Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread

[ninjabot]

@Ninjabot : Sorry but I'm sure you're just wrong about the whole Naruto's last attempt against Pain. Please, I invite you to read from this page : http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/2.html
You'll state that when Naruto went outside the collapsing fog he was still in Sage Mode AND from this very moment he was always in front of Pain. So he couldn't create the clones after his two FRS without being noticed, it doesn't make sense. The only moment he could do that was when the little moon was collapsing.

It's really that hard to figure out? Fine. A play by play, if that's what it takes.

From that first scan, Naruto is in Sage Mode. It's clear, thanks to the red eyeshadow. Then, Naruto reaches the ground. Still in Sage Mode.

Next, because he hasn't started any strategy whatsoever, he starts looking around, puzzled. He's confused because of everything that happened during his "absence", as the Kyuubi took control. No making clones. No strategy. Just confusion.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/5.html For you guys to be saying he made those clones before he hit the ground, he sure doesn't look battle ready. Infact, on page 7 he's CRYING. Continue reading.

He goes on to complain about feeling bad about the destruction he caused. It's also a big point to bring up that you inaccurately claimed he made the clones beforehand, THEN kicked God Realm over to where his clones were set. You have not seen any KB made up to this point thus far. Just bellyaching. If you have, there's a problem. Continue on.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/11.html Naruto initially doesn't want to fight, but to talk to Nagato. God Realm refuses. At this point, he's prepared to fight again. THIS is the point where we should start looking for damn clones. Matter of factly, he even states "I have a plan..." implying that he just now figured out a way to stop God Realm with the strategy we're about to see. Not friggin' a chapter ago while he's still a mindless beast. Not whilst sitting idly up on Chibaku Tensei. Now. Not before. Just. Now.

Continue reading.

Naruto knocks down God Realm. He starts looking for Nagato through chakra sensing. Again, no clones created. Until this panel http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/15.html the first clones created. Notice how they don't disappear right after activating FRS? It's because they're getting in position. Hell, they even look like they're moving in opposite directions. Then?

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/17.html The smoke bomb comes guaranteeing that God Realm will be watching the smoke cloud throughout the entirety of Naruto's plan. Meaning everything happening behind and beside him, he is unaware of do to focusing on one point. Get it? If not, keep reading.


http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/17.html Second FRS comes out. Look at Naruto's eye. You see that? No more Sage Mode. The other two clones? Still not accounted for. I wonder what they're up to now that Sage Mode's clone limitation doesn't matter, thanks to Naruto's Sage Mode ending...

Keep in mind, God Realm is still watching the real Naruto, and the cloud of smoke that's slowly dissipating. Not paying attention to whatever's happening around him. It's that exact lack of attention that gives Naruto's clones time to blanket the battlefield with more clones, so that they all can perform henge to disguise themselves as rubble. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/5.html The first two dispel their henge to try to catch him. Once they fail, all the others jump him.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/6.html No sage mode, thus no clone limitation.

Here's the part where you guys get confused though: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/8.html "He'd already used a Kage Bunshin." You think he's talking about dropping out clones the instant he hit the ground. Which if you read what I have above, you'd recognize as bull, because he wasn't even prepared to fight yet, nor did he admit to having any plan until the fight actually started. Sure, it's possible he would set clones just incase talking to God Realm didn't work... but remember, God Realm only knows the clones were set up before the second FRS hit him. He has no idea when they were set however. I'm sure that picture leads to confusion aswell, but since you don't see any handseals, you can't expect anyone to take a picture of Naruto sitting completely still as proof of him using Kage Bunshin. That's daft.

It's also important to remember, God Realm never saw any handseals (and neither did we). There's no reason to assume he made those clones prior to running out of Sage Mode because just like God Realm, we didn't see it happen. We DID however see him make clones for the FRS. Clones that never disappeared. Clones that were capable of making even more clones while he was busy trying to defend against the double FRS combo.

