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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Wouldn't say Sho was frail. He might have looked that way because of his tall and very lean stature but don't think it was ever stated like that. Only negative comment anyone has made about Sho is that his heart was not strong enough (or weak for that matter).
Sho's fragility : http://www.mangareader.net/337-23769...apter-263.html
from just Mubyoshi.
Kokin taking Mubyoshi : http://www.mangahere.com/manga/histo...2/c401/12.html and nothing happened http://www.mangahere.com/manga/histo...2/c401/13.html
Thats not a personal opinion but fact.
I still maintain that Kano's body is fragile compared to Koukin's body. There's no reason to suggest Kano was experiencing the crippling effects of the Roar as One technique while he still was using it given that we received no indications at all that he was experiencing those weakening body effects from the time he started using it until the time the technique finally ended. I believe it's worth noting Kano was using a improved version of the technique (the technique was always a work in progress) not exactly the same one Ryuto applied in his battle with Kenichi therefore the same implications can not be used here. The way I interpret this particular case is that it was at the exact same moment Sei Dou Goui's limit was reached that Kano instantaneously finally started feeling the weakening body effects of using the technique. It was not at any time before that because Kano never made note of it nor did we the readers see any signs of visible stress on his body, so basically he didn't feel the weakening effects of using the technique until at the very end of the fight. Now Kano was only hit six times before he started feeling the weakening effects at the near end of the fight! Only six freaking times I cannot stress this enough. He was only hit once (by Mubyoshi nonetheless) after he started feeling the weakening effects! Just once people. Seven hits total in the entire fight from Kenichi to drop Kano. I remind all of you again this is how I interpreted that fight, so If you don't agree with me that's fine. However, If you look at it my way you'll see I am within my full rights to believe Kano has a fragile body compared to Koukin's body if we compare both fights.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 28, 2012 at 02:01 AM.
"No one has called or stated that Sho was frail, prove that he is."
"You prove that Sho is not frail."
I don't remember the name of this kind of fallacy, used by religious people a lot, it bases around avoiding the proof of the statement made.
I told you that Sho was at his limit due to Roar as One, Sho stated that himself in the page I showed you. I don't remember a technique that hurts the user as much as Roar as One that was described as explosions (ki) inside a bottle (body).
You are ignoring the circumstances of the Mubyoshi and then putting "fact" over it to see if I fell into it.
and in this thread we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
I am not trying to prove that Sho's body is tougher than Koukin's, I am saying that Sho is not a glassjaw. I may think that Koukin's body is sturdier than Sho's (can't prove it), but the existence of steel does not turn a rock into a marshmallow.
LECTRO VOLPI'S CULTURAL SPACE: The fallacy is called "Ad Ignorantiam" or "Burden of Proof".
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; November 28, 2012 at 06:46 PM.
OK, it violates the laws of thermodynamics!? Yeah so this idea is not held to the same rules or exceptions that apply to the real world. The Elder double jumping and flying through the air violates the Laws of Physics too, but no one seems to complain about that either right..... we forgot it's a manga where rules are broken and boundaries are pushed. I stand by my point. All my theories/ideas do not have to remain consistent with the real world seeing as this manga itself is not entirely consistent with the Laws of Science. Not a big deal man I understand your point though!
---------- Post added at 08:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------
When can we expect the next chapter?
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 28, 2012 at 11:47 PM.
You want a proof that Sho is frail.
But not willing to GIVE a proof that he isn't or that Roar as One was the reason Mubyoshi defeated him.
What are you doing ? You can ask for a proof as a reply to your opinion.
Last edited by KingOfNight; November 29, 2012 at 01:46 AM.
Sho's body was at his limit from the Roar as One, this helps my point that Myuboshi put the cherry on Sho's already damaged body.
You tell me that Sho is frail because Koukin took the same attack and continued the fight, ignoring Sho's body condition due to Roar as One (cherry picking fallacy) stated by himself in the page I have which makes actual proof for me. You are also saying that if Koukin's body is tough then Sho's body frail, another fallacy (don't remember the name) that misuses relativity.
More proof for me is the fact that no one, sans you, is calling Sho frail; so you retort to Ad Ignorantium which fails because if we put it on the scale I have more answers than you.
Saying that Roar as One does not count violates the laws of thermodynamic, this one is actually followed here: the conservation of energy.
*Say that I can run at max speed for 10 minutes, that is my limit and from start to finish I am wasting my energy and muscles on it.
