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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Oops looks like I read that chapter wrong my mistake *just looked at it again*, but even so Kano was clearly stronger than Miu seeing as he had no difficulty taking her attacks and she couldn't even hit him once, so I stand by my opinion made in an earlier post.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; April 17, 2012 at 12:05 PM.
No you said she would of got an instant kill on ken which would basically mean she could get an instant kill on anyone hes faced so far and defeated its just a dumb theory dude theres no way miu could beat kokin with 4 kicks i'm sorry i refuse to believe that. As blackreaper said matsuena is a massive troller and imo a really bad story teller a good artist but yeah a bad story teller although he gets the basic plot right its always full of holes and flaws on fortuna island almost 6 months ago to the current chapters (assuming) ken was already bloody and beaten before he even fought kano took all of his most harmful attacks and even the "roar as one" and didnt die... matsuena is either a huge troller or just a shit writer im just saying i guess he might of done it for the shock factor like omg if ken even slips up once in this fight with miu hes going to die but thats always the case with everyone of his fights im sure even if like boris, ethan, kokin got in a killing move on ken it would obviously kill him because their objective is to kill him not just to defeat him, for example the knee attack kokin used (cant remember the name) technically killed ken instantly it didnt take 4 hits so take that miu you stupid bitch lol. the only difference was in kens other fights he wasn't just defending he was fighting back so obviously its a proper fight and not a retarded one.
All that 4 kick statement made me think was yeah obviously someone that isnt holding back and is trying to kill you will do it in the most efficient way.
It was also implied that kajima viewed kokin as a worthy rival so its incredibly unlikely miu could kill him that easily imo it would take everything she had to do so.
Also renka defintely wouldnt be killed instantly by miu and she fought basically evenly with rachel stanley so it just goes to show you. I do believe miu could beat those 2 and kokin but like i said i think it would take her absolute all we've never seen a disciple easily pawn another disciple in a serious fight before aside from shou attacking shinpaku on fortuna island but imo shinpaku alliance are a few levels below yomi standard still so it makes sense (obviously with the exception of hermit)
Yep i just take that as matsuena badly timing things shou should of been the very last opponent would of been alot cooler fighting for miu and all and by the end of the manga ken would of probably been able to match hisi strength. An 'ichigo vs aizen final battle' thing would of been rad, but yeah he just did that fight way to early and made it way to unrealistic even for a manga. It was like as soon as he wrote in that ken beat shou he was like "oh fuck, then that means hes stronger than miu and if hes stronger than miu tht means he can protect her already and his pretty much defining goal is a;ready completed... Scratch that ill write in the only reason he beat kano was because of some super secret strength that doesnt make any sense at all but i write this manga so who gives a fuck i can do what i want and make so sense at all." lol
Last edited by blackmidnight; April 17, 2012 at 11:44 AM.
@Zatono I agree you should move this discussion to the hangout thread we're going off on a tangent right now *sorry*
@blackmidnight: as I've stated so many times before its sort of wearying; just because he has ascended out of the disciple-class (which is a classification of his strength relative to other characters) this does not mean that his masters are ready to declare that he is no longer their disciple (which in this circumstance is a classification of a martial artist who is still in the process of actively learning, or once learned, from those he considers his masters).
Kenichi will ALWAYS be the disciple of Akisame Koetsuji, Ma Kensei, Sakaki Shio, Apachai Hopachai, Kousaka Shigure, and Furinji Hayato even when he eventually ascends into the class of master himself because he learned from them. (Even the Invincible Superman himself is the disciple of the master who taught him... which is interesting to contemplate in and of itself.)
But he will not always remain in the disciple-class because his masters are constantly training him to be stronger. Evidence from the last 150 chapters suggests that he has begun to enter the lower levels of the expert-class.
@the Kenichi vs Miu strength debate
First up: [insert previous statements about Kenichi's inability to fight seriously against Miu] You all know the arguments they've been going on for a while.