So there you go. If that didn't fix things, nothing will.

So you know better then Pein when Naruto created the clones? Pein states that Naruto used the clones when he was in sage mode so whatever "non-nonsense" you belive its irrelevant.

Apparently. I didn't know watching a guy sit still counted as proof of them performing a ninjutsu. According to God Realm it does.

Bub at least you can put it with "what i belive to be the truth".

And allude to a possibility me being wrong? Why lie to people like that? If I had any doubt at all, sure I'd backpeddle and put up a disclaimer like that. But I can afford to be wreckless because I'm not wrong.

Asumtion from one side of the quote to the other. We know that Naruto is in control of himself up to 4 tails, this is manga fact. He is more feral but that is it.

Proof you're not even paying attention to what the argument's about. The fight at the VOTE was PRE-timeskip. Meaning no, Naruto could not control up to 3 tails. He had no control over any tails whatsoever at that point.

What does this have to do with anything? Its not like Sasuke needs the sharingan to do stuff right? Kyuubi chakra is his power so its irrelevant what Kyuubi does for him. Also the Kyuubi clearly only gave Naruto his chakra in those 2 separate moments when he summon the frog AND when he was fighting Neji. Also there is no evidence Kyuubi helped Naruto manipulate chakra(this is actualy the first time i got to hear this, perhaps you got some proof from the manga?).

There's a difference between needing more chakra to perform a jutsu, and needing help successfully controlling your chakra. Or even chakra granted to you by a bijuu for that matter. It's common fact that Naruto had trouble controlling his chakra because of the Kyuubi. Yet, once the Kyuubi starts showing influence (whether from granting more chakra to Naruto's own, or by controlling him), his shape manipulation and chakra is far more potent than anything he could've ever succeeded at doing on his own. He went from screwing up summonings, to getting summons from luck. He went from needing clones for Rasengan, to managing a one handed Rasengan. All of these are individual instances where Naruto's chakra control wasn't hindered by the Kyuubi. And that's because the Kyuubi wasn't being suppressed as strongly anymore. His influence was seeping through.

Reading is far more than knowing what a word means. It's understanding what's happening in the things that you read.

Creating a chakra shield =/= giving Naruto some of his chakra. Also he needs the Kyuubi chakra because that way he has TONS of it. Also biju blast is 4 tails + and then he is in Kyuubi mode.

What? My point is that they Kyuubi is responsible because Naruto would fail at the feats he attempted that required Kyuubi chakra to do if it wasn't there. And no, creating a chakra shroud is not different from giving Naruto chakra, because he's STILL using his chakra to protect Naruto! Whether he's covering him in chakra, or powering him up with it. Christ.

The principles are the same but that is it. Raikiri and Chidori are about the same but you don't see Sasuke doing Raikiri (who is superior) do you? Kyuubi would never start doing rasengans in his hands lol or at least it never happened in any of the instances when Biju's where out. So again 1 big asumtion here.

The principles are the same. That's my entire point. You thought it was "LOL"worthy that I would claim the Kyuubi could help Naruto form a Rasengan in his hand, and I was showing you that he can already form something basically, essentially, the same as a Rasengan, to prove that he could help form a Rasengan if he felt like it. To make the Chidori and Raikiri analogy work, Kakashi would need control of Sasuke's body, and would need to make a Raikiri in Sasuke's hand, despite him not knowing how to make one. Yet even then the analogy's flimsy because Sasuke's shape manipulation doesn't suck.


No he needed Kyuubi chakra and nothing more ... all those chapters with J man stating it over and over and you just refuse it. But keep trying to prove the manga wrong...

Also Rasengan was done in chakra shield mode and in that form he can manipulate the arms/chakra crep even if the thing also moves itself. So the extra arms could come from this. This is a higly debatable point on how it happen and unless you can prove the Kyuubi helped him by direcly controling the chakra for Rasengan is complety irrelevant as i can give you more then 1 valid explanations for that and they don't involve the Kyuubi, we can asume here all day if you whant.

