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Well, I won't argue with you anymore. I'll concede to some of your points as you've conceded to some of mine. We've both presented good arguments. However, I do have one final question. Do you honestly still believe Kano is a more superior fighter than Koukin even after everything I've said (facts, opinions etc..) to you?
---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------
Never mind I think your previous post just answered my question. I've failed you haven't been listening to what I've been saying or you simply just don't care.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 30, 2012 at 01:15 PM.
He's not a mind reader. He's a brilliant strategist and analyst. He sees through anyone in an instant, knows their weaknesses and how to use them to his advantage. While Sho is not stupid, he isn't exactly the smart type of guy but more of a happy-go-lucky. But he's still smart enough to help himself survive.Quote:
"First Guts (Heart), Second Power, Third Kung-Fu (Technique)"- Hermit\Natsu. These are what makes a martial artist and Kokin got Sho outmatched in the two most important things and is very good at the third. Saying heart is irrelevant is going against one of the main themes of this Manga. The area in which Sho outmatch Kokin in, is the irrelevant area in this Manga.Quote:
Again, Sho had to spam Roar as One to keep up with him in the third stage of RS.Quote:
First off, it's not fair at all to say "what if he used RS against Kokin", because again Kokin overwhelmed RS. It doesn't matter how you do it, what matter is that you overwhelmed RS and made it useless the, same way Sho used RaO to render it useless. It's not an advantage it's something he earned.Quote:
And again, Kenichi became stronger than he was against Sho in every concept at least 5x times to fight Kokin. If you are gonna keep saying that, then you might want to think about how Kokin one-shot the same Kenichi that defeated Sho.
Last edited by KingOfNight; November 30, 2012 at 01:06 PM.
Sho died because he took bullets for miu. It had nothing to do with smarts.
I didn't say heart as a whole was irrelevant, I said it was irrelevant in regards to physical capacities and technique. Having or not having those does not result in strength, speed, stamina or other measurable aspects of combat to increase or decrease. Heart in the context of the manga has a great effect in the sense that it can even allow through a number of plot devices to win battles against stronger opponents however it does not change that the defeated person was in fact stronger. I am not saying it is plain impossible for koukin to win against kano or that it would be plain impossible for kenichi to defeat miu. Heart does add a dimension of circumstances to take into account. Heart allows you to change the outcome of a fight even to the most unlikely result however it does not actually change who the stronger martial artist is.
Koukin did indeed have the stronger heart than sho however I do question whether he had more power and skill. Kokin was definitely the more durable one, that goes without saying. Why would we think kano had less power than koukin though? Everything he used against kenichi was a series of one hit kill shots which kenichi avoided by a very narrow margin and perhaps the more dangerous one thanks to his vest. Technique is definitely something in which kano would be superior to kokin.
RS does not affect speed, it simply allows a very deep reading of the enemy's movements. Kano tried to make up for that with his seidogyo however it didn't work and perhaps even caused more damage than good. Kenichi was every bit as slow compared to sho with RS as without it.
kokin didn't overwhelm RS, kenichi simply couldn't use the technique against him. I am not trying to take that away from kokin though, I am just making the point that RS represents a significant boost to kenichi. Kenichi fought against kano at a level which he didn't fight against kokin. With RS not working there was a huge segment of kenichi's strength which he didn't used against kokin but still won and in turn couldn't have possibly done without against kano. Kano is someone kenichi defeated through heart, not strength or kung fu. koukin is someone against whom kenichi could not hold heart over so he won through strength and kung fuu.
Yeah, kenichi and sho definitely had time to grow significantly during the time between their fights. I am not trying to say kano was stronger than what kokin would be now though, given the growth disciples have the point would be irrelevant and impossible to argue. I am just trying to make the point that at comparable points in time taking in consideration how each of them fared against kenichi sho would be the superior martial artist.
Kokin defeating kenichi the first time was highly circumstantial. If you look at the actual fight kenichi and koukin were actually pretty evenly matched. Kokin got that hit on kenichi when kokin allowed himself to get hit but kenichi didn't follow through out of concern for kokin. In turn against kano kenichi didn't hold a candle through most of the fight at all. Kokin by no means one shoted kenichi in that regard, he took advantage of the fact that kenichi wouldn't hurt someone allowing himself to get hit.
Kokin could push through Kenichi's Seikuken with only brute force, making him more physically overwhelming than Kenichi. He's also bigger and more muscular than Sho who didn't show any impressive strength feat and everything he did was based on technique.Quote:
Here then here.Quote:
He either dodged or countered RS, either way he uselessify it (yes that doesn't make any sense). So you can't say "what if...". Kenichi did need RS and used it up to stage 2 but was still useless against Kokin who didn't even care about it.
That is just wrong in many ways. First off, evenly matched. Where did you even get the notion of them being evenly matched ?Quote:
http://www.mangareader.net/337-23787...apter-281.html and http://www.mangareader.net/337-23787...apter-281.html then http://www.mangareader.net/337-23787...apter-281.html
Where can the term "evenly matched" be used in here ? Kokin wasn't even trying but still dominating Kenichi in every way and putting him on the defense the whole time. Saying evenly matched is really just being biased. Kenichi didn't hold a candle against either of them not just Sho. And look here
he was in no way willing to stop the attack or even think about doing so he was simply confused by what Kokin did. Kokin simply waited for the last second before perfectly countering the attack and killing Kenichi. I don't see anything about being evenly matched or Kenichi holding back.
