Kurosaki Ichigo vs Hirako Shinji

[cloudo]

No, you'd say Hollow Ichigo has a pretty decent chance of showing up based on your opinion. There are no manga facts to support you.

Just a little reminder of what Tsukisama said about Ichigonator's availability in this tournament:



So if you are going to use Ichigonator as a crutch to support your argument that Ichigo can beat Shinji, please please please provide me with some sort of an explanation as to how Ichigonator will come out, otherwise find another argument. Ichigonator is not a power that Ichigo can bring out at will. I guess it doesn't really matter since, for reasons I mentioned in earlier posts, transforming into Ichigonator would be a disadvantage for Ichigo, but its the principal of the matter.

Everyone's comments are their opinion. That's why this is a voting based thread. So everyone has their own opinion on whether or not their chosen character wins. If someone believes that Hollow Ichigo could make an appearance, why say it's wrong? If you say it's wrong, that's your opinion. So neither is right, neither is wrong. It's just a differing opinion. Not everyone shares the same views.

[LucyBenard]

No, you'd say Hollow Ichigo has a pretty decent chance of showing up based on your opinion. There are no manga facts to support you.

Nope. I've already explained it previously. Read chapters 222 and 411.
Hollow Ichigo has a decent chance of showing up, based on manga facts. Inoue has nothing to do with it

[CeroOskuraz]

Lol, Random, what you didn't prove was that Collateral damage means jack. What you did prove was that your case falls short of something; solid proof. You've thrown circumstantial evidence at me.

What do I mean by circumstantial evidence? It means evidence that can be interpreted both ways. Allow me to explain

>Hitsugaya causing a room the size of a building to blow up by drawing his sealed sword, barely gets anything done without bankai.

Proves nothing except that a Captain's Shikai is capable of that.

>Kenpachi causing a building to collapse by casually swinging his sword, considerable trouble at the same level against a mid level espada without pulling BS.

Proves nothing except that Nnoitra's durability is greater than that of a building.

>Byakuya's bankai casually wrecks an entire massive building, 7th espada survives.

Proves nothing except that Zommari's durability is high.

>Ceros are absurdly massive explosions. Don't do shit until plot demands it.

Never ever use plot as an excuse. Regardless, have you noticed a trend now? The only thing you proved with those comparisons were that characters are more durable than buildings. Let me drive home that point, a panel that ruins your case

So nice try. Now let me expound my case. Ceros consist of Rei. The amount of Rei that is put into the attack signifies the amount of Rei that comes out when the attack is released. Collateral damage suddenly has a whole new meaning about it.

So in the end what did you prove? Jack, just like you claimed collateral damage shows.

[Random101]

Proves nothing except that a Captain's Shikai is capable of that.

Not Shikai. Sealed. There was no ice involved there.

The only thing you proved with those comparisons were that characters are more durable than buildings.

EXACTLY.

Collateral damage means jack all, and this PRECISELY is why. A blast can be absolutely massive, do a crap ton of damage to a landscape, and do virtually nothing to anything that actually matters and it would be garbage because of that exact fact. This is the exact reason why you cannot judge booms by the size, you have to judge it either by what it does to a target of bare minimum roughly equal power, which means nothing remotely involving collateral because NOTHING in the landscape involves anything of actual resistance to even the weakest of ceros, which in general are garbage as attacks, or the general affect it has on the people around it who aren't actually hit, in the case of Soifon's bankai.

Ichinator's cero lacks both, due to plot retardation yes, but suffice to say there isn't much beyond it equaling a BC to base how strong it is on (which I still hold is stronger than Shinji's of course). Oh there's a lot of power thrown into it sure. But energy in a blast means jack all if the blast's overall energy distribution is garbage. Ie: doing zero damage to something it was directly fired at point blank, beyond blasting away something that was already cut off.

Or failing to do anything to a weak character 10 feet away in the massive explosion that followed, though that one at least has the excuse of the cero being destabilized before it could activate.

Also now that I think about it:

Ceros consist of Rei. The amount of Rei that is put into the attack signifies the amount of Rei that comes out when the attack is released. Collateral damage suddenly has a whole new meaning about it.

This also means jack all since in terms of a cero, only a fraction of that energy is hitting, depending how close the target is. Making a cero wider only weakens the overall punch it has. Size and importantly collateral damage means literally nothing, what matters is the actual power the attack has. Power cannot be determined by size (if anything size takes away from power as the more compressed a blast is the more dangerous it would be), it's determined by the damage it does to something actually resilient to anything.