And none of them would be believeable. Not once has Naruto been shown to be training to shape the Kyuubi's chakra into claws or arms before the timeskip, but I'm just supposed to believe he knew how to do it against Sasuke? He had no control over anything at all Kyuubi related, outside of forcing some of the chakra out by sitting still and focusing (like against Neji, and when Kisame chopped through his chakra and threatened to leave him legless).

Prove to me that Sasuke can cut his nails(with manga pics or he can't lol). Its is damn obvious that if before all he needed is the Kyuubi chakra to do it and now he has full acces to it whenever he needs it then he can do it easy. I don't need to show you anything.

If you want your opinon to have the slightest bit of worth in a direct reply to my claims you do. If not, that's fine, but don't waste my time with replies if you're not gonna take them seriously. Claiming you can prove me wrong, then picking up your ball and going home because "it's hard" won't earn you any respect around here.

@Shaunlim: Kakashi and Ebisu both mention that Naruto's chakra control stinks, so that's not true that it was never said that Naruto was bad and molding chakra.

[Shaunlim]

@Shaunlim: Kakashi and Ebisu both mention that Naruto's chakra control stinks, so that's not true that it was never said that Naruto was bad and molding chakra.

I would suggest that you reread what I typed first. I never said that it wasn't mention how bad Naruto was at chakra molding/chakra control. I said that there was no mentioning regarding anything about chakra control when it comes to summoning. All that was every mentioned was the amount of chakra used.

[Gats]

It's really that hard to figure out? Fine. A play by play, if that's what it takes.

From that first scan, Naruto is in Sage Mode. It's clear, thanks to the red eyeshadow. Then, Naruto reaches the ground. Still in Sage Mode.

Next, because he hasn't started any strategy whatsoever, he starts looking around, puzzled. He's confused because of everything that happened during his "absence", as the Kyuubi took control. No making clones. No strategy. Just confusion.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/5.html For you guys to be saying he made those clones before he hit the ground, he sure doesn't look battle ready. Infact, on page 7 he's CRYING. Continue reading.

He goes on to complain about feeling bad about the destruction he caused. It's also a big point to bring up that you inaccurately claimed he made the clones beforehand, THEN kicked God Realm over to where his clones were set. You have not seen any KB made up to this point thus far. Just bellyaching. If you have, there's a problem. Continue on.

No, he was ready for battle, just look his face, just after his end of his meeting with Minato :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/2.html
+
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/4.html

He started to look everywhere and began to be worried only when Little Katsuyu went out of his clothes, stating "Whew...I thought I was a goner", then Naruto realized the possible meaning of her words :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/5.html
But the clones were ready.

Later, Pain stated he made the clones "then", behind his head we can see the picture of Naruto standing with the remaining rocks of the little moon. Which proves all by itself that Naruto did all of this before :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/8.html
The same picture as :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/5.html

He did this, unseen by Pain thanks to the cloud of dust. This picture doesn't mean he did it in 2s.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/4.html

So my point still stands.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/11.html Naruto initially doesn't want to fight, but to talk to Nagato. God Realm refuses. At this point, he's prepared to fight again. THIS is the point where we should start looking for damn clones. Matter of factly, he even states "I have a plan..." implying that he just now figured out a way to stop God Realm with the strategy we're about to see. Not friggin' a chapter ago while he's still a mindless beast. Not whilst sitting idly up on Chibaku Tensei. Now. Not before. Just. Now.

The "I have a plan" part is a direct answer to Katsuyu when she said "how ?", if you read just before again, Naruto said "I'll just have to find the real one myself". Which means that his plan is to use Pain's chakra rods in order to find his true location, this is exactly what he did just after that :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/12.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/13.html

Beating Pain itself wouldn't help him to find his true location, but the chakra rods yes.

