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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Aizen

    69 53.08%
  • Urahara

    61 46.92%
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Thread: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

  1. #211
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by LucyBenard View Post
    First, you are speculating that:

    2-Urahara's power remained exactly the same for the past 100 years.
    If you deny this, you destroy your own argument, you know that right? You should be advocating that he did

    Anyway, you don't have to witness a Bankai to know someone's your equal in power. Ganju didn't witness Byakuya's Bankai yet he compared his reiatsu to Zaraki's

    Now unless Byakuya is about 5-10x more powerful than Zaraki, which he is not, then the point holds true that seeing the full extent of one's abilities is not a pre-requisite for determining how powerful someone is

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  3. #212
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    If you deny this, you destroy your own argument, you know that right? You should be advocating that he did

    Anyway, you don't have to witness a Bankai to know someone's your equal in power. Ganju didn't witness Byakuya's Bankai yet he compared his reiatsu to Zaraki's

    Now unless Byakuya is about 5-10x more powerful than Zaraki, which he is not, then the point holds true that seeing the full extent of one's abilities is not a pre-requisite for determining how powerful someone is
    First, you misunderstood. ShootToKill was suggesting that Aizen "might" have had Urahara under surveillance during his time in SS and thus validates Aizen's "Urahara is equal to me" statement a 100 years later.

    I brought forth the argument that the above statement would implicitly assume that Urahara's powers did not change for the past 100 years.

    As for the Zaraki/Byakuya example, Ganju said "compared", not "equal to", as in 2=2.

    As for not needing to witness Bankai to know someone's powers, that's not true. Bankai gives anywhere from a 5 to a 10 fold power boost. That's a HUGE difference.
    Last edited by LucyBenard; March 30, 2011 at 02:47 PM.

  4. #213
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by LucyBenard View Post
    First, you misunderstood. ShootToKill was suggesting that Aizen "might" have had Urahara under surveillance during his time in SS and thus validates Aizen's "Urahara is equal to me" statement a 100 years later.

    I brought forth the argument that the above statement would implicitly assume that Urahara's powers did not change for the past 100 years.
    And that was supposed to counter it, how? You aren't advancing your point with such a notion because then you'd run into the fact that its not Kisuke who's power has to change for the statement to not be true, it's Aizen's.

    And if you can prove that Aizen's power increased you'd then have to prove that Kisuke's didn't despite the clear implications that it did, just to prove the point you're trying to make

    In other words, no, that's not a good comeback at all

    Quote Quote:
    As for the Zaraki/Byakuya example, Ganju said "compared", not "equal to", as in 2=2.
    No, he did not

    Ganju said Byakuya's reiatsu was as strong as if not stronger, otherwise known as greater than or equal to, Zaraki's.

    http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...16-page-9.html

    My point stands

    Quote Quote:
    As for not needing to witnessing Bankai to know someone's powers, that's not true. Bankai gives anywhere from a 5 to a 10 fold power boost. That's a HUGE difference.
    Power Boost as far as Zanpakuto Abilities go, yes. Power Boost as far as Base Power? No. Has anyone become more durable, punches harder, or become faster because of their Bankai except Ichigo, who's Bankai is an anamoly that surrounds his body? Not at all

    So yes, Aizens claim would be perfectly valid without ever needing to witness a Bankai

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  6. #214
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    And that was supposed to counter it, how? You aren't advancing your point with such a notion because then you'd run into the fact that its not Kisuke who's power has to change for the statement to not be true, it's Aizen's.
    I wasn't advancing anything.
    I simply stated that for Aizen to declare that his power was equal to Urahara, Urahara's powers must have remained the same for the past 100 years, or changed by the exact same amount as Aizen for their equality to hold true a 100 years later.

