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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Well, if Takeda managed to become this good in such a small amount of time that now he can actually fight on par with the likes of Lugh, then if the same Tsuji trained this entire time, then he might have becoime strong enough to fight the likes of Lugh and Renka, who might be a bit weaker than actual direct Yomi disciples.
Still, I agree that there are already too many of Shimpaku Alliance's members to fight. It's really iinteresting how the author will manage it.
Renka has never shown to be weaker than yomi though. She fought rachel and seemed even and so far it seems her direct rival is miu. As it stands renka should be equal or superior to yomi members. Renka is a proven fighter against yomi, its lugh who has a shaky position so far.
Well, agreed about Renka.
My point was to show that Tsuji really has a potential to become a relevant character to the story powerwise. Still, as you mentioned before, we already have tons of Shimpaku members and they barely have any time to shine with rare exeptions like Takeda and Sieg.
---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------
So what? That is not the point at all... of course kenichi would have been against koukin stronger than what he was against sho. Sho died however how strong would he be had he lived longer? koukin was obviously not as strong as he was during the time he fought kenichi when kenichi fought kano. Even if kokin was stronger than what kano was during the DoD tournament, what exactly is the relevance of that? Comparisons only hold relevance if they are made within a comparable point in time... Would koukin have defeated kano at a comparable point in time? I honestly doubt it. Kano was effectively koukin's leader for that matter too...
here , but like you said it failed. He just wasn't able to effectively use it.
Bull shit. You're saying the time period between Kano's death and Koukin's victory over Kenichi in their first first is not credible enough to use in this particular case? As soon as Kenichi and crew came home from the D of D tournament the new semester immediately started (not surprising because we don't know long they were at the island), and the Yomi disciples entered their schools in a matter of a few weeks. I'll admit Koukin did not immediately precede to fight Kenichi, but he didn't wait a long time at all. The time period that separates Kano's death and Koukin's victory is only several weeks most likely a few months at the most. If Koukin was introduced during the D of D tournament, and we got to see him in action he wouldn't have gotten a great deal stronger in only several weeks of training (considering by all likely hood he doesn't have the same growth rate as Kenichi a talentless disciple in only two plus years of training has become strong enough to combat expert class fighters) leading up to his first fight with Kenichi at school. Koukin literally killed Kenichi (he would of certainly died if wasn't for Akisame) in a few minutes only several weeks (short amount of time period) after Kano failed to kill Kenichi at the D of D tournament. Now if there's no "relevance" in what I just stated now, I'll end the argument now because it would be pointless to continue.
Also, you're trying to say just because Kano was Koukin's leader too that's another reason for him to be effectively stronger than Koukin as well? Absurd. If that's what you think you mind as well say Kano was stronger than Kajima too even though there is no proof to backup such a claim.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 26, 2012 at 04:32 PM.
I didn't say kenichi didn't use RS during the fight, I said he never actually got to use the third level of RS. The moment he supposedly used it kenichi misread the situation and got hit. The third level of RS was never a factor here and that is huge.
I was talking about the time between the fight with kano and kenichi's final fight with koukin. Kenichi did seem to have been given enough time to fully heal his body after his fight with kano however that would indeed not be enough time for him to grow stronger.
True, kokin killed kenichi in basically a few minutes however that does nothing short of speaking against kokin though. Kenichi could barely react to kano at all through his fight with kano. Kano even got a killing hit on kenichi and kenichi could not in fact react to him. Kenichi would have effectively died if he had not been wearing his chain mail. In turn against kokin kenichi actually did manage to hold his ground before the fated killing attack. More so, kokin used a bit of a dirty trick to give kenichi that attack
Kokin didn't just walk up to kenichi and straight up murdered him. He took advantage of kenichi not going through with his attack and attacked when kenichi's guard was down. When kenichi was saved by his chain mail he plainly could not react to kano's speed. Kenichi was in turn capable of keeping up with kokin's speed at all points and in both of their fights. Kenichi needed RS just to keep up with kano, against kokin he didn't need an intrinsically deep reading of kokin to do that. Kokin said it best, kenichi manages against those stronger than him with the strength of his heart. Against kano he won because he had the skilled to do it, not like against kano where he basically pulled an akira and won through sheer determination and heart.
Several weeks or months of training make for a gargantuan difference for disciples though. Kenichi has gone from a normal weak kid to a powerful disciple in about a year and a half, that means he makes overwhelming amounts of process even by the day.... And he will continue to do that for years until he reaches even the low level master class. Just look at rimi, merely awaking her dou ki made her stronger in every regard in a extremely short amount of time.
