Kyōraku Shunsui vs Shihōin Yoruichi

[El Samurai Guapo]

Just look at it. When he sonido's BEHIND Shunsui and swings, the attack is blocked. You see the swords clash directly. That means it was blocked. It's not a speed blitze when you have the reaction time fast enough to block (speed blitzing is being completely caught off guard and and you're incapable of reacting btw).

So, where'd the cut on Shunsui's back come from if the sword was blocked? You said he got behind him in the next page you posted. That didn't happen, because in your first panel he's already behind him with his sword clashing against one of Shunsui's. The only thing possible is that:

1: Shunsui blocked, but was shallowly nicked and his own sword did more damage to him because of his game.
2: Shunsui blocked, and Starrk swung again offpanel, hitting because he was already behind him.

Eitherway, Shunsui was fast enough to block the sword to avoid a lethal blow. Thus, not speed blitzed.

LOL, I like how quickly you changed your argument from "Shunsui's already showing his back to Starrk" to "the attack was blocked."

Face it already, that was a speedblitz. He didn't block the attack; I'm fairly sure as to what you're referring to, but look closely, that's just part of energy trail left behind by Starrk's blade. If Shunsui had blocked he wouldn't have had a huge slash across his back. There's no reason to assume he cut him again off-panel when it was done right there in front of us; he gave him a massive slash across his back with his energy sword.

Right, cause Starrk took a nap for a few chapters after the cut too, right? The amount of downtime far exceeded what happened to Shunsui.

Huh? That's just even more proof that Shunsui was better off than Starrk—who was fighting people back-to-back.

[freshseth83]

That's exactly why it's a 50/50. After he calls out "black" if she hits him first he's the dead one lol.

It doesn't work that way ElGuapo, you should know this with all the Shunsui hatred you put out there. They each get a TURN. That's why it's called a GAME.

What game do you play that doesn't have turns? Shunsui goes first and calls gray against Starrk, then says it's your turn. Shunsui goes first, that means that the opponent has to wait. How is she going to call out Black first if she doesn't even know he's playing a color game? He says Irooni- 'black' and it's game over. That's not 50/50, that's 100/0!

Even if Starrk managed to find an opening on his back, white was his strongest color and it did little to Shunsui to slow him any, and it didn't stop him from finishing Starrk off did it? I think what happened was when he called White, Shunsui evaded to the point that the attack was in a spot that wouldn't harm him as much as calling white and hitting him across the chest or some other area. What looked to happen was that he minimized the area of the attack, but such is the power of 'white' that it still did damage.

[Random101]

Speed blitz by definition is being unable to react. If you block it, you reacted. >>

Granted you might get some damage based on a poor block, but it's not a blitz to say the freaking least, and it's doubly important in this particular case. By extension in a similar case, provided Yoruchi operates on a similar level, she loses her hand in the same scenario, because blocking nothing but a fist with a sword = a lost fist. Possibly more based on range, as she'd have to get a lot closer to get said hit in.

[ShootToKill]

It doesn't work that way Guapo, you should know this with all the Shunsui hatred you put out there. They each get a TURN. That's why it's called a GAME.

What game do you play that doesn't have turns? Shunsui goes first and calls gray against Starrk, then says it's your turn. Shunsui goes first, that means that the opponent has to wait. How is she going to call out Black first if she doesn't even know he's playing a color game? He says Irooni- 'black' and it's game over. That's not 50/50, that's 100/0!

You're saying that he calls black, attacks Yoruichi, and she can't attack him back until she calls another color? I don't think it works that way... Considering he said that the more of a color on your body, the greater the risk, that leads me to believe that Starrk was "allowed" to attack him as well.

[freshseth83]

You're saying that he calls black, attacks Yoruichi, and she can't attack him back until she calls another color? I don't think it works that way... Considering he said that the more of a color on your body, the greater the risk, that leads me to believe that Starrk was "allowed" to attack him as well.

How is she going to attack when she's dead or unconscious? lol- you get a turn, Shunsui's turn is first. In the tournament there is no rule that says you have to explain your abilities to someone. Shunsui did this with Starrk, thats why his first attack was to his 'gray' arm. The risk factor=the reward. The GREATER the risk, the HIGHER the attack power. Did Shunsui attack white on Starrk after he said white and hit Shunsui? No. Get the rules right before you say stuff like that.

