Kurosaki Ichigo vs Hirako Shinji

[shuha27]

So many fallacies here:

1) To Aizen, Shinji's Shikai was nothing but child's play. That means, it could be challenging to Ichigo, there is no reason to doubt that he wouldn't be to overcome it though, as he had already demonstrated ample intelligence

2) That's actually Hollow Ichigo. As stated by the manga, Hollow Ichigo is bound to take over Ichigo's body given the chance.

3) Ichigo did not die when he first fought Ulquiorra.

1) Aizen and Ichigo are two different people. Even if Ichigo is perceptive does not mean he can counter Sakanade. You are giving to much credit to Ichigo he isn't all that great compared to Aizen.

2) Show me proof if that was actually stated. I don't recall that....

3) He obviously died the first time. He had no response to anything and he looked lifeless.

[LucyBenard]

So explain why Hollow Ichigo is not acting like his typical self when he fought Ulquarra R2?

And also explain why he was so concerned about protecting Orihime?

If I head to guess my bet would be that Ichigo was somehow able to tap into Hollow Ichigo's true power (Hence the reason why Hollow Ichigo was shown using it) but Ichigo not being able to fully handle it wen't insane and beserk but still remembered his true motives to protect Orihime.

And as i've pointed out earlier that comment made by Hollow Ichigo sounds more like a threat to one day take over his body and forever have control.

You can interpret it in many ways but it doesn't exactly mean that everytime Ichigo dies he automatically will assume that form.

It only means that Hollow Ichigo by some means has confirmed that he will find a way to take over Ichigo should he some day slip up in some way.

Your theory crumbles when we bring in the fact that Ichigo regains control of his body with no memory of what has transpired. Hence, Ichigo was not involved at all. As the manga reveals later on, it was Hollow Ichigo who had taken over Ichigo's body and assumed control.

As for Hollow Ichigo's desire to protect Inoue, that's easily understood: Inoue was pleading for help from Ichigo. Now considering Hollow Ichigo's egocentric nature, he proceeds to fulfill her wishes because that is something Ichigo had failed to do. Ichigo had failed to protect Inoue, which Hollow Ichigo takes on as a challenge to prove himself as the superior being of the two. Much like how Hollow Ichigo proceeded to decimate Byakuya just because he wanted to show the difference in his skills and power to Ichigo.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Your theory crumbles when we bring in the fact that Ichigo regains control of his body with no memory of what has transpired. Hence, Ichigo was not involved at all. As the manga reveals later on, it was Hollow Ichigo who had taken over Ichigo's body and assumed control.
skills and power to Ichigo.

Hence the reason why i said he went insane.

going insane and blacking out would be a very likely explaination to why Ichigo had no memory of what transpired.

And where in the manga does it specifically state that Hollow Ichigo 100% took over Ichigo's body?

Please post a link that is not pure assumption on your part since you seem to be stating this as if it where a FACT.

[LucyBenard]

1) Aizen and Ichigo are two different people. Even if Ichigo is perceptive does not mean he can counter Sakanade. You are giving to much credit to Ichigo he isn't all that great compared to Aizen.

2) Show me proof if that was actually stated. I don't recall that....

3) He obviously died the first time. He had no response to anything and he looked lifeless.

1) That is indeed true. However, whether Ichigo has what it takes to overcome a cheap trick such as Shinji's Shikai or not is a difference of opinion.

2) See this post

3) Nope. Ulquiorra only wounded him as evidenced later when Grimmjow commands Inoue to "heal" him, not "resurrect" him.

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Hence the reason why i said he went insane.

going insane and blacking out would be a very likely explaination to why Ichigo had no memory of what transpired.

And where in the manga does it specifically state that Hollow Ichigo 100% took over Ichigo's body?

Please post a link that is not pure assumption on your part since you seem to be stating this as if it where a FACT.

So you would rather believe that Ichigo went mental rather than acknowledge that it was Hollow Ichigo who took control, as the manga confirms later one here.

Well, I guess everyone has their opinions

[shuha27]

Your theory crumbles when we bring in the fact that Ichigo regains control of his body with no memory of what has transpired. Hence, Ichigo was not involved at all. As the manga reveals later on, it was Hollow Ichigo who had taken over Ichigo's body and assumed control.

