comment wrong. But in the same post, you basically stated the same thing I did. Just because you read my comment and took it out of context, you felt the need to reply with your usual story book long post, about how you were right. How is that imagining things?

Missing the point.

And I already told you that I was never referring to the mistranslated page of chapter 394 to begin with when I stated that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto. Missing what point? You replied to my comment stating I was wrong. You said so yourself. How am I missing the point. I made a point and then you try to correct me with a whole different point, but the original statement already covered that basis. Your misjudgment of the wording caused you to reply to me obviously.

No. Don't try to change things. See, what you're claiming now makes no sense. Why? Because you replied to my comment and my comment said nothing about Yamamoto being the 13th CC. What I stated was simply that there were more before him. You're just blind aren't you? I didn't reply to you. I stated there was a translation error about Yama being such and such # captain commander, so there's no proof of THAT- him being the such and such # captain commander! Duh? lol- you need to learn the structures of statements. When I make a statement, directly after a fact, I'm talking about that specific fact. Not some general point you throw out there! I'm not talking about what YOU said, because I didn't reply to what YOU said. If I was, I would have quoted your post. Take a second, breathe, go back and look for yourself.

No. We didn't say the same thing. Yama did not say that there's no book on how to make the royal key. Yama said that there's no book detailing the location of the Royal Key. What did you not understand from that? You're pulling shit out your ass here- there's no difference besides the wording I used. You do this all the time and say your comment was correct because you use more specific wording? haha, great- just like I said- if it aint Jacck stating it, it aint correct. Thanks for proving my point, bud.

You said Considering that there were more captain commanders before Yamamoto, I seriously doubt that Yama was the one who choose the first captains for each division I said IN THE DATABOOK- YAMA FOUNDED THE GOTEI 13 then you say something else that's on a whole different subject, failed to even realize that I was talking about the databook, and then proceed to quote me saying I didn't state in my post anything about "Such and such number Captain commander."

I simply stated that there were more captain commanders before Yama. Yet you ended your reply with "so there's no proof of that." And that's you basically saying that there was no proof of there being more captain commanders before Yamamoto because you were replying to my comment. How can you deny that?
It's funny, you know why? Because I didn't quote you, so how do you know I was replying to you? Maybe you're the one imagining things like you accuse me of. You should go back and re-read like I said.

Tell me, when in my post did I ever claim that Yamamoto was the 13th Captain Commander? That's right, I never said that. Didn't say you did state that. There you go again. Using words out of context. I was stating what I SAID, not what Jacck said. Don't try and twist words around. We can go and do this all day. I got nothing better to do but put your mistakes on blast.

I never said how many captain commanders there were before Yama, nor that Yama was the 13th or the 30th captain commander. I just said there were more captain commanders before Yama. And I based it on the fact that Yama stated that the location of the royal key is passed by only through successive generations of the Gotei 13's Captain Commanders via oral tradition. You know, it's hard to pass down something like the location of an all powerful key to the Royal realm without more than one Captain commander That whole statement was based off an assumption of you misreading my comment. My orginial statement was- That was an error that said he was the such and such number captain commander. So there's no proof of that. No proof of THAT- THAT being he was the 'such and such' captain commander. Nowhere am I stating there's no captain commanders. Again, Jacck- your whole comment was based off something you read out of context. But that's what I've come to expect of you.

---

Let me refer you to this post there, Jacck- http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...2&postcount=85 There's my first reply to you. Grow up, learn to read things for what they are, don't say I am replying to you when I'm not, don't use my words out of context. Yama founded the Gotei 13, the databook said it- that was the statement. If you can't figure that out I'm sorry. No need for you to get all mad because you THOUGHT i was replying to you. This is what the whole argument was based off of.