    Aizen is neither omnipresent nor is he omniscient. For him to judge his powers as exactly being equal to Urahara he must "magically" somehow come to know by how much Urahara's powers have changed in the last 100 years since they had no contact. Thus, such a statement is invalidated. Such a notion is ludicrous to say the least, to whoever brought it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    And if you can prove that Aizen's power increased you'd then have to prove that Kisuke's didn't despite the clear implications that it did, just to prove the point you're trying to make
    I wasn't making any points, I was simply pointing out a major flaw in such an argument that was brought up by ShootToKill; he suggested that Aizen "might" have had Urahara under surveillance and thus was able to infer all of his abilities/power in SS (wild speculation). That automatically means that for Aizen to declare that his powers is = Urahara's a 100 years later, any change in Urahara's power must have been exactly equal to Aizen's, which is as dubious and as ridiculous as it sounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    In other words, no, that's not a good comeback at all
    As I said, I was pointing out a flaw in the theory that was brought up by someone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    No, he did not

    Ganju said Byakuya's reiatsu was as strong as if not stronger, otherwise known as greater than or equal to, Zaraki's.

    http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...16-page-9.html

    My point stands
    Greater than or equal to =/= equal to. In the case of Aizen's statement, you allege that he simply stated that Urahara = His power. Your point has been debunked thoroughly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Power Boost as far as Zanpakuto Abilities go, yes. Power Boost as far as Base Power? No. Has anyone become more durable, punches harder, or become faster because of their Bankai except Ichigo, who's Bankai is an anamoly that surrounds his body? Not at all
    Base statistics change over time and age. Are you suggesting that Urahara's base statistics are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago, because that's the only point in time in which Aizen may have inferred his abilities/powers to declare it as such. Simply false. Thus, Aizen's statement holds no credibility.

    Thus, I am more inclined to believe that his statement actually was:

    "Our powers are no longer comparable" in the sense that Aizen had surpassed the shinigami realm, whereas, Urahara (other shinigami) did not. As simple as that. Makes a whole lot more sense that does not introduce a multitude of inconsistencies/questions in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    So yes, Aizens claim would be perfectly valid without ever needing to witness a Bankai
    Nope. He claimed no such thing as it would not make sense (read above). Aizen was simply referring to the power difference of someone who had surpassed the realm of shinigami to those who did not
    Last edited by LucyBenard; March 30, 2011 at 04:23 PM.

  7. #215
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by LucyBenard View Post
    I wasn't advancing anything.
    I simply stated that for Aizen to declare that his power was equal to Urahara, Urahara's powers must have remained the same for the past 100 years, or changed by the exact same amount as Aizen for their equality to hold true a 100 years later.

    Aizen is neither omnipresent nor is he omniscient. For him to judge his powers as exactly being equal to Urahara he must "magically" somehow come to know by how much Urahara's powers have changed in the last 100 years since they had no contact. Thus, such a statement is invalidated. Such a notion is ludicrous to say the least, to whoever brought it up.
    No, unfortunately nothins invalidated. Pay more attention to your craft, you're using a False Dichotomy

    Aizen was facing down Kisuke, meaning he could feel his reiatsu. Meaning he's perfectly able to make the analysis.

    Now why can't that be an option?

    Quote Quote:
    I wasn't making any points, I was simply pointing out a major flaw in such an argument that was brought up by ShootToKill; he suggested that Aizen "might" have had Urahara under surveillance and thus was able to infer all of his abilities/power in SS (wild speculation). That automatically means that for Aizen to declare that his powers is = Urahara's a 100 years later, any change in Urahara's power must have been exactly equal to Aizen's, which is as dubious and as ridiculous as it sounds
    Already debunked your idea of "debunking" that idea above

    Quote Quote:
    Greater than or equal to =/= equal to. In the case of Aizen's statement, you allege that he simply stated that Urahara = His power. Your point has been debunked thoroughly.
    You didn't debunk anything, infact that was a strawman on your part

    When did I claim anything that you typed? Re-read my point kid:

    Quote Originally Posted by My point
    Anyway, you don't have to witness a Bankai to know someone's your equal in power. Ganju didn't witness Byakuya's Bankai yet he compared his reiatsu to Zaraki's
    So yes, my point is still valid and is infact strengthened after my last post.

    Nice try though

    Quote Quote:
    Base statistics change over time and age. Are you suggesting that Urahara's base statistics are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago, because that's the only point in time in which Aizen may have inferred his abilities/powers to declare it as such. Simply false. Thus, Aizen's statement holds no credibility.

