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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Shunsui

    68 65.38%
  • Yoruichi

    36 34.62%
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Thread: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Omiem's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You don't remember Starrk attempting to hit Shunsui, and never succeeding, save for a graze on his elbow, and one cheap shot?
    Those were Ceros, not Sonido.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by Omiem View Post
    We're talking about speed here, right? People say that Shunsui dealt with Starrk's full speed, and I don't recall seeing a panel of this at all.
    Shunsui put Starrk on the defensive. That's why you don't see many panels showing Starrk moving about. Shunsui was dodging ceros left and right, Starrk was almost stationary. But he did have to dodge Shunsui's attacks like this one and then had to shoot a cero to disrupt this attack.

  4. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    What's Yoruichi wearing in this fight? If she's wearing her trademark orange top then her entire upper body isn't available for attack by Iraoni, which I believe will be the only one of his "games" which would be effective against Yoruichi. However, the fact that he is clearly an adept swordsman and uses two swords won't make it easy for Yoruichi regardless of whether he plays any of his games.

  5. #19
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Just saying, alot of people throw that up as proof that Shunsui couldn't take Starrk. As for the whole "max speed" thing and why I keep bringing Cero into the equation, the fact that he uses guns means he won't be in a situation where he's gonna be speedblitzing anyone because guns aren't made for that, they're for long range assaults.

    Yet and still, the fact that there was never an instance where Starrk was ever at a speed advantage in that fight. Using dual guns meant he never had to make a play to outpace Shunsui, just turn his head and shoot. Like when he hits him with Busho Goma and attacks his blindspot. He simply turns and aims. All I'm getting at is, Starrk hasn't shown an ability to speedblitze Shunsui. And with his insane speed being more impressie than Yoruichi's, it makes sense to believe that someone slower than the guy that couldn't overwhelm him with speed, can't do the same either.

  6. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Omiem's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Shunsui put Starrk on the defensive. That's why you don't see many panels showing Starrk moving about. Shunsui was dodging ceros left and right, Starrk was almost stationary. But he did have to dodge Shunsui's attacks like this one and then had to shoot a cero to disrupt this attack.
    Starrk was actually distracted before all of that here. So he wasn't really serious during that moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Just saying, alot of people throw that up as proof that Shunsui couldn't take Starrk. As for the whole "max speed" thing and why I keep bringing Cero into the equation, the fact that he uses guns means he won't be in a situation where he's gonna be speedblitzing anyone because guns aren't made for that, they're for long range assaults.

    Yet and still, the fact that there was never an instance where Starrk was ever at a speed advantage in that fight. Using dual guns meant he never had to make a play to outpace Shunsui, just turn his head and shoot. Like when he hits him with Busho Goma and attacks his blindspot. He simply turns and aims. All I'm getting at is, Starrk hasn't shown an ability to speedblitze Shunsui. And with his insane speed being more impressie than Yoruichi's, it makes sense to believe that someone slower than the guy that couldn't overwhelm him with speed, can't do the same either.
    Or, it could just be that Starrk chose not to fight using mainly his Sonido.

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  8. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Just saying, alot of people throw that up as proof that Shunsui couldn't take Starrk. As for the whole "max speed" thing and why I keep bringing Cero into the equation, the fact that he uses guns means he won't be in a situation where he's gonna be speedblitzing anyone because guns aren't made for that, they're for long range assaults.

    Yet and still, the fact that there was never an instance where Starrk was ever at a speed advantage in that fight. Using dual guns meant he never had to make a play to outpace Shunsui, just turn his head and shoot. Like when he hits him with Busho Goma and attacks his blindspot. He simply turns and aims. All I'm getting at is, Starrk hasn't shown an ability to speedblitze Shunsui. And with his insane speed being more impressie than Yoruichi's, it makes sense to believe that someone slower than the guy that couldn't overwhelm him with speed, can't do the same either.
    http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-15.html

    That's the very definition of a blitz right there. He outright sonidos behind him and slashes his back quicker than Shunsui can react and block. Shunsui on the other hand requires the haori distraction to land a proper hit, even after Starrk's speed has literally been crippled by way of having a (second) hole made in his chest. Yes, we know Starrk slowed down A LOT after he got hit with that shadow attack. Why? He actually got hit by this: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-12.html. The earlier Starrk that was dodgin time-altered ceros sent back to him out of bloody nowhere would have dodged that in his sleep.
    Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; March 23, 2011 at 01:18 AM.

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  10. #22
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by Omiem View Post
    Starrk was actually distracted before all of that here. So he wasn't really serious during that moment.