Naruto knocks down God Realm. He starts looking for Nagato through chakra sensing. Again, no clones created. Until this panel http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/15.html the first clones created. Notice how they don't disappear right after activating FRS? It's because they're getting in position. Hell, they even look like they're moving in opposite directions. Then?

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/17.html The smoke bomb comes guaranteeing that God Realm will be watching the smoke cloud throughout the entirety of Naruto's plan. Meaning everything happening behind and beside him, he is unaware of do to focusing on one point. Get it? If not, keep reading.


http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c441/17.html Second FRS comes out. Look at Naruto's eye. You see that? No more Sage Mode. The other two clones? Still not accounted for. I wonder what they're up to now that Sage Mode's clone limitation doesn't matter, thanks to Naruto's Sage Mode ending...

Keep in mind, God Realm is still watching the real Naruto, and the cloud of smoke that's slowly dissipating. Not paying attention to whatever's happening around him. It's that exact lack of attention that gives Naruto's clones time to blanket the battlefield with more clones, so that they all can perform henge to disguise themselves as rubble. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/5.html The first two dispel their henge to try to catch him. Once they fail, all the others jump him.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/6.html No sage mode, thus no clone limitation.


Here's the part where you guys get confused though: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/8.html "He'd already used a Kage Bunshin." You think he's talking about dropping out clones the instant he hit the ground. Which if you read what I have above, you'd recognize as bull, because he wasn't even prepared to fight yet, nor did he admit to having any plan until the fight actually started. Sure, it's possible he would set clones just incase talking to God Realm didn't work... but remember, God Realm only knows the clones were set up before the second FRS hit him. He has no idea when they were set however. I'm sure that picture leads to confusion aswell, but since you don't see any handseals, you can't expect anyone to take a picture of Naruto sitting completely still as proof of him using Kage Bunshin. That's daft.

It's also important to remember, God Realm never saw any handseals (and neither did we). There's no reason to assume he made those clones prior to running out of Sage Mode because just like God Realm, we didn't see it happen. We DID however see him make clones for the FRS. Clones that never disappeared. Clones that were capable of making even more clones while he was busy trying to defend against the double FRS combo.

So there you go. If that didn't fix things, nothing will.

This part is very interesting since, besides the picture I described before, there is another picture which utterly destroys all your argument :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/9.html
Picture at the top left. You can see the shoulder of one of his clone near him after he sent his two FRS. So no, his clones didn't got away.
And this : http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/8.html Look at the background of the big picture, you can see THREE silhouette on Naruto's side.

So the clones are just getting a step away from Naruto because...heh...FRS is dangerous enough to manipulate.

Besides the fog Naruto made doesn't cover, at all, all the battlefield. And :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/6.html
It seems Pain is not as blind as you think. Even by focusing on the FRS he didn't to move his head at all to know that two clones are jumping on him, and then uses his chakra rods to get rid of them and dodging the FRS even without looking at them 1s.

This picture : http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/12.html
(top left)
is just showing that Naruto is making a seal to creates many clones who will hold him against the last Shinrai Tensei :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/14.html


edit : I would add that there is also a plot flaw from Kishi which gives more fuel to my points, but that's bonus : Why Pain would charge Sage Naruto with Taijutsu ? He is supposing to know he is no match against him in melee fight (fat Pain K.O, Deva Pain received a nice kick on his face). But Kishi made it happens. Then why Naruto just didn't use frog Kata to punch his face hard and finish him and just take his rod ? No he just broke the rod and kicked him to the very place where he was. Weird huh ?

edit 2 : added another proof with a picture in my last part of answer.

edit 3 : we already saw that some effects can be directly shared with the shadow clones. Like the part when Naruto was "Kyuubiing" vs Deidara then his clones felt pain. Or even when his Sage clone disappeared when Naruto was almost Kyuubi.