    Thus, I am more inclined to believe that his statement actually was:

    "Our powers are no longer comparable" in the sense that Aizen had surpassed the shinigami realm, whereas, Urahara (other shinigami) did not. As simple as that. Makes a whole lot more sense that does not introduce a multitude of inconsistencies/questions in the manga.
    Of course you'd say that, otherwise you wouldn't believe your own argument (Which going by the contradictions so far, you probably don't)

    Base power is Base power. I've already provided an example of another comparison being made between 2 characters, and so I debunked your idea that its impossible to do so without seeing the full extent of one's abilities

    As I said before, Aizen could've simply judged Urahara's power while he was right infront of him, as Ganju did with Byakuya

    Quote Quote:
    Nope. He claimed no such thing as it would not make sense (read above). Aizen was simply referring to the power difference of someone who had surpassed the realm of shinigami to those who did not
    Gonna ahve to declare all that false

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  9. #216
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    No, unfortunately nothins invalidated. Pay more attention to your craft, you're using a False Dichotomy
    Aizen was facing down Kisuke, meaning he could feel his reiatsu. Meaning he's perfectly able to make the analysis.
    Now why can't that be an option?
    Already debunked your idea of "debunking" that idea above
    You didn't debunk anything, infact that was a strawman on your part
    When did I claim anything that you typed? Re-read my point kid:
    So yes, my point is still valid and is infact strengthened after my last post.
    Nice try though
    Of course you'd say that, otherwise you wouldn't believe your own argument (Which going by the contradictions so far, you probably don't)
    Base power is Base power. I've already provided an example of another comparison being made between 2 characters, and so I debunked your idea that its impossible to do so without seeing the full extent of one's abilities
    As I said before, Aizen could've simply judged Urahara's power while he was right infront of him, as Ganju did with Byakuya
    Gonna ahve to declare all that false
    Anyone can suppress their reiatsu at any time at will. The notion that Aizen "sensed" Urahara's reiatsu during the battle and then compared it to his and arrived at the conclusion that his reiatsu = Urahara's is as ludicrous as it sounds. Nothing but a desperate attempt on your part to validate his already invalidated statement.

    Your Byakuya/Kenpachi example is weak and irrelevant, as I had debunked it already. Remember, greater than or equal to =/= equal to.

    Base power changes over time. You are simply implying that Urahara's base power after 100 years was equal to Aizen's just because Aizen seemed to say so.

    As I said, Aizen is neither omniscient nor is he omnipresent. Him and Urahara had no contact for over a 100 years and the next time Aizen sees him in person, he alleges (according to you): Urahara = My power.

    I do not buy such weak arguments.

  10. #217
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by LucyBenard View Post
    Anyone can suppress their reiatsu at any time at will. The notion that Aizen "sensed" Urahara's reiatsu during the battle and then compared it to his and arrived at the conclusion that his reiatsu = Urahara's is as ludicrous as it sounds. Nothing but a desperate attempt on your part to validate his already invalidated statement.
    Wrong. This rebuttal of yours relies on the idea that Urahara surpressed his reiatsu to a level Aizen couldn't read/gauge it.

    Prove that statement now or you just conceded this point to me because that's what you based it on and nothing else

    I provided an example of Ganju gauging power the same way, so your idea of it being ludicrous goes right out the window.

    Try.Again.

    Quote Quote:
    Your Byakuya/Kenpachi example is weak and irrelevant, as I had debunked it already. Remember, greater than or equal to =/= equal to.
    Ad Nauseam. You're still claiming you debunked something that you clearly misinterpreted my reasoning for presenting, and then go on to claim that exact same thing again.

    I refer you back to this post until you learn your lesson

    Address my point correctly or don't respond, the more you do the more you hurt your credibility because it's continued Ad Nauseam

    Quote Quote:
    Base power changes over time. You are simply implying that Urahara's base power after 100 years was equal to Aizen's just because Aizen seemed to say so.
    100 years is irrelevant. Aizen made the statement to Urahara's face in the present when he was gaining more power than he originally had.

    You didn't even bother refuting any of my points with this statement =/

    Quote Quote:
    As I said, Aizen is neither omniscient nor is he omnipresent. Him and Urahara had no contact for over a 100 years and the next time Aizen sees him in person, he alleges (according to you): Urahara = My power.

