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Thread: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

  1. #1846
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Leonsagara's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    On the other hand, maybe Itachi was concerned that fighting Jiraiya, even if he could win, would weaken him enough that Kisame could kill him and eliminate the threat to Akatsuki. Don't forget that Kisame's ultimate loyalties always were with Madara and that he was probably partnered with Itachi to keep an eye on him.

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  3. #1847
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    Well, he was going to let Naruto be shaved by Kisame. He was also going to sacrifice Asuma and Kurenai. He told Sasuke to murder his best friend to receive MS, etc.
    Which is why I say, the character of Itachi was retconned in part 2. Lulz.

    Possible reasons why Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya.

    1. He's a sannin and therefore must not be underestimated even taking into consideration the strength of Itachi and Kisame. Itachi wants to be careful. He doesn't know what Jiraiya could dish out. Him performing Amaterasu shows how highly he respects the sannin's capability to have used a high-level, and rather, dangerous justu himself to guarantee their escape.

    2. In the off chance that they collide, this might attract attention and reinforcements might arrive from Konoha. Take into account that Gai arrived shortly after Itachi and Kisame left. Itachi didn't want to attract that much attention considering Akatsuki was still not yet out in the open.

    3. Itachi just used 2 MS techniques that day on top of the jutsus he used against Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma which may have been causing much strain on him. He's not in tip-top shape.

    4. With Itachi as double-agent, I'm really am perplexed at how he acts as a watcher inside Akatsuki and still go with the flow regarding the aims and missions of the group.

    5. His personal goal is still shrouded in mystery as far as I'm concerned despite the revelations we received in part 2. Part of which includes his goals for sasuke.

    6. He didn't want to risk a fight against Jiraiya especially since Itachi himself confirmed that Sasuke was still weak that time. This is in line with his goals for both him and his brother and he didn't want to jeopardize. It seems also that he left, in order to leave a clear message to his brother to not let go of the goal to be an avenger. Keeping in mind the massacre that he committed yet leaving Sasuke alive, he didn't want to cause unnecessary complications or setbacks on Sasuke's chances of catching up and ultimately defeating him.

    Having said that, after what has been shown in part 2, Jiraiya would lose to Itachi. IMO. However, this wouldn't be as easy as some others put it. Jiraiya is no slouch himself so I think this fight would be as pretty decent as when he took on the three bodies of pain. (Note: I said three bodies, not six) Itachi may not just be able to overwhelm him that easily. Jiraiya is still a tough contender such that, if Itachi, for just a moment, becomes too confident, he would exploit any chances no matter how slim in order to emerge victorious.

  4. #1848
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Nicholas.Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    If memory serves me right, Itachi and Jiraiya were tied for strongest character in the last databook with equal stats of 35.5...
    Last edited by Nicholas.Sama; July 03, 2011 at 08:34 PM.

  5. #1849
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sevenheadedmirror's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaHeroic1 View Post
    So words mean more then action. We've seen Jiraiya go all out against pain, Kisame against Bee, and a sick Itachi hold back against Sasuke. This should be all the proof to make a judgement on certain outcomes and situations. Theirs no shame in Jiraiya losing to Itachi and Kisame as it doesn't make him look weak. A almost perfect percentage of ninja would lose to this duo.
    There's three problems with this logic. Situations weren't equal, meaning Kisame vs Bee had the Jinchuuriky holding back so he wouldn't hurt his friends, Itachi was facing a non-MS Sasuke, Pein used all six bodies at a moment against Jiraya for three were beaten and admitted his old teacher may have defeated him if he had known earlier of his secret... out of the three Jiraya had the most troubling situation. Second the strength of the opponent: you are placing Sasuke, furthermore, as stated above, a non-MS Sasuke as equal to Pein. Third, it is subjective and disregarding. Clearly to us (jdw, me, people who argument in favour of Jiraya) Jiraya would have won according to action.

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi could have had many reasons for what he did and didn't do...
    Could, may, it's not so far fetched... hypothetical interpretations on a character holding back is contradictory to your first argument, that prefers facts over character quotes but then somehow you prefer your own deductions to those quotes.
    Last edited by Sevenheadedmirror; July 03, 2011 at 08:05 PM.
    To in infer something and pose it as implied in the source is to justify something.
    The justification that an arc or a story sucks because the author is as tired as us from it can't apply since it's the author's fault it sucks to begin with.

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  7. #1850
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Shinomori Aoshi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    I'm tired of this Itachi claiming he can't beat Jiraiya... Actual japanese text:

    K:あなたなら どうにかこうにかやれる相手でもわたしじゃあわかりませんよ。。。 次元が違う

    I:ああ。。。 やり合えば二人共殺されるか
    良くて相打ちというところ

    。。。たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう

    K:ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが。。。 お守りが あの〝伝説の三人〟とは

    彼が相手では〝木の葉のうちは一族〟も 〝霧の忍刀七人衆〟の名も かすんでしまう

    I:ああ。。。 しかし。。。

    どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ。。。

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-144/10/

    Kisame's last words at least to me better translate as "That guy has a name (reputation) that exceeds both that of the "Uchiha clan" and the "Seven Swordsmen of the Mist" and NOT "That guy is a match for me and you".