[xXan]

@ ninjabot

Apparently. I didn't know watching a guy sit still counted as proof of them performing a ninjutsu. According to God Realm it does.

Good enoug for me. So people are going to have to decide if they go with your "truth" or accept what Deva stated in the manga.

The rest are just complete asumtions like:

Proof you're not even paying attention to what the argument's about. The fight at the VOTE was PRE-timeskip. Meaning no, Naruto could not control up to 3 tails. He had no control over any tails whatsoever at that point.

We actualy have Naruto scrach Sasuke head protector as proof that he was in control(but feral), hell the Kyuubi would never go and create a rasengan but keep trying.

If you want your opinon to have the slightest bit of worth in a direct reply to my claims you do. If not, that's fine, but don't waste my time with replies if you're not gonna take them seriously. Claiming you can prove me wrong, then picking up your ball and going home because "it's hard" won't earn you any respect around here.

You wanting on screen evidence of that(or it can't happen) is completly irrelevant. A logical conclusion can be formed.

Take it from me whent everybody is against you it usualy means you are wrong.

[MonsterEnvy]

Can we please put the sound 4 in please they have more feats then Omoi, Aoba and Anko

[Raizen]

Mods, please settle this before the tournament begins, if possible: can Naruto create sage mode kage bunshins in large numbers? I can see this issue derailing entire fights.

Naruto also created hundreds of KBs and turned them into rocks during his last battle with deva

---

the tournament hasn't started and yet the debates are already heated lol

[ninjabot]

This part is very interesting since, besides the picture I described before, there is another picture which utterly destroys all your argument :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/9.html
Picture at the top left. You can see the shoulder of one of his clone near him after he sent his two FRS. So no, his clones didn't got away.
And this : http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/8.html Look at the background of the big picture, you can see THREE silhouette on Naruto's side.

So the clones are just getting a step away from Naruto because...heh...FRS is dangerous enough to manipulate.

Did you forget that Naruto's clones can use any ninjutsu he uses, including Kage bunshin? That was my whole point: that the other two clones got into position to create Kage Bunshin around God Realm thanks to the FRS distraction. All these panels prove is that the clones that were first stabbed were not the first two that ran from Naruto, but others that were created by the first two.

Later, Pain stated he made the clones "then", behind his head we can see the picture of Naruto standing with the remaining rocks of the little moon. Which proves all by itself that Naruto did all of this before :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c442/8.html

You're not showing God Realm watch Naruto create handseals. You're showing him do the exact same thing you're doing: assuming. No way in hell a ninja sitting perfectly still counts as them performing handseals/ninjutsu. Because he didn't see the clones activated, he has no choice but to assume they happened when he wasn't looking. Which they did, just not that far back when Naruto was busy crying.

edit 3 : we already saw that some effects can be directly shared with the shadow clones. Like the part when Naruto was "Kyuubiing" vs Deidara then his clones felt pain. Or even when his Sage clone disappeared when Naruto was almost Kyuubi.

And what happened to those clones might I ask? That's right: they were useless because the chakra couldn't be split amongst them correctly. Naruto himself cause d a side effect amongst them all with his unnatural chakra that immobilized them and made them feel pain. Likely something similar would happen with a 1000 Sage Mode clones, but instead of them feeling pain they would turn into stone frogs, because it's the exact same thing: chakra coming from Naruto that is greater within him, but is so potent and requires so much focus and chakra that his limited-chakra KB can't possibly hope to maintain.

It makes too much damn sense for you to be fighting it so hard.

[Delbi]

Regardless, there's still no sign of "aiding" from the Kyuubi. All that was ever stated regarding Naruto getting Bunta is him not having the chakra pool to do so when he was young. But thanks to the Kyuubi's chakra, he had enough. Nothing was ever mentioned regarding precise chakra control when it comes to summoning. Kuchiyose have always involved chakra capacity rather than control. Train to release the highest amount of chakra possible

If this was the case, then why did Jiraiya have to concentrate so hard to summon the elder Sages?