    I do not buy such weak arguments.
    A weak argument is one riddled with Fallacies, you presented just that in your last rebuttal and continue to do so here. Your False Dichotomy was called out and you presented it yet again here without denying the other possiblity, instead you just gave a response saying "lul kisuke can surpress his reiatsu so thats not true", without providing any evidence to prove it

    Thus, your argument is the one horribly weak here. Aizen's statement stands as well as my point for reasons you failed to address properly

    You can do better Lucy

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  12. #218
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Wrong. This rebuttal of yours relies on the idea that Urahara surpressed his reiatsu to a level Aizen couldn't read/gauge it.

    Prove that statement now or you just conceded this point to me because that's what you based it on and nothing else

    I provided an example of Ganju gauging power the same way, so your idea of it being ludicrous goes right out the window.

    Try.Again.



    Ad Nauseam. You're still claiming you debunked something that you clearly misinterpreted my reasoning for presenting, and then go on to claim that exact same thing again.

    I refer you back to this post until you learn your lesson

    Address my point correctly or don't respond, the more you do the more you hurt your credibility because it's continued Ad Nauseam



    100 years is irrelevant. Aizen made the statement to Urahara's face in the present when he was gaining more power than he originally had.

    You didn't even bother refuting any of my points with this statement =/



    A weak argument is one riddled with Fallacies, you presented just that in your last rebuttal and continue to do so here. Your False Dichotomy was called out and you presented it yet again here without denying the other possiblity, instead you just gave a response saying "lul kisuke can surpress his reiatsu so thats not true", without providing any evidence to prove it

    Thus, your argument is the one horribly weak here. Aizen's statement stands as well as my point for reasons you failed to address properly

    You can do better Lucy
    Neither does it give your flawed argument any weight. Sensing reiatsu =/= judging one's power. Reiatsu is one aspect that determine's a shinigami's prowesses, in addition to: Kido/Hand-to-hand combat/Swordsmanship skills, speed, strength, etc.

    Thus, your statement has been debunked yet again Not to mention, the notion that Aizen judged Urahara's powers simply by reading his suppressed reiatsu and concluding that Urahara = His Power gets thrown out of the window as quickly as it came in: simply ludicrous

    Ganju did not gauge power. He compared an opponent's reiatsu level to another and made it a point that his estimation was not pinpoint. He said: Byakuya's reiatsu may be equal to or greater than Zaraki's. Not to mention, reiatsu level =/= power of a shinigami.

    Debunked for the 2nd time

    You also failed to refute my main point:

    As I said, Aizen is neither omniscient nor is he omnipresent. Him and Urahara had no contact for over a 100 years and the next time Aizen sees him in person, he alleges (according to you): Urahara = My power.

    How did Aizen exactly know that his powers = Urahara after a 100 years

    Aizen was simply referring to something else: the power difference between someone who had surpassed their limits to someone who did not. Which neatly puts it into the context of the situation as Aizen had just surpassed his shinigami limits when he spoke of the above line

    As for the rest of your post, too much speculation/fallacies to read.
    Last edited by LucyBenard; March 30, 2011 at 06:52 PM.

  13. #219
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by LucyBenard View Post
    Neither does it give your flawed argument any weight. Sensing reiatsu =/= judging one's power. Reiatsu is one aspect that determine's a shinigami's prowesses, in addition to: Kido/Hand-to-hand combat/Swordsmanship skills, speed, strength, etc.
    False. All of the bolded is skill, not power. Not only that, but reiatsu determines the effectiveness of most of them as well. Especially strength

    Infact, this is a clear red herring. Power =/= Prowess. So you failed again =/

    Quote Quote:
    Thus, your statement has been debunked yet again Not to mention, the notion that Aizen judged Urahara's powers simply by reading his suppressed reiatsu and concluding that Urahara = His Power gets thrown out of the window as quickly as it came in: simply ludicrous
    Claiming to have debunked something continously in a losing argument makes you look bad =/.

    Prove his reiatsu was surpressed, or find another argument. Simple as that.