Kano being the leader of yomi is not proof however it is something we should consider. In the end it was kano who was chosen to be the one disciple and not any of the others. It is a fact that kano was the most talented of the yomi and he was taught by all of yami. Why would it be so strange that kano was at that time the strongest yomi? He did kinda beat jihan too, we saw that much. I also doubt kano would have been thought to be the yomi with the most potential if he was not actually stronger than most of those his age or perhaps those a few years above him (we saw him as a little kid beat up someone older in a flashback). Still, by manga standards kenichi won against kano by basically pulling an akira and won through sheer determination. Kano had his doubts and feelings of captivity get in the way of his fight while kokin went to fight kenichi every bit as determined as kenichi was.
We don't know if he would of died. He would of been seriously injured if anything receiving a stab to one of his internal organs, but that does not necessarily warrant instant death in this manga you should know that considering all the horrific injuries we've seen other fighters succumb to during their fights and not die. Dirty trick or not he still accomplished his mission. I don't question his methods as long as he got the job done.
No, I said before that Kenichi was able to keep up Kano even without the use RS at the beginning of their fight. Yes, he was holding on for dear life the entire time, but he was still able to dodge the fatal attacks when he had to (except for at the beginning but Kenichi is a slow starter with average speed we know this he couldn't even properly react to Berserker at the start of their fight); Kano even made note of it at one point during the fight I believe (I don't remember the exact page). If anything just because Kenichi needed to use RS against Kano to gain the upper-hand merely suggests Kano is a faster opponent than Koukin because RS is primarily used to analyze and predict the movements of an opponent whose attacks are too fast to follow if I'm correct. That says nothing about overall strength and power.
What? Where's the skill in this??! At this point it was all about heart and determination that forced Kenichi to stand and keep fighting Koukin until the end. Koukin wasn't defeated by skill. It was by incredible will power.
Yes, a gargantuan difference for Kenichi, but not for the others disciples. It took them all of their lives to reach the certain level of strength they have attained now; while like you said it only took Kenichi one and half years to acquire his impressive power and he's already strong enough to match the lot of them. We have no reason to believe Kenichi is receiving more or superior training to that of the Yomi disciples when the Ryozanpaku masters said their training is being taken to the max as well. The growth rate is simply not the same no matter what way you look at it. Also, from what we've seen so far about the "Dou Ki awakening" it's only a once in a lifetime type thing a Dou fighter must eventually go through once they reach a certain crossroad. Rimi will most likely never receive a power-up like this again that greatly enhances all physical attributes in a such a short time period on her road to becoming a master definitely not through regular everyday extreme training she already receives from Kensei.
He never beat Jihan though..he merely negated Jihan's joint techniques by using the muscle flex technique or whatever..they stopped fighting after that. We don't know who would of won that fight. Also, just because you're extremely talented and you have a lot of potential that doesn't necessarily mean you're the strongest...don't know if you're an NBA fan but that is the equivalent of saying LeBron James is better than Kobe just because of his talent and potential which is absurd. It's all about proof and credentials.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 26, 2012 at 06:41 PM.
The attack shou landed on kenichi was powerful enough to actually get blood out of kenichi even though he was wearing a vest which the manga has already said is kinda special. The vest even protected kenichi from master class attacks at different points. The attack shou landed itself was not just anything for that matter, it was a thrust. We have seen what akira's thrusts do to people, they kill. Kenichi and shou confirm that kenichi was actually saved by the vest for that matter. In fact the technique that killed hajime is the same one shou used against kenichi. If kenichi hadn't have the vest his heart would have been pierced and not even all of akisame's sorcery and ma's voodo would have saved kenichi.
That would be just ignoring how the fight as a whole went. Koukin was not once during the fight outright superior to kenichi. Kenichi forced himself up at that point however koukin himself was every bit as beat up as kenichi was and also went on through sheer will. One way or the other the exchange between koukin and kenichi was relatively even up to the bitter end. More so, kenichi in fact won the fight with a mua thai technique which agaard hadn't taught koukin yet. Koukin was not the sort kenichi could defeat through strength of heart, koukin was someone even kajima admitted to having the stronger heart than himself. Koukin is someone who kenichi fought evenly up to the bitter end and beat through sheer skill.