There has to be a degree of control when summoning otherwise you don't know what summon you are bringing forth, that's simple common sense.

Saying that, this is also common sense. When Pa wanted to teach Naruto Sage Mode, he has no idea he wouldn't be able to fuse with him.

So, why would he teach him Sage Mode, if Naruto couldn't summon him so they could fuse in the first place? That would seem sort of stupid would it not?

And even if we can argue that Naruto can't summon exactly who he wants, guess what, since his chakra pool is so big, it's not like he's going to undershoot the process and summon a shitty little frog. No, instead, he's going to put too much chakra and end up summong Bunta or Ken anyway.

And just a few other things.

Naruto can't create a Rasengan with a clone, he said so himself when training with Bee, and thus Bee told him how to create chakra arms.

Also, I'm not sure what the hell everyone is arguing about Naruto making Kage Bushins, but understand this, Kage Bushins are EXACT copies of Naruto and his current condition. So, if he creates clones in Sage Mode, guess what, the clones will be in Sage Mode when created, tehy won't be normal Naruto's.

So if Naruto wants to summons 1000 clones while in Sage Mode, that's great. But frankly, they'll run drive of Sage Chakra as soon as they move because they would have such a small amount of Natural Energy in them at that point.

[Gats]

Did you forget that Naruto's clones can use any ninjutsu he uses, including Kage bunshin? That was my whole point: that the other two clones got into position to create Kage Bunshin around God Realm thanks to the FRS distraction. All these panels prove is that the clones that were first stabbed were not the first two that ran from Naruto, but others that were created by the first two.

They were too far for that and I just don't see any of them running faster than a FRS launched. Unless you're assuming that Naruto or his clone can pop a clone far away from them...which is even more hax than Minato's jutsu.
There is not a single picture which showed Naruto's clone doing other clones. You can't say you're not assuming.

You're not showing God Realm watch Naruto create handseals. You're showing him do the exact same thing you're doing: assuming. No way in hell a ninja sitting perfectly still counts as them performing handseals/ninjutsu. Because he didn't see the clones activated, he has no choice but to assume they happened when he wasn't looking. Which they did, just not that far back when Naruto was busy crying.

Pain assuming that is a message from Kishi to explain us what happened, it's so typical from a manga such as Naruto. It always happened like this. And I don't understand what you're talking about with the ninja sitting perfectly still. Naruto did it covered by the cloud of dust.

As I showed you, Naruto's whole crying business only happened when Katsuyu came out of his clothes, not before.

And what happened to those clones might I ask? That's right: they were useless because the chakra couldn't be split amongst them correctly. Naruto himself cause d a side effect amongst them all with his unnatural chakra that immobilized them and made them feel pain. Likely something similar would happen with a 1000 Sage Mode clones, but instead of them feeling pain they would turn into stone frogs, because it's the exact same thing: chakra coming from Naruto that is greater within him, but is so potent and requires so much focus and chakra that his limited-chakra KB can't possibly hope to maintain.

It makes too much damn sense for you to be fighting it so hard.

That a huge assumption. How can you know that, when Naruto is making a mass kagebunshin, that the Sage chakra would dominate his own in each clone ?
When you do a Kage Bunshin you divide evenly your chakra right ? That's the same here. There are less chakra on each clone but the proportion are the same, there is also less natural chakra.

Besides the thing is Naruto's clones felt pain when the original was transforming while here...Naruto was already transformed.

But I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

[ninjabot]

They were too far for that and I just don't see any of them running faster than a FRS launched. Unless you're assuming that Naruto or his clone can pop a clone far away from them...which is even more hax than Minato's jutsu.
There is not a single picture which showed Naruto's clone doing other clones. You can't say you're not assuming.