Busy with college work.
Sho started Roar as one in chapter 259 to chapter 263. That's an asnwer, like it or not is not my problem.
Sho got up and took some bullets after Roar while Ryuuto fell unconscious and crippled.
I thought the limit thing was to avoid exploding because when Sho was talking about limits it was refering to his body's resistance to RAO, from start to finish he was wasting his body as RAO is not free power.
You have reading comprehensions puroburems!
Thank you! I was reading your past post and got this:
Koukin stated that Sho had everything (body included!) and that his heart (Kenichi says his heart was not weak, who knows then) was strong but not compared to his! This declaration from Koukin himself proves that Kajima included body in his "too perfect"! END Of DISCUSSION! I WON!
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; December 01, 2012 at 11:37 PM.
RS is not a technique which you dodge or counter.... RS is more of a state kenichi is in which allows him to read his enemy. What happened there is simple, kenichi misread kokin and kokin simply did something different from what kenichi expected. Still, kenichi in the end actually won against kokin without RS. That is not something he could have done against sho in any way.
I would think it is just those pages that show that kokin and kenichi were pretty close to each other. Just compare the initial stages of kenichi's fight against sho with those links. At that same stage kenichi could not even react to sho's thrust and got saved by his chain mail. Kenichi was getting pushed back at that point however he still kept his ground and kokin never actually landed a critical hit even though he was trying. Kenichi was even perfectly able to counter kokin during the fight too, something which he barely managed through most of his fight with sho. Kokin even started throwing people around at that point, something which I would argue is a bit of a cheap trick. And still, the deadly hit kokin landed on kenichi was a dirty hit for the most part, he took advantage of the fact that kenichi wouldn't attack someone who isn't fighting back. From a tactical point of view that would be brilliant on kokin's part however arguing kokin was actually the better martial artist than sho based on that is a tad different. At least when sho landed those thrusts kenichi was actually unable to see or react to them. Kenichi was perfectly capable of keeping up with kokin.
What you "thought" is what YOU THOUGHT so keep it to yourself until you made sure of it. He clearly state RaO has reached it's limit because earlier he was only using it for about 2 seconds and stop and repeat. It's only when he kept it for a long time it reached it's limit and start damaging his body. But well done, you had me there with "Sho's body reached it's limit" until i checked back a couple of times. Perhaps we both have reading comprehension problems which seems to be the only thing you can actually say.Quote:
Well the rest of you post was just more assumptions with no proof so i ignored it. Well i'm not gonna argue against what Kokin said, but, he is still frail when compared to Kokin and Ethan. See it's not too hard to settle this when you have an actual proof instead of useless physics.
He pushed it with sheer force means he is physically more powerful than Kenichi.Quote:
Maybe you're forgetting something here ? Wait let me think... Ah yes. There was barely a fight to begin with. They just exchanged a couple of punches (which seemed more evenly matched than his fight against Kokin) and then explosion, everyone's gonna die and bang RS. So you can't really judge a battle and say "without RS he didn't stand a chance" because he barely fought him without it.Quote:
Really dude ? Evenly matched means getting stomped all over the place and not even able to attack ? He managed to hit Sho several times in their battle while he couldn't even switch to attack against Kokin.Quote:
Again, Kenichi never stopped his attack he was just shocked a bit but that didn't stop him at all.Quote:
You're arguing that he didn't want to hit someone who is not on a guarding stance but, that is shown here to be completely wrong. It's obvious in the lower right panel that he is going for it, but, Kokin beautifully countered that at point blank and unlike Sho who got several hits and couldn't get things done, he actually killed him and sent him in a trauma. Throwing the bodies around is just for the lulz and to piss Kenichi off it had no effect on Kenichi nor did he actually need that, mentally attacking your opponent is also part of fighting. Whoever said it was just muscles ? And lastly, about keeping up with Kokin but not Sho. I never really argued Sho's technique or speed.
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 02, 2012 at 04:34 AM.
Pushing a seikuken does not immediately make koukin more powerful than kenichi.
Sho and kenichi did not just exchange a couple of punches. The first attack which almost killed kenichi was something which kenichi could not even see. Then the fight was reduced to kenichi barely holding to his life through most of it and avoiding attacks with a remarkably low margin. He even had to sacrifice taking a number of hits in order to avoid actually deadly hits. Nothing of what kano did through either of his fights with kenichi came close to that, the furthest he got was pushing his seikuken back a bit. In the exact same scenario where koukin just pushed kenichi's seikuken back kano just walked in and landed a series of hits which kenichi could not even see.
Kenichi was not getting stomped against koukin. Even with a pushed seikuken kenichi still kept koukin at bay. Not to mention that kenichi did manage to actually attack koukin in the fight and to that koukin actually responded by throwing people at kenichi.