Buildings are about as brittle as paper to even Sealed Captains. The amount of power needed to break those is nothing, especially Las Noches.

[LucyBenard]

Not Shikai. Sealed. There was no ice involved there.


EXACTLY.

Collateral damage means jack all, and this PRECISELY is why. A blast can be absolutely massive, do a crap ton of damage to a landscape, and do virtually nothing to anything that actually matters and it would be garbage because of that exact fact. This is the exact reason why you cannot judge booms by the size, you have to judge it either by what it does to a target of bare minimum roughly equal power, which means nothing remotely involving collateral because NOTHING in the landscape involves anything of actual resistance to even the weakest of ceros, which in general are garbage as attacks, or the general affect it has on the people around it who aren't actually hit, in the case of Soifon's bankai.

Ichinator's cero lacks both, due to plot retardation yes, but suffice to say there isn't much beyond it equaling a BC to base how strong it is on (which I still hold is stronger than Shinji's of course). Oh there's a lot of power thrown into it sure. But energy in a blast means jack all if the blast's overall energy distribution is garbage. Ie: doing zero damage to something it was directly fired at point blank, beyond blasting away something that was already cut off.

Or failing to do anything to a weak character 10 feet away in the massive explosion that followed, though that one at least has the excuse of the cero being destabilized before it could activate.

Also now that I think about it:


This also means jack all since in terms of a cero, only a fraction of that energy is hitting, depending how close the target is. Making a cero wider only weakens the overall punch it has. Size and importantly collateral damage means literally nothing, what matters is the actual power the attack has. Power cannot be determined by size, it's determined by the damage it does to something actually resiliant to anything.

Buildings are about as brittle as paper to even Sealed Captains. The amount of power needed to break those is nothing, especially Las Noches.

Are you implying that the radius of a blast is meaningless?

Consider blast A, it has a radius of 10 m. Blast B has a radius of 20 m. As a result blast B is more powerful.

[Random101]

Consider blast A with a radius of 10 m which utterly wrecks a captain level combatant.

Consider blast B of 20 meters which mildly chars a vice captain level combatant.

Blast A is more powerful, because it does more damage to something that has a higher level of defense. Size means jack, power behind the blast is everything. Size only increases the odds of hitting, which is important, but if the power isn't enough to do anything then it's ultimately futile.

For example, absolutely none of the blasts thrown around during the final Aizen vs. Ichigo even remotely came close to the size of a Lanza, much less Ulquiorra's own black Cero, which took off a good chunk of the top of Las Noches, which while not as big as some would like to think, is still pretty damn massive.

But does that mean Ulquiorra's Lanza, or hell his R1 Black Cero is somehow more powerful than thrice evolved beings from the realm of shinigami? Hell No. Damage potential is more important for determining the strength of a blast.

[LucyBenard]

Are you still somehow ignoring that the lower body would logically have fallen down the massive gaping hole right there and we wouldn't know because we couldn't see jack down that way? Because that destroys that argument completely to say the freaking least. >>

False. Manga states that the lower body was destroyed. Also, manga shows that the lower body did not "fall" off along the lines of the earlier sword cut.

You failed twice now

---

Consider blast A with a radius of 10 m which utterly wrecks a captain level combatant.

Consider blast B of 20 meters which mildly chars a vice captain level combatant.

Blast A is more powerful, because it does more damage to something that has a higher level of defense. Size means jack, power behind the blast is everything. Size only increases the odds of hitting, which is important, but if the power isn't enough to do anything then it's ultimately futile.

I wasn't talking about the radius of the energy wave, I was referring to the resultant radius of the shockwave.

[Exodi]

Are you implying that the radius of a blast is meaningless?

Consider blast A, it has a radius of 10 m. Blast B has a radius of 20 m. As a result blast B is more powerful.

If we're talking in Bleach terms, this isn't exactly correct.

Unless you mean to tell me that Hiyori's cero has the same effect as, say, Starrk's. Random101 pretty much explained it perfectly.

[CeroOskuraz]

Not Shikai. Sealed. There was no ice involved there.

Irrelevant whether it's sealed or not. He can do it. What's your point?

Collateral damage means jack all...

.

Are you serious? Stop making shit up to impose a standard on us. Maybe you haven't noticed but I never ever accept standards without thorough proof. You have provided no proof that supports your argument. Circumstantial evidence = Non sequitur, so try again.

I'm trying to explain to you about Rei output, and about how the greater the size of the explosion the larger amount of Rei is put into it but you seemingly are either incapable of grasping such a simple concept or simply refuse to. Well fine, let me explain it again.