There were two FRS launched. Besides, Naruto managed to make clones, make a Rasengan, throw himself, AND hit God Realm all in one second. Ofcourse he can out run his second FRS if he takes off while the first one is being finished.

Pain assuming that is a message from Kishi to explain us what happened, it's so typical from a manga such as Naruto. It always happened like this. And I don't understand what you're talking about with the ninja sitting perfectly still. Naruto did it covered by the cloud of dust.

Not in that panel you're showing. You're showing a panel of Naruto just looking at God Realm, and God Realm looking at him. He COULD have done it in the cloud of dust, but we don't see that happening anymore than we see my strategy happening. The onlly thing that gives my opinion more validity is the simple fact that we've yet to see Naruto create thousands of clones in Sage Mode, outside of his dream sequence.

As I showed you, Naruto's whole crying business only happened when Katsuyu came out of his clothes, not before.

And? As soon as he dropped, we don't see any jutsu performed. Before he drops we don't see any jutsu performed. We just see alot of assumption.

That a huge assumption. How can you know that, when Naruto is making a mass kagebunshin, that the Sage chakra would dominate his own in each clone ?
When you do a Kage Bunshin you divide evenly your chakra right ? That's the same here. There are less chakra on each clone but the proportion are the same, there is also less natural chakra.

Besides the thing is Naruto's clones felt pain when the original was transforming while here...Naruto was already transformed.

But I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

We're not. When Naruto is FRS training we see his Kyuubi chakra start leaking through, and his clones start feeling pain. Naruto was the one letting the chakra come through, and it affected the clones.

Because the clones only had a small portion of Naruto's chakra, the Kyuubi chakra that permeated them started screwing with them because there was no balance. Same thing should happen with Sage Mode. Replace Kyuubi chakra with Natural Energy and you get clones that turn into stone frogs instead of clones that get stomach aches.

Also, I'm not sure what the hell everyone is arguing about Naruto making Kage Bushins, but understand this, Kage Bushins are EXACT copies of Naruto and his current condition. So, if he creates clones in Sage Mode, guess what, the clones will be in Sage Mode when created, tehy won't be normal Naruto's.

Correct. This is proof that he wasn't in Sage Mode when he made the clones that surrounded God Realm with henge, because they were not in Sage Mode. If he made them in Sage Mode, they would have stayed in Sage Mode because they didn't expend their own Sage Chakra while Naruto was performing two consecutive FRS's.

[xXan]

There were two FRS launched. Besides, Naruto managed to make clones, make a Rasengan, throw himself, AND hit God Realm all in one second. Ofcourse he can out run his second FRS if he takes off while the first one is being finished.

1 second WTF? And he had 2 clones left:

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-442-page-15.html

[Gats]

There were two FRS launched. Besides, Naruto managed to make clones, make a Rasengan, throw himself, AND hit God Realm all in one second. Ofcourse he can out run his second FRS if he takes off while the first one is being finished.

I know there were two, I'm talking in general. Besides Naruto didn't throw himself whe he did his FRS stuff.
One second is pure assumption, there were'nt any countdown this time.

Not in that panel you're showing. You're showing a panel of Naruto just looking at God Realm, and God Realm looking at him. He COULD have done it in the cloud of dust, but we don't see that happening anymore than we see my strategy happening. The onlly thing that gives my opinion more validity is the simple fact that we've yet to see Naruto create thousands of clones in Sage Mode, outside of his dream sequence.

Man, we saw this kind of situation sooooo many times : Naruto doing KageBunshin offscreen is so common now and then seeing his clones striking.
As long as Naruto doesn't have any other clones who was focusing on gathering chakra he can do whatever he wants.

We didn't see him peed so he just can't peed ? Because we didn't see it even if it's logical ?

And? As soon as he dropped, we don't see any jutsu performed. Before he drops we don't see any jutsu performed. We just see alot of assumption.

Same answer as just above.