[El Samurai Guapo]

It doesn't work that way ElGuapo, you should know this with all the Shunsui hatred you put out there. They each get a TURN. That's why it's called a GAME.

What game do you play that doesn't have turns? Shunsui goes first and calls gray against Starrk, then says it's your turn. Shunsui goes first, that means that the opponent has to wait. How is she going to call out Black first if she doesn't even know he's playing a color game? He says Irooni- 'black' and it's game over. That's not 50/50, that's 100/0!

Even if Starrk managed to find an opening on his back, white was his strongest color and it did little to Shunsui to slow him any, and it didn't stop him from finishing Starrk off did it?

Pay attention. I said after HE (Shunsui) calls out "black" he's susceptible to getting hit himself. You're the one that should know the damn rules of your favorite character. He can't win just by calling out black, he also has to hit her. So here's your homework: What happens if she hits him on his turn before he does? Go ahead, look it up now and get back to me.

[ninjabot]

LOL, I like how quickly you changed your argument from "Shunsui's already showing his back to Starrk" to "the attack was blocked."

Argument wasn't changed in the slightest. I said from the beginning he was never speed blitzed, and I maintain that. I also pointed out that you said he got behind him, but you clearly see after sonidoing and having his sword blocked he's still behind him.

You showed what you thought was a speedblitze only to be corrected. There's never been an instance in this manga where someone barely nicked someone who reacted to their attack and everyone screamed "Aw snap, he got blitzed!" That only happens when the character is getting curbstomped by blows he can't react to. And blocking is a reaction.

Face it already, that was a speedblitz. He didn't block the attack; I'm fairly sure as to what you're referring to, but look closely, that's just part of energy trail left behind by Starrk's blade. If Shunsui had blocked he wouldn't have had a huge slash across his back. There's no reason to assume he cut him again off-panel when it was done right there in front of us; he gave him a massive slash across his back with his energy sword.

So then you don't see the debris from the swords clashing at all? Not the energy trail, the debris from the swords clashing together just like the other times they do so later in the fight.


http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-15.html


That was a tiny scratch, yet we see it looks far more devistating after Iro Oni kicks in, making blood spew out profusely. Remember, Starrk says himself that shallow blows are more damaging thanks to the effect of Iro Oni (when his arm is only nicked, but feels like it was cut off).

Huh? That's just even more proof that Shunsui was better off than Starrk—who was fighting people back-to-back.

If you can explain how taking a rest repairs getting shot in the damn back by a point blank energy blast (one powerful enough to down a senior captain mind you), then sure, you've got an argument. I could just as easily retort that the fact that Starrk was never in any real danger against Love and Rose that he wasn't fatigued at all (probably sore from that strike from Love, sure. That's about it though).

[Random101]

Potentially nothing if she doesn't cut. Rules of the game specify cutting, which kinda screws her over.

Then again she does have those dangers, but given they aren't Zans... yeah that'd be rough goings if he blocks those...

[ShootToKill]

How is she going to attack when she's dead or unconscious? lol- you get a turn, Shunsui's turn is first. In the tournament there is no rule that says you have to explain your abilities to someone. Shunsui did this with Starrk, thats why his first attack was to his 'gray' arm. The risk factor=the reward. The GREATER the risk, the HIGHER the attack power. Did Shunsui attack white on Starrk after he said white and hit Shunsui? No. Get the rules right before you say stuff like that.

Does it explicitly state this in the manga somewhere? I'll admit you're right if you offer me some proof. Until then I'll remain with the belief that once a color is called, both sides can attack... it doesn't make any sense otherwise. Shunsui didn't attack white on Starrk because he decided to take a gamble with his Haori throwing trick since it had the possibility of ending the fight, and luckily for him it paid off.

[freshseth83]

Even if she somehow survives being cut by Shunsui saying black. She has to figure out to call a color, and CUT it. She's not going to have any hints. He'll just end the game. Did you see Starrk getting to cut 'black' after Shunsui called it? You're making up rules. There's no rule that says you get to cut me after you're dead. I had to laugh at that one.

[ninjabot]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-14.html

Doesn't say anything about going at the same time in this panel. Just that you can only damage the part you cut if you've already said the color first.