As for Hollow Ichigo's desire to protect Inoue, that's easily understood: Inoue was pleading for help from Ichigo. Now considering Hollow Ichigo's egocentric nature, he proceeds to fulfill her wishes because that is something Ichigo had failed to do. Ichigo had failed to protect Inoue, which Hollow Ichigo takes on as a challenge to prove himself as the superior being of the two. Much like how Hollow Ichigo proceeded to decimate Byakuya just because he wanted to show the difference in his skills and power to Ichigo.

If Hollow Ichigo wanted to protect Orihime why did it attack Ishida then. The only reason why Hollow Ichigo didn't attack Orihime was because she wasn't in his way. It makes no sense to me why Hollow Ichigo would want to fulfill Orihime's wishes. If Orihime attacked Hollow Ichigo I'm pretty sure it would attack back. His Hollow form looked more like a mindless creature than one that thinks.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

2) See this post

.

so are we basing this ASSUMPTION on pure looks alone?

Because it very well could be explained that Ichigo may have somehow been able to tap into Hollow Ichigo's full power hence the reason Ichigo took on that form.

It doesn't 100% confirm it as FACT that Hollow Ichigo was indeed in full control.

[THM Nindo]

1) That is indeed true. However, whether Ichigo has what it takes to overcome a cheap trick such as Shinji's Shikai or not is a difference of opinion.

2) See this post

3) Nope. Ulquiorra only wounded him as evidenced later when Grimmjow commands Inoue to "heal" him, not "resurrect" him.

We should get a better translation.

On many of the translation, what GJ says is "Fix him", which sound a lot different to me than "Heal him".
http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-277-page-7.html

Anyway, I'm done talking to you, it's the same as talking to a brick wall, and you're not bringing anything knew to the table, always giving us the same "facts" that aren't even facts.

Eitherway... it's not like I would win anything by convincing you, you already voted for Ichigo... it's too late now.

Unfortunately, I bet a lot of blind Ichigo fans will have voted the same way...
They all have the same excuse "Ichionator this, Ichigonator that..."

[Buzz Killington]

Ichigo didn't die the first time he fought Ulq, he was very close to dying, as Grimmjow tells us, but he didn't
die

However, he also didn't die against R2 Ulq, it was his will to protect Orihime that triggered the transformation, he was completely driven by that

So the chances of him going H2 in this fight are very slim.

Aside from that, I give the match to Shinji, I can't see Ichigo adapting to Sakanade before going down

[shuha27]

Ichigo didn't die the first time he fought Ulq, he was very close to dying, as Grimmjow tells us, but he didn't
die

However, he also didn't die against R2 Ulq, it was his will to protect Orihime that triggered the transformation, he was completely driven by that

So the chances of him going H2 in this fight are very slim.

Aside from that, I give the match to Shinji, I can't see Ichigo adapting to Sakanade before going down

Now I got proof he didn't die. Thanks!

[LucyBenard]

so are we basing this ASSUMPTION on pure looks alone?

Because it very well could be explained that Ichigo may have somehow been able to tap into Hollow Ichigo's full power hence the reason Ichigo took on that form.

It doesn't 100% confirm it as FACT that Hollow Ichigo was indeed in full control.

I simply had shown the image for easy reference. But alas, if you refuse to read the chapter from which I had referenced the image, then I shall remind you - Chapter 411:

Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo: I told you if you truly want to control my power, then until I show up next time....don't go and die!


Zangetsu to Ichigo: This form [referring to Hollow Ichigo] defeated Ulquiorra.

Thus debunking your flawed theory

Also, as shown by someone else, Ichigo did not die when he first fought Ulquiorra as few of the voter have thought here.

But he did die the second time when he fought R2 Ulquiorra as confirmed by chapter 411.

---

We should get a better translation.

On many of the translation, what GJ says is "Fix him", which sound a lot different to me than "Heal him".
http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-277-page-7.html

Anyway, I'm done talking to you, it's the same as talking to a brick wall, and you're not bringing anything knew to the table, always giving us the same "facts" that aren't even facts.

Eitherway... it's not like I would win anything by convincing you, you already voted for Ichigo... it's too late now.

Unfortunately, I bet a lot of blind Ichigo fans will have voted the same way...
They all have the same excuse "Ichionator this, Ichigonator that..."

Okay, your "Ichigo died when he first fought Ulquiorra" theory has been debunked by Buzz Killington.

So much for convincing you.

[shuha27]

Also, as shown by someone else, Ichigo did not die when he first fought Ulquiorra as few of the votes have thought here.

But he did die the second time when he fought R2 Ulquiorra as confirmed by chapter 411.