You're telling me that his clones running all over the battlefied (assumption 1) in front of Pain, faster than FRSs (assumption 2), then making mass kage bunshin all around Pain without him noticing (assumption 3) that (while he was able to dodge FRS by using the two clones near him without even looking at them) makes more sense than simply doing mass shadow clone at the very beginning hidden by the dust ?
("assumption" confirmed at least by a character in the manga, even if you think it's another assumption)

We're not. When Naruto is FRS training we see his Kyuubi chakra start leaking through, and his clones start feeling pain. Naruto was the one letting the chakra come through, and it affected the clones.

Because the clones only had a small portion of Naruto's chakra, the Kyuubi chakra that permeated them started screwing with them because there was no balance. Same thing should happen with Sage Mode. Replace Kyuubi chakra with Natural Energy and you get clones that turn into stone frogs instead of clones that get stomach aches.

His clones just disappeared.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v36/c322/10.html

This time it was one of his clone, everyone was just getting away or disappearing :
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v36/c329/1.html

The only time when his clone felt Pain was against Deidara, and yet, we were very far from the thousand clones. There was only one left : http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v31/c277/9.html
Just before, the 4 others (still very far from 1000) left, disappeared just before he was accumulating tails.

It's different from Sage Mode because SM only exists when his inner chakras are already balanced. So even if he makes clone, tinier his chakra would be, but also Nature's chakra too, in the same proportion. Actually if we push it very far, the Sage Nature would more likely disappear more than taking over Naruto's chakra. Since, even if the proportion remains the same there would be too few nature chakra to have any effect, that's also why you need a lot of chakra, to gather enough Nature chakra to make it worthwhile. Besides Naruto was already in Sage Mode before the clone.

In Kyuubi's case, he lets it wild free, there is no balance at all.

[Shaunlim]

If this was the case, then why did Jiraiya have to concentrate so hard to summon the elder Sages?

There has to be a degree of control when summoning otherwise you don't know what summon you are bringing forth, that's simple common sense.

I never said that there wasn't any control involved because obviously there is a certain degree to it. I simply argued the fact that summoning have always been more to the chakra capacity(using the amount required) rather than chakra control.

As for why Jiraiya had to concentrate so hard, he wasn't doing that just to summon the Sages. Take note that when he summoned them, he straight entered SM with the two sages attached to him. Which leads me to think that he wasn't just summoning them then.

[M3J]

Why are we arguing about summoning? It's manga fact so far that Naruto can't summon Bunta without Kyuubi's chakra. Every time he tried with just his own, he failed and brought out Gamakichi instead. When the fox lent him his chakra, Naruto was able to bring out Bunta. While Naruto can bring out Bunta, he can't do it without Kyuubi's chakra... which might mean Bunta has the most chakra out of all the frogs.

Oh, and Naruto's tajuu kage bunshins being in sage mode happened in his mind, which is different from real life. Though, he might be able to do tajuu kage bunshin if none of his bunshin is aiming to concentrate sage chakra or sage mode.

[xXan]

Why are we arguing about summoning? It's manga fact so far that Naruto can't summon Bunta without Kyuubi's chakra. Every time he tried with just his own, he failed and brought out Gamakichi instead. When the fox lent him his chakra, Naruto was able to bring out Bunta. While Naruto can bring out Bunta, he can't do it without Kyuubi's chakra... which might mean Bunta has the most chakra out of all the frogs.

Oh, and Naruto's tajuu kage bunshins being in sage mode happened in his mind, which is different from real life. Though, he might be able to do tajuu kage bunshin if none of his bunshin is aiming to concentrate sage chakra or sage mode.

I sugest you read the discusion first. ninjabot states that Kyuubi was the one (well more or less) performing the summoning by controling Naruto or by at least helping him mold chakra or whatever. We where also stating that now when Naruto has full control over the Kyuubi's chakra he should have no problem summoning frogs but he states that Kyuubi needs to help him to do that(like direcly and not only giving him some chakra).