Explosion size = Energy Output ~ Energy Input. (~ means Analogous)

Ichinator's cero lacks both, due to plot retardation yes, but suffice to say there isn't much beyond it equaling a BC to base how strong it is on (which I still hold is stronger than Shinji's of course). Oh there's a lot of power thrown into it sure. But energy in a blast means jack all if the blast's overall energy distribution is garbage. Ie: doing zero damage to something it was directly fired at point blank, beyond blasting away something that was already cut off.

Because H2 Ichigo's cero never even nearly fully detonated here. It's like you're trying to ignore Manga canon or something. There's a clear disparity between that explosion and this one. Will you quit deyping something based on just its collateral damage output? It indicates REI OUTPUT, something you seem to be incapable of grasping.

This also means jack all since in terms of a cero, only a fraction of that energy is hitting, depending how close the target is. Making a cero wider only weakens the overall punch it has. Size and importantly collateral damage means literally nothing, what matters is the actual power the attack has. Power cannot be determined by size (if anything size takes away from power as the more compressed a blast is the more dangerous it would be), it's determined by the damage it does to something actually resilient to anything.

Irrelevant, and I know this ALREADY.

Buildings are about as brittle as paper to even Sealed Captains. The amount of power needed to break those is nothing, especially Las Noches.

EXACTLY. Which is why the feat is not destroying Las Noches, but the feat is the comparison size of the blast with that of the size of Las Noches

[Random101]

Shock waves are also irrelevant frankly. Size means jack for those two, power is what's important. Those Las Noches sized shockwaves? Couldn't even toss Ishida and Orihime off the gooddamn platform, even in cases where the barrier wasn't up in front of them, meaning the only thing keeping them on that roof at times, particularly when the Lanza went off, was the friction between their feet and the ground, as they had nothing to hold onto. Soifons? It tore her right through a freaking steel enforced cloth and slammed her into a building.

And yet apparently none of the other fights were affected, and keep in mind the area they have to fight in is only a square mile. I certainly didn't see anything even remotely implying the other combatants were thrown the hell into anything. Again, same issue of strength >>>> size.

Mind this fundamentally makes no goddamn sense whatsoever, logically speaking shockwaves should continue on till they run out of energy, meaning the more potent the longer it has to go until the displacement disperses, but that's what happens when explosions go more for coolness factor rather than actual logic.

Also:

False. Manga states that the lower body was destroyed.

Haha, no it doesn't. We never see the body, nothing's known about what happened to it sure, but saying it's destroyed would require us to actually see it not in the place it would logically be.

Logically? It would be down the massive hole the cero just created, as crap like that freaking falls.

Edit:

It's like you're trying to ignore Manga canon or something. There's a clear disparity between that explosion and this one. Will you quit deyping something based on just its collateral damage output? It indicates REI OUTPUT, something you seem to be incapable of grasping.

Not what I was talking about in that part. It does zero damage to Ulquiorra, despite being point blank to the head, and only blasts away the part that was already cut off and does zero damage to the upper body, an upper body which was closer to the epicenter of the blast. Which means the part that got hit with the brunt of it was completely unharmed. >>

I'm denying collateral damage and size, which determines collateral damage because that's the leading factor to actual collateral damage.

If by blast however you mean shockwave, not freaking 'cero blast' however, you might be on more of the right track. Lord knows beyond damage potential, which rarely ever happens because that's the lamest way to end a fight, it's the only way to tell any sort of difference. But potency is screwing you over there too. Size means precisely jack there too because Kubo borked the science, the potency is such that it's only knocking aside a little sand.

Meaning it has all the strength of a mildly potent windy day. Yippy.

Also more importantly:

EXACTLY. Which is why the feat is not destroying Las Noches, but the feat is the comparison size of the blast with that of the size of Las Noches

So basically you're not arguing against the fact that collateral damage means jack then, because what you agreed with there is PRECISELY WHAT THAT MEANS.

[LucyBenard]

If we're talking in Bleach terms, this isn't exactly correct.

Unless you mean to tell me that Hiyori's cero has the same effect as, say, Starrk's. Random101 pretty much explained it perfectly.

Resultant blast shockwave radius is proportional to initial power.

[CeroOskuraz]

Shock waves are also irrelevant frankly. Size means jack for those two, power is what's important. Those Las Noches sized shockwaves?

Soifons? It tore her right through a freaking steel enforced cloth and slammed her into a building.

Look, I magnified your blatant inconsistency for everyone to see.