    In conclusion, neither Itachi nor Kisame ever said that any one of them could not beat Jiraiya; actually Kisame fleeing with his partner a few moments later stated that there was no point in retreating.

    EDIT: Itachi first words also seem to be referring to their previous fight with the Konoha jonin (Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai, Guy) as I translate them as:
    "Yes... If we fought we would've probably both died. Or at best taken each other out (the two of them with the Konoha guys). Even if they didn't increase their numbers (? not sure about this one)"
    Last edited by Shinomori Aoshi; July 03, 2011 at 08:29 PM.

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  9. #1851
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Hauradrims3's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Itachis Tsukuyomi deals damage by inflicting massive mental pain to the point that it can kill someone if he wants to. So if he uses Tsukuyomi on a shadow clone and it then poofs, would the mental pain that that clone felt be transferred to the real body?

  10. #1852
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinomori Aoshi View Post
    I'm tired of this Itachi claiming he can't beat Jiraiya... Actual japanese text:

    K:あなたなら どうにかこうにかやれる相手でもわたしじゃあわかりませんよ。。。 次元が違う

    I:ああ。。。 やり合えば二人共殺されるか
    良くて相打ちというところ

    。。。たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう

    K:ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが。。。 お守りが あの〝伝説の三人〟とは

    彼が相手では〝木の葉のうちは一族〟も 〝霧の忍刀七人衆〟の名も かすんでしまう

    I:ああ。。。 しかし。。。

    どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ。。。

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-144/10/

    Kisame's last words at least to me better translate as "That guy has a name (reputation) that exceeds both that of the "Uchiha clan" and the "Seven Swordsmen of the Mist" and NOT "That guy is a match for me and you".

    In conclusion, neither Itachi nor Kisame ever said that any one of them could not beat Jiraiya; actually Kisame fleeing with his partner a few moments later stated that there was no point in retreating.
    What say you about these translations:

    Here are two translations from MH:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gottheim
    Kisame: You should be able to take him down one one way or another, but I don't know how I'd fare.../We aren't in the same league.
    Itachi: Yeah...If we face him, the both of us might get killled./Or we'll pull off a mutual strike down if we do well./...Even coming in greater numbers might not make much of a change.
    Kisame: We thought we'd finally found him at the ramen shop... But his baby-sitter just had to be one of the Legendary Sannin./Even the names of Konoha's Uchiha clan and that of the Seven Shinobi Swordsmen of the Mist pale before an adversary like him.
    Itachi: True... But....
    Kisame: .......
    Itachi: No matter how strong someone is, they'll have some kind of weakness.... LINK
    Quote Originally Posted by NJT
    I don't know about me, but I'm pretty sure that you could have handled him.

    He's good. (lit would be he's a higher level then me)

    hmmm

    We would either both be killed or It would be a draw. It wouldn't matter if we went in with more people or not.

    We're lucky to have finally spotted him at the Ramen shop but His guard is one of the "legendary 3 ninja's."

    Having him as our opponet would make us look like nothing.*1

    hmmm, but....No matter how strong the opponet is there is a weak spot. LINK
    Address them each directly, if you will.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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  12. #1853
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member DaHeroic1's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenheadedmirror View Post
    There's three problems with this logic. Situations weren't equal, meaning Kisame vs Bee had the Jinchuuriky holding back so he wouldn't hurt his friends, Itachi was facing a non-MS Sasuke, Pein used all six bodies at a moment against Jiraya for three were beaten and admitted his old teacher may have defeated him if he had known earlier of his secret... out of the three Jiraya had the most troubling situation. Second the strength of the opponent: you are placing Sasuke, furthermore, as stated above, a non-MS Sasuke as equal to Pein. Third, it is subjective and disregarding. Clearly to us (jdw, me, people who argument in favour of Jiraya) Jiraya would have won according to action.
    You misinterpreted my entire argument. We've seen all three characters show their strongest jutsu,ace in holes, everything. Strenghth of the opponent isn't as important as Naruto isn't dbz. Point still stands we've seen the 3 characters show their strongest jutsu. Back in part 1 we hadn't seen a fight from anyone of those characters so we lacked actual manga evidence showing their feats,strengths, weakness,etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenheadedmirror View Post
    Could, may, it's not so far fetched... hypothetical interpretations on a character holding back is contradictory to your first argument, that prefers facts over character quotes but then somehow you prefer your own deductions to those quotes.
    Again we've seen the strongest jutsu of each combatant. Itachi has a sword that seals everything, a shield that blocks everything, amaterasu that can't be dodged unless your Naruto,raikage, or Minato, and hax genjutsu skills. Then Kisame is the biju without a tail. Jiraiya is a beast but in terms of feats logically Jiraiya can't beat the both of them at once. Also as shown by shinomori Aoshi the quote that you stake your argument on can be a misinterpretation as their was a page where Itachi talked about making Tsukiyomi turn into amaterasu lol. Do you take everything that every character says as a hundred percent truth when in this manga their are many instances that don't make any sense.