The main reason why Ichigo went into his Hollow form was his need to protect Orihime. I still think he will lose. Shinji in my opinion, is too much for him. Orihime won't be around in this fight.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

I simply had shown the image for easy reference. But alas, if you refuse to read the chapter from which I had referenced the image, then I shall remind you - Chapter 411:

Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo: I told you if you truly want to control my power, then until I show up next time....don't go and die!


Zangetsu to Ichigo: This form [referring to Hollow Ichigo] defeated Ulquiorra.

Thus debunking your flawed theory

You must have missed where i've already explained that Hollow Ichigo's statement could be interpreted in many ways.

I for one think that it sounds more like a threat to kill ichigo off not to come back and take over his body should he die as you obviously think.

The FACT is nothing your trying to get across is FACT nor is it proven in the manga so it would be nice if you would not try to push it on us as fact.

The FACT is however that Ichigonator is shown to be driven by the urge to protect Orihime as proven by his chatter about protecting her.

This fact can obviously be used towards the notion that Orihime is the major factor behind this transformation.

Incase you have not figured it out yet let me say it.

It means that without Orihime being on the battle field crying for Ichigo there will most likely not be any Ichigonator form hence the reason why Ichigonator would not show up for any of these fights in this tournament including this one.

[LucyBenard]

The main reason why Ichigo went into his Hollow form was his need to protect Orihime. I still think he will lose. Shinji in my opinion, is too much for him. Orihime won't be around in this fight.

Maybe bolding it this time in red might get your attention

Chapter 411:
Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo: I told you if you truly want to control my power, then until I show up next time....don't go and die!

Hollow Ichigo yet again makes it clear that he was bound to take over Ichigo if the latter dies. End of story.

If Ichigo dies in this fight. Hollow Ichigo takes control.

---

You must have missed where i've already explained that Hollow Ichigo's statement could be interpreted in many ways.

I for one think that it sounds more like a threat to kill ichigo off not to come back and take over his body should he die as you obviously think.

The FACT is nothing your trying to get across is FACT nor is it proven in the manga so it would be nice if you would not try to push it on us as fact.

The FACT is however that Ichigonator is shown to be driven by the urge to protect Orihime as proven by his chatter about protecting her.

This fact can obviously be used towards the notion that Orihime is the major factor behind this transformation.

Incase you have not figured it out yet let me say it.

It means that without Orihime being on the battle field crying for Ichigo there will most likely not be any Ichigonator form hence the reason why Ichigonator would not show up for any of these fights in this tournament including this one.

Read above, that's a direct quote from chapter 411, when Ichigo meets Hollow Ichigo in his inner world while training to defeat Aizen.

I guess you must have still been under the impression that I was still quoting chapter 222.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Maybe bolding it this time in red might get your attention

Chapter 411:
Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo: I told you if you truly want to control my power, then until I show up next time....don't go and die!

Hollow Ichigo yet again makes it clear that he was bound to take over Ichigo if the latter dies. End of story.

If Ichigo dies in this fight. Hollow Ichigo takes control.
<hr noshade size="1">


Read above, that's a direct quote from chapter 411, when Ichigo meets Hollow Ichigo in his inner world while training.

I guess you must have still been under the impression that I was still quoting chapter 222.

Your still missing my point.

Judgeing by Ichigo's statements before going into Ichigonator form (such as saying "she is calling for me") and also judgeing by him seeing a crying Orihime before transforming and then coupled with the fact that he constatly chattered about protecting her makes it pretty darn obvious that Orihime is a much NEEDED factor to reach that form.

Without her i seriously doubt he would be able to access it.

I'd be willing to admit that Hollow Ichigo is indeed a factor aswell (obviously) but you seem to be incapable of admitting that Orihime is the driving force behind the transformationa and is thus needed to access it as currently alluded to in the manga.

Hollow Ichigo alone has not been shown to be enough.

[shuha27]

Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo: I told you if you truly want to control my power, then until I show up next time....don't go and die!

Hollow Ichigo yet again makes it clear that he was bound to take over Ichigo if the latter dies. End of story.

If Ichigo dies in this fight. Hollow Ichigo takes control.

What I'm trying to say is that his man reason for evolving was for Orihime. I get what your trying to say but even if he evolves, Sakande can counter Hollow Ichigo. Hollow Ichigo just seemed like a mindless beast and I don't think that would work best against such a ability that requires to analyze everything.