Couldn't even toss Ishida and Orihime off the gooddamn platform, even in cases where the barrier wasn't up in front of them, meaning the only thing keeping them on that roof at times, particularly when the Lanza went off, was the friction between their feet and the ground, as they had nothing to hold onto.

You do realize how far away Lanza was away from them when it detonated right? And you do know that H2 Ichigo's blast didn't actually detonate on Las Noches, but went straight through it right? And also, you realize why they weren't thrown back rite?

And you do realize the shape of Las Noches right?


Stop presenting half-truths. It's a really horrible logical fallacy to abuse.

And yet apparently none of the other fights were affected, and keep in mind the area they have to fight in is only a square mile. I certainly didn't see anything even remotely implying the other combatants were thrown the hell into anything. Again, same issue of strength >>>> size.

No, it's not. Soi Fon's shockwave isn't enough to shatter windows of buildings but is enough to rip steel sashes (that by the way are fodder because it's steel and Pre-SS arc Ichigo could already break that kind of material) and toss people backwards.

H2's cero straight up obliterates everything around it. Why didn't it toss around Orihime and Ishida? Because something else already did.

[LucyBenard]

Haha, no it doesn't. We never see the body, nothing's known about what happened to it sure, but saying it's destroyed would require us to actually see it not in the place it would logically be.

Logically? It would be down the massive hole the cero just created, as crap like that freaking falls.

Ulquiorra states that his body was destroyed. You didn't read it yet?

---

H2's cero straight up obliterates everything around it. Why didn't it toss around Orihime and Ishida? Because something else already did.

Also, Inoue put up her shield.

[CeroOskuraz]

If by blast however you mean shockwave, not freaking 'cero blast' however, you might be on more of the right track. Lord knows beyond damage potential, which rarely ever happens because that's the lamest way to end a fight, it's the only way to tell any sort of difference. But potency is screwing you over there too. Size means precisely jack there too because Kubo borked the science, the potency is such that it's only knocking aside a little sand.

Stop. More collateral damage equals more Rei output. It's such a simple concept, don't try to complicate it. More Rei output equals more damage.

Meaning it has all the strength of a mildly potent windy day. Yippy.

Ad Nauseum; see above.

So basically you're not arguing against the fact that collateral damage means jack then, because what you agreed with there is PRECISELY WHAT THAT MEANS.

No, I mean the size of the cero doesn't dictate strength of the cero because we don't know the concentration of the cero. For example this cero is bigger but has terrible Rei concentration while this one has much stronger Rei concentration.

Early attempt to earn a concession, next time don't jump the shark kid.

[Random101]

Look, I magnified your blatant inconsistency for everyone to see.

Size means jack for those two, power is what's important.

I requoted the bit of the quote you blatantly ignored despite quoting that completely covered that. >>

And also, you realize why they weren't thrown back rite?

And you do realize the shape of Las Noches right?

So they were tossed further down the dome, the shockwave started from roughly the center and traveled down the dome, hence the sand below being displaced, and they weren't thrown further down. You do realize that's retarded right?

No, it's not. Soi Fon's shockwave isn't enough to shatter windows of buildings but is enough to rip steel sashes (that by the way are fodder because it's steel and Pre-SS arc Ichigo could already break that kind of material) and toss people backwards.

Congrats, you just pointed out the inconsistencies Kubo likes to present that makes Shockwave logic in Bleach inaccurate as hell like I just detailed.

However you missed a massive point here. Yes steel in Bleach is weak to strikes. Soifon wasn't hit however. The shockwave itself, and not the blast, had enough force to throw her body back so hard it tore through her reinforced sash. Not through a physical strike, sheer concussive force of a blast existing. When all the shockwaves atop the unstable Las Noches couldn't make Orihime or Ishida budge, even without any restraints of any sort, even in cases when the shields weren't up(the best and most accurate case that destroys the arguement being here: http://www.mangareader.net/94-804-14...apter-350.html ), despite both being of roughly the same distance from both blasts, give or take a couple of irrelevant meters, as Orihime did not take long rushing to Ichinator after that. Soifon's shockwave power >>>>>>>>> that.

H2's cero straight up obliterates everything around it. Why didn't it toss around Orihime and Ishida? Because something else already did.

First off I think you and me are using different terms of obliterate here, because my obliterate is what Yamamoto's double bone did to Wonderwiess. Ichinator's Cero did jack shit along those lines.

Also see the above. That sword swing didn't remotely knock either far enough away that a shockwave the likes of las noches in size wouldn't affect them.