    Or, it could just be that Starrk chose not to fight using mainly his Sonido.
    Shunsui wasn't serious either. He even admits that his sword didn't even feel like playing the games later on. Distracted in a fight can spell doom. That's why I like the way Shunsui fights. He can be a tricky guy one point, then be straight up the next. Whatever the case is, it's hard to read him. His games are random and to figure those things out you'll need to see them first. No one goes in and plays a game without having some type of grasp on the rules. That's why Starrk was lucky to get the gray called on him.

    And shoottokill, if Yoruichi is wearing her black and orange, it doesn't matter- her only color to call would be black, but seeing as how Shunsui goes first, he'll probably be calling 'black' in irooni. And the orange jacket does cover most of her upper body, but then again, white covered most of Starrk's upper body, and Shunsui's 'black' sliced him right down the middle. Yoruichi's orange jacket isn't covering her chest area fully, just the area Shunsui struck on Starrk that ended his life. Saying that I don't see what would prevent Shunsui from winning irooni off the bat. It doesn't matter what happens, if he throws off his captains robe and wears all black, the damage done to Yoruichi is as good as a death shot.

    I see people saying Starrk slowed down 'a lot' when he was stabbed by Shunsui. How is that so? Is there any proof of that? Or is it speculation that he slowed down because he got stabbed? By that same logic, I can say Shunsui got slowed down after he took a cero to the back and Lisa kicked him in the face and stomped his head in the ground. The fact is that's an opinion, not a fact.
    Last edited by freshseth83; March 23, 2011 at 01:23 AM.

  11. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    For this fight I'm gonna have to go with Yoruichi. If a favored Yoruichi over Byakuya, then obviously I'm gonna do the same here. There's no way Shunsui's shikai is superior to Byakuya's bankai.

    I'll outright say that Shunsui's only hope here is iro oni. Yoruichi's too quick for the others (just like Starrk).

    In the color game, I'd say it could go either way (50/50), but when you consider we got a 50/50 shot at the zanpakutou even being in the mood to play the damn thing in the first place, that already puts the odds in Yoruichi's favor. In other words, if it doesn't come up she wins by default, if it does come up, it could go either way. Voting for Yoruichi.

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  13. #24
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo
    http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-15.html

    That's the very definition of a blitz right there.

    No, it isn't actually. You don't see Starrk sonido-ing behind Shunsui to cut his back. Shunsui's already showing his back to Starrk, meaning all he had to do is swing down with his sword after knocking away Shunsui's sword. Makes far more sense considering his back is already pointed at Starrk.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo
    Shunsui on the other hand requires the haori distraction to land a proper hit, even after Starrk's speed has literally been crippled by way of having a (second) hole made in his chest. Yes, we know Starrk slowed down A LOT after he got hit with that shadow attack. Why? He actually got hit by this: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-12.html. The earlier Starrk that was dodgin time-altered ceros sent back to him out of nowhere would have dodged that in his sleep.

    So we're to pretend that the Cero to Shunsui's back had no ill effect? For all we know that gash that Shunsui got just now in your panel you showed forced him to use his true speed, explaining why he could beat Starrk to the punch. Why wasn't Starrk using that speedblitze speed to dodge while he and Shunsui were clashing swords?

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  15. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    No, it isn't actually. You don't see Starrk sonido-ing behind Shunsui to cut his back. Shunsui's already showing his back to Starrk, meaning all he had to do is swing down with his sword after knocking away Shunsui's sword. Makes far more sense considering his back is already pointed at Starrk.
    The hell? Showing his back to Starrk? Uhh no, look at the page right before that one, they were both facing each other. Starrk got behind him and struck him before Shunsui could even fully turn around.

    Quote Quote:
    So we're to pretend that the Cero to Shunsui's back had no ill effect? For all we know that gash that Shunsui got just now in your panel you showed forced him to use his true speed, explaining why he could beat Starrk to the punch. Why wasn't Starrk using that speedblitze speed to dodge while he and Shunsui were clashing swords?
    Compared to Shunsui putting his huge ass sword through Starrk's chest, yes, that cero did jack. Starrk's individual ceros were never shown to be impressive at all. He hit Rose with one (possibly more; we don't know we just see he was in the rubble) and it didn't do much to him either.

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  17. #26
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    For this fight I'm gonna have to go with Yoruichi. If a favored Yoruichi over Byakuya, then obviously I'm gonna do the same here. There's no way Shunsui's shikai is superior to Byakuya's bankai.

    I'll outright say that Shunsui's only hope here is iro oni. Yoruichi's too quick for the others (just like Starrk).