*Your statement (Roar as One is not a factor despite Sho's words and the mechanism of Roar as One) says that if I run at max speed for 9 minutes with 59 seconds and then stop, since I never reached my 10 minute limit I never wasted any energy nor tired my body which is dead wrong because that would turn my body into a machine that did work without wasting energy, a clear violation of the law of conservation of energy that is impossible here and in Dragon Ball.
*Shonen/anime/ wester cartoons in general never cared about science, but this is one of the laws that even they (for common sense purpose) abide: Kenichi tired from training, Homer defeating people in boxing by tiring them out, Goku's Kaio-ken, Luffy's Gear Second, Toguro's body change, Naruto's Rasen Shuriken, Ichigo's final Getsuga Tenshou, law of equivalent trade in Full Metal Alchemist, a big etc. Are examples of this.
If you manage to win this argument, I'm going to steal your posts and present them as my own for a Nobel prize in Physics.
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; November 29, 2012 at 05:26 AM.
Mubyoshi always hade the same exact effect it had on Seigfreid : http://www.mangareader.net/337-23769...apter-263.html and http://www.mangareader.net/337-23582...hapter-76.html
The Roar as One did work him up a lot but he never said it was why he lost to that attack nor did he say it was what destroyed him. And even if assuming it was the RaO that did that to him, it make him all the more frail. Because Odin used it much longer and took more hits and it was a probably a more risky version..."probably".
So he's not only frail compared to Kokin but compared to several other members of Yomi. Beside had the RaO been REALLY that dangerous it he wouldn't be jumping so fast to block the bullets from reaching Miu and if according to you RaO increase the damage he receive, he shouldn't be making promises and talking with 3 to 4 bullets in his body.
Roar as One increases power but damages the body (the answer is here), not increases power but makes the user more vulnerable to hits. Your reading comprehension strikes again with the addition of putting words in my mouth for a fancy christmas glass.
How much lasted the fight against Ryuuto? 1 hour and Sho's fight 30 minutes? No answer?
His death is a plot device in the story.
I took your out of context page and analized it, yet you ignore all of my material:
*Has anyone stated that Sho was a glassjaw? no, they just called his heart weak. Your counter-argument? none.
*Is there a technique that damages the user's body as much as Roar as one? no answer.
*Sho stated that Roar as One put his body to the limit, yes or no? You beat around the bush with "it is never stated that Sho lost to Roar as One", when I am saying it was a clear factor but you ignore it, it is just a bubble of text and you seem to have reading comprehension problems with it.
Your answer to pretty much all is to avoid an answer.
It is time for you to concede that there is no concrete evidence that backs your "Sho is frail" accusation, you retort to Ad Ignorantiam when in the story it was stated that Sho was perfect (too perfect they said) sans the heart and a frail body is not part of "too perfect".
They bothered to discuss his weak heart but not something like "He was not someone who could take a hit"? I mean really.
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; November 29, 2012 at 08:38 PM.
No, he lasted 2 full chapters. While Sho lasted for only 1 chapter. Thats an answer like it or not is your problem.Quote:
Oh Sure lets call everything you don't like a plot device to hide the fact that you couldn't reply properly to what i said and instead answer with a rant or asking something else.Quote:
No one stated he isn't frail either, is that a proof ? No. Your argument itself is a fail. You don't need people to state something to make it obvious.Quote:
Not yet. And you didn't ask that before. And it has no connection at all to the main point of this argument.Quote:
So he stated his body reached it limits and you translated that into "any hit i take will be the end of me because Roar as One reduced my body's endurance" to suit your fantasy ? No. No ! thats not how it works. You can't use that as a proof because it's not. When Odin suffered the negative effect of RaO he didn't become frail he simply lost control of his body allowing Kenichi to land several direct attacks thus defeating him. But he was still very much awake and fine enough to save himself. That alone proves your so called "proof" is useless.Quote:
No. He didn't say that. You have nothing but a page that says Roar as One reached IT LIMITS (not HIS body reaching it's limit but you changed it to suit your opinion like everything else) and you just made it seem like you have a proof and that you've won this argument. "Roar as One limit has been reached" meaning that now it will start having negative effects on his body because it didn't before even faze him. Thats a whole different story than "My body reached it's limit" because that would mean his body has been suffering damage the whole time which is wrong. You're the one with reading comprehension problems sir.Quote:
About being perfect. Well thats true. He may have not been frail compared to normal people but he's frail, too frail compared to so many other people.
And you never answered properly.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; November 30, 2012 at 01:37 AM.