What are you talking about? Kenichi clearly altogether stopped his attack, that was the entire point of kenichi being worried about koukin taking his attack and the next frame with the actual stopped fist. Koukin took a gamble on his reading of kenichi and it paid off the second in which kenichi stopped at point blank range from him. EVen if kenichi did not outright stop, one way or another kenichi did at least hesitate with his attack which is still enough for it to make all the difference.
Last edited by kkck; December 02, 2012 at 04:25 PM.
It is time for me to go now, to the Hall of Valor where people who win internet arguments gather. Maybe you'll be there later, but for now... I AM THE CHAMPION!!!!
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; December 03, 2012 at 02:14 AM.
I read in the wiki that you need to be stronger than the Seikuken user to push it. It must have been stated somewhere in the manga, i just don't know.Quote:
Kenichi WAS getting stomped. How could you be so biased ? It was clearly a more one sided battle than it was with Sho. It ended in minutes with Kenichi dead without even being able to scratch Sho. He had to go through a lot of training, learn new techniques and several preparations for the next battle and Kokin was still stronger than him. Kenichi didn't succeed in attacking Kokin he never scratched him or even bother him in the least bit. All his attacks were countered, blocked or dodged.Quote:
When they attack in slow motion they tend to to have some sort of mini-tornado around their arm. That tornado is the proof that he never stopped the attack.This is proof 1.
Proof 2. Yan Erawan is a counter attack (at least when he used it here) if Kenichi did stop his attack he would have been able to see through it but because he attacked recklessly he couldn't stop it and was killed.
Proof 3. Kenichi wasn't worried he was confused " He gave up his guard !? Even for a Yomi member if he takes this hit..." It's not like the attack would kill him...it will simply damage him and may cause him to lose. Kokin simply waited for the last second to counter it, that happen in nearly every shounen manga that involves fighting. Kenichi by no means was willing to stop the attack, your statement is false and lacks any sort of proof.
This is getting really boring, i don't even know what are we discussing anymore
If your trying to be funny then stop... it just doesn't even suit someone who is all about physics and Einstein. You should probably go to the Hall of useless physics, where people who bring physics in completely unrelated topics goQuote:
I don't even get what you are argueing about... Seriously, Shou wasn't weak. His body was stated to be close to a Master by the likes of Kensei and Akira. He was even the one standing after the fight with Kenichi. He only died due to a plot reason, while protecting Miu from damn bullets, so how come his body is fragile, when we know that the same Kenichi is a damn tank. He was at least as durable as Kenichi at that point of the manga.
About comparison between Koukin and Shou... We can't compare them, because we didn't see Koukin at the same moment we saw Shou. When Shou was alive he was the strongest in Yomi. Hence he was the leader of Yomi and the one who was meant to inherit all the techniques from One Shadow Nine Fists. After Shou's death Koukin progressed, thus at the point, when he was fighting against Kenichi, he became stronger than Shou. But it's quite logical. In this manga you are training all the time and also learn through fights. Here even several days can change your power considerably. We've seen it countless times. And we know that after Shou's death several Arcs passed, so obviously Koukin managed to become stronger. Also you should take in consideration that they have totally different styles and tactics for the fight. Shou was all about attack and dominating opponent, while Koukin was all about calculations, tactics and defense with counter attack. The later is more difficult to Kenichi as he mostly was on counter attacks in all of his fights, with maybe an exeption of the fight against Ethan, but only to some extent.
So we can't say that Shou was weak. Even now he would look quite strong, compared to most of the topdogs in Disciple class...
There is no proof at all suggesting he was the strongest Yomi when he was alive. Show me proof that he was stronger than Koukin and Kajima at the time of his death and then maybe I'll believe you. Just because he was talented enough to learn different martial arts that does not mean he was stronger than all the others disciples. That makes no sense whatsoever.
---------- Post added at 04:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------
& no one EVER said Sho was weak.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; December 04, 2012 at 04:32 PM.
Well, if he wasn't the strongest why make him the leader of Yomi? Why make him the one who will inherit the techniques of all the Masters of OSNF if he wasn't the strongest? It's the logical thing.
Also, people here did argue about Shou's body being weaker and more fragile than Koukin's, thus I wrote my opinion on this point.
But you are arguing with people with no basic knowledge in english, coherent sentences and reading comprehension and they are proud of it.
Em: "Roar as one's damage is after you reach the limit!"
Sho: "My mind and muscle structure is falling apart!"
Em: "It means that later he will be damaged!"
When Sho used the prefix "is" that is for present not "will" that is for future.
Em:"I don't know what proper interpretation has to do with anything."
Em: "I accuse Sho of being frail but won't provide any other proof than a comparison between two pages, you provide proof that he is not weak! I really don't need to back my claims and if I do it will be based on interpretations which I am pretty good at considering that I can't discern between present and future sentences."
Kajima: "Sho was perfect."
Koukin: "Sho had everything and I will specifically say that BODY was part of it."
Em: "See? you can provide proof! me? I do not have to prove my claims because they are right! And I don't know what has been stated on this manga have to do with anything, all we need is my opinion."
They have more important things to do rather than being here arguing, like going back to elementary school.
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; December 05, 2012 at 12:58 AM.