    In the color game, I'd say it could go either way (50/50), but when you consider we got a 50/50 shot at the zanpakutou even being in the mood to play the damn thing in the first place, that already puts the odds in Yoruichi's favor. In other words, if it doesn't come up she wins by default, if it does come up, it could go either way. Voting for Yoruichi.
    Just like bushogoma was too slow to catch Starrk? Did you forget that it surrounded him? Without any knowledge of his games, how is she going to know what it is? Then as soon as Bushogoma is around Starrk, you see Shunsui go directly to Takaoni. You think Yoruichi will notice? Starrk had a cero to nullify Takaoni, but what does Yoruichi have? Shunko?

    Irooni is 100/0 in Shunsui's favor IMO. She has no knowledge of the game, and the first turn is all it'd take for him to win. He won't attack orange, since there's no orange on him, and in this fight there's no "i was planning on giving you hints". It's just- throw off my captains robe and kimono and call black- one hit kill.

  18. #27
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    And shoottokill, if Yoruichi is wearing her black and orange, it doesn't matter- her only color to call would be black, but seeing as how Shunsui goes first, he'll probably be calling 'black' in irooni. And the orange jacket does cover most of her upper body, but then again, white covered most of Starrk's upper body, and Shunsui's 'black' sliced him right down the middle. Yoruichi's orange jacket isn't covering her chest area fully, just the area Shunsui struck on Starrk that ended his life. Saying that I don't see what would prevent Shunsui from winning irooni off the bat. It doesn't matter what happens, if he throws off his captains robe and wears all black, the damage done to Yoruichi is as good as a death shot.

    I see people saying Starrk slowed down 'a lot' when he was stabbed by Shunsui. How is that so? Is there any proof of that? Or is it speculation that he slowed down because he got stabbed? By that same logic, I can say Shunsui got slowed down after he took a cero to the back and Lisa kicked him in the face and stomped his head in the ground. The fact is that's an opinion, not a fact.
    A cero to the back =/= being run through by one of Shunsui's blades. A lot of people seem to be able to tank ceros without too much of an adverse effect on their performance from then on, but unless you're Kenpachi or perhaps Yama, being run through is going to slow you down a lot. Starrk, being an Espada, would have had hierro, but he wasn't a tank by any means.

    Yoruichi's orange jacket does cover most of her chest, so Shunsui either has a minor target in this area or he will have to go for her legs. However, Starrk HAD been slowed down by the time Iraoni was being played, and he had lost his resolve to fight, so the situation is rather different from Yoruichi's. Shunsui will not be able to lame her while she's distracted, and she has no reason to lose her resolve. Being at full speed, I don't see why she shouldn't dodge his blade as with any other attack.

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  20. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Just like bushogoma was too slow to catch Starrk? Did you forget that it surrounded him? Without any knowledge of his games, how is she going to know what it is? Then as soon as Bushogoma is around Starrk, you see Shunsui go directly to Takaoni. You think Yoruichi will notice? Starrk had a cero to nullify Takaoni, but what does Yoruichi have? Shunko?

    Irooni is 100/0 in Shunsui's favor IMO. She has no knowledge of the game, and the first turn is all it'd take for him to win. He won't attack orange, since there's no orange on him, and in this fight there's no "i was planning on giving you hints". It's just- throw off my captains robe and kimono and call black- one hit kill.
    That's exactly why it's a 50/50. After he calls out "black" if she hits him first he's the dead one lol.

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  22. #29
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    The hell? Showing his back to Starrk? Uhh no, look at the page right before that one, they were both facing each other. Starrk got behind him and struck him before Shunsui could even fully turn around.

    Just look at it. When he sonido's BEHIND Shunsui and swings, the attack is blocked. You see the swords clash directly. That means it was blocked. It's not a speed blitze when you have the reaction time fast enough to block (speed blitzing is being completely caught off guard and and you're incapable of reacting btw).

    So, where'd the cut on Shunsui's back come from if the sword was blocked? You said he got behind him in the next page you posted. That didn't happen, because in your first panel he's already behind him with his sword clashing against one of Shunsui's. The only thing possible is that:

    1: Shunsui blocked, but was shallowly nicked and his own sword did more damage to him because of his game.
    2: Shunsui blocked, and Starrk swung again offpanel, hitting because he was already behind him.

    Eitherway, Shunsui was fast enough to block the sword to avoid a lethal blow. Thus, not speed blitzed.



    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guap
    Compared to Shunsui putting his huge ass sword through Starrk's chest, yes, that cero did jack. Starrk's individual ceros were never shown to be impressive at all. He hit Rose with one (possibly more; we don't know we just see he was in the rubble) and it didn't do much to him either.

    Right, cause Starrk took a nap for a few chapters after the cut too, right? The amount of downtime far exceeded what happened to Shunsui.

  23. #30
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

    I'm going with Shunsui here.
    I actually don't know how Yoruichi managed to go past Byakuya without her Zan...
    But I do believe that Shunsui is considerably stronger than Byakuya, so Yoruichi has no ways to defeat him.

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