Wouldn't sho's stab against takeda actually show him to be quite deadly with the whole thrust him and can even easily pierce someone? Against takeda sho did not actually use any sort of named technique, that was merely the effect of his fingers there. Why wouldn't a technique which his master used to kill another master work for sho significantly better than a non named technique?
On another note, miu wouldn't need something as powerful as myoboshi or even kuroi nuki to win against other yomi. Kenichi is without a doubt the single most resistant disciple out there(I recall kenichi even saying his endurance is his talent). Kenichi has shown endurance to put most yomi to shame to a large degree. And even then kenichi was in a tight situation against miu during the junazad arc and actually feared that it would take miu no more than a few attacks to outright kill him before he resorted to groping her. Muu has been trained by the elder, she has actually learned fuurinji style techniques and at large has easily surpassed every foe the manga has thrown at her without even having the decency of going all out. Not to mention there is no reason whatsoever for us to think that her heart is in any way weak. Even kenichi still looks up to her strength in this particular regard, he wants to be like her....
As for sho, I maintain that the fact that kenichi needed the third level of RS to keep up with him while he was more than capable of matching koukin's moves without any level of RS at all is significant in regards as to the skill they had. Kenichi had to take his reading of the enemy to master class levels basically while against koukin, while he in fact couldn't take the reading that far, he did also not need to read that far into koukin's moves to win. Koukin was from a purely physical and perhaps even technique wise point of view kenichi's match. Kano was faster and had better techniques and only through being able to see several steps ahead of them was kenichi able to fight evenly with kano. Even if koukin had more endurance than kano, so what? Every character has different attributes, strength and differences so while koukin would have endurance and heart to his advantage kano would still have speed, ability and versatility to his advantage (experience is something in which kokin cannot possibly be kano's superior, kano had been fighting since he was a little kid, we saw the flashbacks). Obviously we can't rule out kano winning through heart alone however such a thing in the manga has the direct implication of the one winning through heart being weaker. In general terms kano at his time showed superior speed and skill than koukin.
As for Kenichi and Miu, i don't see any point in going on with it because my point was that Miu will have hell hard time against Yomi. But, every time i say this we get to the Kenichi vs Miu which is pointless 'cause again i know she is stronger. So i'll give you this argument.
You forget a major point here, Kenichi was about 5x times stronger, faster, more experienced and with better techniques against Kokin than he was against Kano-boy. Which is the reason he didn't get one-shot again like they're first battle. No, Kenichi needed every level of RS against Kokin but what you should say is HE COULDN'T use them because like you said before, Kokin badassed his way out of it. So this is actually a +1 to Kokin and -1 to Sho for not being able to counter RS. That without mentioning he needed Roar as One to keep up with Kenichi something Kokin didn't need at all, which is also something you tend to forget.Quote:
I would give Sho : Speed, skill, experience and versatility.
But, Kokin has : Strength, endurance, Durability, intelligence and heart.
If you 're talking about a battle between those two, then it'll definitely go to Kokin because he is 5-6x times stronger than Kenichi when he fought Sho and his heart is also stronger so there is nothing that Kenichi did and Kokin can't.
I don't think my post was written in a way which would required me to calm down... I never intended to have an angry tone and I am pretty sure my post does not have it.
I don't think intelligence is an area in which sho would lose. While he didn't display mind reading abilities sho showed he was a perfect fighter. Take the fight we saw of him against jihan. jihan went straight for karate's weakness and sho was able to flawlessly counter that on the spot. I don't think that the intelligence kokin displayed would be too much of an advantage in an actual fight against sho, sho was an innate fighter who had 9 more styles to work with than kokin.
Well, yeah, the RS bit does prove kokin has the stronger heart but just that. Still, heart is something completely irrelevant to actual physical capacities. Having a weak or strong heart does not make you any more or less physically powerful, fast or skilled. So yes, koukin in fact had the stronger heart, there is no question about that. Kenichi never fought evenly without RS against sho, kenichi got his ass royaly handed to him without it. This shows that kenichi was in fact much slower than kano. In turn kenichi fought evenly with koukin without RS which proves kokin and kenichi were pretty similar in terms of speed, strength and stamina. How would kenichi have fared against koukin if kenichi had been able to use the full might of RS against him, basically what kano was up against all those chapters back? Kenichi was an even match for koukin without RS. I would think that if kenichi had been able to use the full might of RS against koukin then koukin would end up on the wrong side of a beating. Kenichi defeating kano was very much like akira defeating junazad(heart over strength). Kenichi defeating kokin was more along the lines of a fight between akira and sakaki, they were actual matches for the other.