Second: Again one of the running themes of this manga is how someone like Kenichi can defeat someone stronger than them with the strength of their convictions or whatnot. Miu is (likely) stronger than Kenichi. Kano Shou was stronger than Miu. Kenichi defeated Kano Shou. All these statements are true. He won that fight because of the strength of his heart along with the technique of Ryuusei Seikuken (which, the elder stated, is a technique one can use to defeat a much stronger opponent (duh)).
Third: as the manga already stated ones strength itself is inconsistent and even if it was strength (like speed, power, or one's techniques) is not the same as victory.
Fourth: Miu might very well be better as a martial artist than Kenichi in many ways. Like speed, utilization of her techniques, talent. And her abilities are continuing to grow. We don't specifically see her training other than her sparring with Kenichi. But then the point of this manga is Kenichi's growth (it is called History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, after all). Her growth maybe is happening off-page.
And by the way, where's the outcry when all of a sudden Takeda, Kisara, Freya, etc. got stronger with little-to-no explanation on-page as to how they got that way?
People keep on talking about inconsistencies about the plot. Personally I've never seen any.
Last edited by Deadbear; April 18, 2012 at 02:12 AM.
Freya has Danki Kugatachi who is said to be on par with Ryozanpaku, applies to Thor as well.
Do not know about Kisara, but Siegfried showed that isolated training helps a lot even without a master.
Take into account that the Eight Fists are fighting geniuses picked by Kensei. Ukita on the other hand is pretty much stable and has no considerable power-ups.
@Lectro Volpi: valid points except that aside from a brief mention every hundred chapters or so we never see them training. Maybe I should have used the word "elaboration" rather than "explanation". Miu on the other hand spars with Kenichi daily, has daily gymnastics practice (and if you don't think that helps her style just remember that she likes to jump, flip, twirl, etc while fighting), and finally she lives with SIX Super Masters. All of that combined may be all the regular training she needs.
Besides keeping Ma Kensei from feeling you up 24/7 and Apachai away from all the food sounds to me like quite a workout; don't ya think?
Last edited by Deadbear; April 18, 2012 at 02:15 AM.
Chapter is out people, thank god
---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 AM ----------
@kkck Well it makes no sense to only teach him half of seikuken when ryuusui seikuken is its complete form; if thats the case he's only learning half of the technique I see no reason why the Elder wouldn't teach him all of the technique unless it was around the time he got rejected from Ryozanpaku, in which case his training had to be stopped short.
Also, I forgot Takeda learned how to use the technique too (although inferior to Kenichi's) through unknown means.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; May 09, 2012 at 12:30 PM.
Seikuken is not a technique unique to the elder as far as we know though. Haven't we seen a number of people using seikuken up to now? Perhaps it is more common with weapon users however seikuken itself has never been called one of the 108 techniques of the elder. If I recall kano said mikumo was also an user of the technique for that matter. Kenichi might have not finished his training that time however that does not mean seikuken is actually half a technique, it is a thing on its own which works intrinsically different from ryusui seikuken.
I don't recall the manga actually saying that seikuken is one of the 108 techniques of the elder. For that matter, the seikuken article does not say seikuken is one of the 108 techniques. Seikuken creates an area which is basically under your control. Ultimately, seikuken has been used by at least 2 masters which we have no reason to believe were ever taught by the elder (shigure's dad and kagerou) and mikumo. Seikuken is plainly not one of the secret techniques, even if you read that in the fan edited wikia it is pretty much wrong about that.
Who do you guys think the rest of the masters will fight?
I thought seikuken is the standard "sphere of absolute defense" many high level fighters have whereas ryusei seikuken is elder's special brand of it?
think after however this fight ends there might come a short time of calm where no masters fight at all other than maybe in sparring with kenichi XD
btw there should be a chap this weekend still or not?
---------- Post added May 27, 2012 at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was May 19, 2012 at 11:28 PM ----------
hmpf. I had hoped to get at the least some spoiler pics to go with ma morning coffee :/ Common Hongo, HURRY
Seikuken isnt a technique from the elder however ryusuu (ryusui) seikuken is 1 of the 108 created by the elder and as kkck says fanboyhsdkwikia is very bad source of information, they've killed hongou twice and now they say jenazad is dead. Also shigure's dad knew ryusuu seikuken and I doubt a lot that the elder knows every god damn master in the world.