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  14. #1854
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Shinomori Aoshi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    @jdw

    I updated my post, please have a look at it. (not that it changed anything dramatically)

    Also, if njt or gottheim were in this conversation I would address them, but unfortunately we're stuck with who we are at the moment; if they show up, I hope they clear this - I won't try to reach them. So, if you know japanese yourself, look at the original and compare all the translations to see which is better. If you don't, I hope someone other does, so that he/she can validate or reject my translation. Although I believe that Itachi's words make more sense than the previous tranlsations and I'm pretty sure about Kisame. I will accept the opinion of a more experienced translator than myself or a native speaker.

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  16. #1855
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member DaHeroic1's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    I would also like to add to the people who take every sentence we've read from the manga as fact is if you can say the Itachi,Kisame, Jiraiya situation is 100% true then what about other situations that have been stated by the manga. Here i'll run through a few so called manga facts.

    1. Sai being the strongest ninja of his generation lol. No one has said anything to go against this claim so we are to believe that shit.
    2. Hanzo being a man who could never lose in a one on one fight when we've seen him be owned by Mifune. No panel stating otherwise.
    3. Here http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/455/13 Naruto states Madara was so strong Minato couldn't do anything against him. Does this mean Minato<Madara? No panel stating otherwise as you don't count actual feats from flashback as proof.

    I could go on and on with this but if you want to except the kisame-itachi words as fact then what i pointed above is also fact as well even though we've seen otherwise. I'm not saying everything the manga says isn't true but we should be able to think outside of whats written down in front of undeniable action.

  17. #1856
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaHeroic1 View Post
    I would also like to add to the people who take every sentence we've read from the manga as fact is if you can say the Itachi,Kisame, Jiraiya situation is 100% true then what about other situations that have been stated by the manga. Here i'll run through a few so called manga facts.

    1. Sai being the strongest ninja of his generation lol. No one has said anything to go against this claim so we are to believe that shit.
    2. Hanzo being a man who could never lose in a one on one fight when we've seen him be owned by Mifune. No panel stating otherwise.
    3. Here http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/455/13 Naruto states Madara was so strong Minato couldn't do anything against him. Does this mean Minato<Madara? No panel stating otherwise as you don't count actual feats from flashback as proof.

    I could go on and on with this but if you want to except the kisame-itachi words as fact then what i pointed above is also fact as well even though we've seen otherwise. I'm not saying everything the manga says isn't true but we should be able to think outside of whats written down in front of undeniable action.
    1. Manga fact that Danzou felt that way.
    2. Manga fact that Jiraiya felt that way.
    3. Manga fact that Minato felt that way.

    As it stands, it is manga fact that Itachi felt that way.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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  19. #1857
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Nicholas.Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaHeroic1 View Post
    I would also like to add to the people who take every sentence we've read from the manga as fact is if you can say the Itachi,Kisame, Jiraiya situation is 100% true then what about other situations that have been stated by the manga. Here i'll run through a few so called manga facts.

    3. Here http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/455/13 Naruto states Madara was so strong Minato couldn't do anything against him. Does this mean Minato<Madara? No panel stating otherwise as you don't count actual feats from flashback as proof.
    Lets not forget that Minato said it himself...

    It's funny, I remember when this contradiction was brought up a while ago; every person who mentioned it was labeled as a "Minato hater"/troll.

  20. #1858
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member DaHeroic1's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    1. Manga fact that Danzou felt that way.
    2. Manga fact that Jiraiya felt that way.
    3. Manga fact that Minato felt that way.

    As it stands, it is manga fact that Itachi felt that way.
    Your using that manga fact as proof that Itachi can't beat Jiraiya. I could say the same thing with the situations i pointed out.

    1. Naruto, Sasuke, Neji, Shino, etc r less then the great sai. A ninja who was a candidate for Hokage put Sai on that high of a pedastool.
    2. Ninja like Jiraya, Orochimaru,Itachi,the kages,etc r no match for Hanzo bc Jiraiya praised him even after his pitiful performance against Mifune.:
    3. Minato can't beat Madara bc he stated so even though in a one on one confrontation he layed a rasengan on his ass, took away his control of kyubbi, and forced him to retreat.

    I"m done with this argument as it's pointless for right now as Itachi wont see Jiraiya in this tournment anyway. Infact both will probally be knocked out in the next 2 rounds or so lol.

  21. #1859
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Here is what I said before:

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    While all of that is fine and I realize that Itachi is complex, the manga is the proof of the manga. Him stating he and Kisame cannot defeat Jiraiya is not proof that they can. Even if Jiraiya could not defeat them both, until it is shown differently, Itachi believed that Jiraiya could, and that belief is manga fact.

    When people say he didn't want to kill Jiraiya out of love for Konoha, then explain why he was so willing to execute others who stood next to Jiraiya as strong loyal Konoha shinobi? Fine, every time it counts, he has other things are on his mind, so that is proof he would have acted otherwise.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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  23. #1860
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

    Even if we assumed Itachi believed that, that doesn't mean Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi.

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