Interestingly enough, it also says "Cut me all you want, but nothing'll happen unless you call out the color first." (or something ot that effect). I take that as literally meaning he won't be damaged unless the enemy follows the rules. Databook could shed some light on this though.

[freshseth83]

You get A TURN- as stated here. And he says the color you choose can damage yourself as well- meaning you can get hit on a color you call out if you call out white you can still get hit on white. It doesn't say anything about I get to hit you back if you call out a color. He just says the greater the risk it is to yourself, the greater the power of the attack right here.

[ShootToKill]

Even if she somehow survives being cut by Shunsui saying black. She has to figure out to call a color, and CUT it. She's not going to have any hints. He'll just end the game. Did you see Starrk getting to cut 'black' after Shunsui called it? You're making up rules. There's no rule that says you get to cut me after you're dead. I had to laugh at that one.

You're still continuing with this argument? Where does it say that Shunsui's enemy cannot retaliate when he calls a color? Where? If they couldn't retaliate, then Shunsui wouldn't be at any risk would he? This would entirely contradict what HE said.

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You get A TURN- as stated here. And he says the color you choose can damage yourself as well- meaning you can get hit on a color you call out if you call out white you can still get hit on white. It doesn't say anything about I get to hit you back if you call out a color. He just says the greater the risk it is to yourself, the greater the power of the attack right here.

Make up your mind, either he can't be attacked when he calls the color, or he is at risk, as you have just said. Which is it? It can't be both.

[ninjabot]

Again, it doesn't say they can't retaliate. It DOES however say that their retaliation will be a waste because they can't hurt him unless the color is called first.

Well, can't cut him if you wanna argue semantics.

[El Samurai Guapo]

Argument wasn't changed in the slightest. I said from the beginning he was never speed blitzed, and I maintain that. I also pointed out that you said he got behind him, but you clearly see after sonidoing and having his sword blocked he's still behind him.

You showed what you thought was a speedblitze only to be corrected. There's never been an instance in this manga where someone barely nicked someone who reacted to their attack and everyone screamed "Aw snap, he got blitzed!" That only happens when the character is getting curbstomped by blows he can't react to. And blocking is a reaction.

Which is exactly what happened here. He got hit by an attack that was too quick for him to fully react to.

You're arguing that he blocked it when he clearly got cut.

So then you don't see the debris from the swords clashing at all? Not the energy trail, the debris from the swords clashing together just like the other times they do so later in the fight.

If you're referring to what I think you are, that's blood, not debris.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-15.html


That was a tiny scratch, yet we see it looks far more devistating after Iro Oni kicks in, making blood spew out profusely. Remember, Starrk says himself that shallow blows are more damaging thanks to the effect of Iro Oni (when his arm is only nicked, but feels like it was cut off).

We never hear anything about the wound cavities magically become larger though. The only thing we know is that the damage received is proportional to how much of the color your opponent is wearing. I don't think that necessarily translates to making the wound larger. The "black" hit Starrk got hit would actually seemed pretty proportional to the slash he received on the chest from the two swords. In other words, the excess damage I think is just internal. If Shunsui had called out "black" and given Starrk a paper cut, I doubt he would just spew out a ton of blood like that, he would probably just fall over and die.

The most damning piece of evidence that Starrk did give him a nice slash across the back though is the haori; you can see the cut along the thing here. You're really grasping if you suggest that the game also made the tear in the captain's haori longer as well.

If you can explain how taking a rest repairs getting shot in the damn back by a point blank energy blast (one powerful enough to down a senior captain mind you), then sure, you've got an argument. I could just as easily retort that the fact that Starrk was never in any real danger against Love and Rose that he wasn't fatigued at all (probably sore from that strike from Love, sure. That's about it though).

I don't need to go that route because I don't believe that cero did any notable damage in the first place. Being a senior doesn't make him any tougher, and he went down, yes, but he was just playing dead. He could have gotten back up immediately and kept fighting. Starrk on the other hand was bleeding profusely and visibly in pain.. You gotta be trolling if you believe Shunsui having his clothes slightly singed even begins to compare.

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F*ck I'll just post the link myself.

http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch374-14.png

"With Iro oni, if your opponent cuts you on the color you call out, you'll take damage."