    Quote Quote:
    Ganju did not gauge power. He compared an opponent's reiatsu level to another and made it a point that his estimation was not pinpoint. He said: Byakuya's reiatsu may be equal to or greater than Zaraki's. Not to mention, reiatsu level =/= power of a shinigami.

    Debunked for the 2nd time
    Ganju did gauge power. He gauged Byakuya's reiatsu to be equal to or greater than Zaraki's, that's called gauging

    Reiatsu does equal power of a shinigami. Hence why Aizen makes this statement

    Try another route Lucy, you're not doing too good

    Quote Quote:
    You also failed to refute my main point:

    As I said, Aizen is neither omniscient nor is he omnipresent. Him and Urahara had no contact for over a 100 years and the next time Aizen sees him in person, he alleges (according to you): Urahara = My power.

    How did Aizen exactly know that his powers = Urahara after a 100 years
    No I didn't

    Once again go right back to this post until you learn your lesson kid. I addressed your point completely, and you have yet to refute it

    Quote Quote:
    Aizen was simply referring to something else: the power difference between someone who had surpassed their limits to someone who did not. Which neatly puts it into the context of the situation as Aizen had just surpassed his shinigami limits when he spoke of the above line

    As for the rest of your post, too much speculation/fallacies to read.
    False, you failed to prove any of that throughout the entirity of this thread. In fact, you've been proven wrong on numerous occassions and just repeat the same tired tactic

    Point out my fallacies then

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  15. #220
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    False. All of the bolded is skill, not power. Not only that, but reiatsu determines the effectiveness of most of them as well. Especially strength

    Infact, this is a clear red herring. Power =/= Prowess. So you failed again =/
    Are you implying that kido, swordsmanship, hand-to-hand combat, and strength have nothing to do with a shinigami's powers?

    This is what you are alleging, if I am correct: Aizen had said "My power = Urahara"?

    I'll be waiting for a clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Claiming to have debunked something continously in a losing argument makes you look bad =/.

    Prove his reiatsu was surpressed, or find another argument. Simple as that.
    It's a fact though, I've debunked your flawed and illogical argument. Your argument in a nutshell: "Aizen sensed Urahara's reiatsu and thus was able to conclude without any uncertainty that his powers = Urahara's in the midst of battle after a 100 years of no contact"

    Nothing but BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Ganju did gauge power. He gauged Byakuya's reiatsu to be equal to or greater than Zaraki's, that's called gauging

    Reiatsu does equal power of a shinigami. Hence why Aizen makes this statement

    Try another route Lucy, you're not doing too good
    Gauging reiatsu =/= gauging power. Or he would have said: Byakuya is as powerful or more powerful than Zaraki. You need to realize that reiatsu isn't the only aspect that determine's a shinigami's power. Shinigami have 4 designated areas of combat. Those are what determine a shinigami's powers. Take for example Kenpachi: without learning Kendo (a swordsmanship skill), we would have been killed by the 5th Espada. Thanks to such a skill, he survived. Ergo, Shinigami power =/= reiatsu alone.

    Repeat after me: Reiatsu =/= power.

    Lesson learned: possessing reiatsu alone does not make you powerful. Knowing and having the skills to channel it and use it (Shinigami combat) is what makes you powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    No I didn't

    Once again go right back to this post until you learn your lesson kid. I addressed your point completely, and you have yet to refute it
    Nope, you failed again on multiple levels. Gauging reiatsu = not the same as gauging one's power. Shinigami limits involve other areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    False, you failed to prove any of that throughout the entirity of this thread. In fact, you've been proven wrong on numerous occassions and just repeat the same tired tactic

    Point out my fallacies then
    And yet again you failed to answer my main point:

    As I said, Aizen is neither omniscient nor is he omnipresent. Him and Urahara had no contact for over a 100 years and the next time Aizen sees him in person, he alleges (according to you): Urahara = My power.

    How did Aizen exactly know that his powers = Urahara after a 100 years
    Last edited by LucyBenard; March 30, 2011 at 07:34 PM.

  16. #221
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    Re: Aizen Sōsuke vs Urahara Kisuke

    Aizen wins the match! He shall advance on into the Semifinals. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

    Stay tuned for more details!

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