And sho has all the proof and credentials. Shou is still technically the only yomi against whom kenichi has pulled an akira against. Sho had superior technique and form, he had the superior body, he had the superior talent and had the superior instincts for battle. The only aspect in which kenichi actually was superior was heart and determination (both of which were weakened because of all the suffering shou went through in yami). Kenichi had a response or technique to deal with everything ryuto could throw at him, matched boris hit for hit and defeated him with jujitsu, he matched ethan hit for hit and overpowered him with kuroi nuki and he fought his most drawn out battle ever against koukin. Sho is the only enemy kenichi has fought against whom he effectively pulled an akira. Boris even admitted he saw kenichi as his equal and ethan had nothing but respect for kenichi....
Well, considering Apachai had a hole comparable to the size of small dodge ball in his stomach, I'm going to remain skeptical about the idea of Akisame and Ma not being able to work their magic on Kenichi. There's no guarantee Kano would of hit his heart. From the angle I'm looking at it looks like Kano was aiming for the lower abdomen or his right lung. It is possible to survive those injuries. Also, you can link pictures of Akira's thrusts all you want there's still no proof that Kano's thrusts have the power to outright go completely through another's persons body. I admit we have seen incredible feats of strength from disciple class fighters, but nothing like that throughout the entire manga. Akira was master class when killed those fighters not disciple class meaning there is no evidence at all suggesting he had enough power to outright completely pierce through another person's body as an disciple in his earlier days given the massive or gargantuan or enormous power gap that separates the disciple class from master class, so why should we make an exception for an disciple class fighter like Kano who would be ridiculously weaker than a master class fighter like Akira? Yes, his hands were bloody, but Kenichi was wearing a tight chain mail vest that could easily cut the outer layers of his skin upon vicious impact it's not like he was wearing cotton here. Outright completely piercing through another's persons body has never been done before by a disciple in this manga, so I'm not going to buy into that notion. If anything his thrusts most likely had the power to pierce few inches which could be fatal but doesn't warrant instant death considering the fact bones in the human body are stronger than concrete. Furthermore, like I said before Kano still failed to eliminate Kenichi after the initial blow despite the fact that Kenichi was no longer wearing chail mail. That's Kano's fault.
How could Agaard have taught Koukin that technique? Agaard only taught Apachai the basics of a regular punch and Chai kick. It was Apachai not Agaard who spent his entire lifetime (must not have been easy for him) refining those basic technique's and turned it into something the far more powerful (no longer a regular kick or punch) to point where he able to pour every ounce of his power into a single kick or punch. It was Apachai's own original technique he taught himself, so how could Agaard have taught Koukin a technique he didn't even know how to perform himself seeing as we have never witnessed Agaard using the famous "Apapunch"? Makes no sense.
All the credentials? False! Superior form and technique? False what makes you think Muay Thai techniques are inferior to Karate techniques or any other technique belonging to some other martial arts out there? Are you a martial arts or MMA expert? How does one even determine if a technique is superior to another in the first place? A Judo fighter loses to an Aikido fighter are we supposed to assume Aikido is better than Judo now because that fighter failed to effectively apply his techniques in battle? Hell no. If anything Kano definitely has a wider variety of techniques than Koukin considering he was being trained by the entire OSNF, but that does not mean his techniques were superior to Koukin's in any way. Superior body? Complete BS. There's no evidence at all suggesting Kano can even match Koukin's tanking ability when it only took a mere 7 hits from Kenichi during the entire fight to make Kano drop and start sniffing dust. Like I said before in that battle thread Kano's body is fragile compared to Koukin's and I already proved that a long time ago. Superior talent? no argument there but that does not necessarily automatically equate to being a stronger fighter I fear. That's just like saying Dez Bryant is a better NFL receiver than Miles Austin just because he has more talent than him. Definitely not the case either. Superior Instincts? Prove it because I have no reason to believe such a thing. I would take Koukin's credited analyzing abilities over anything Kano would potentially have to offer in the mental department. I still don't understand how you believe Kano is such a superior fighter to Koukin when there's really no credible proof to back up what you're saying.
Kenichi was not matching Ethan hit for hit. The fight turned one-sided in a matter of a few minutes. Kenichi was being constantly pressured throughout the entire battle, and it even got to the point where Chikage didn't even want to watch it anymore. If wasn't for Korui Nuki Kenichi would have definitely lost the fight because Ethan was the superior opponent. He just fell victim like many others to Kenichi's one shot technique.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 27, 2012 at 12:07 AM.
Aside from that, i agree completely with BASED shinigami. Kokin one-shot the same Kenichi that defeated Kano Sho and the difference in time wasn't that much by what we have seen. In there second battle, it's true that battle was much more balanced compared to Sho vs Kenichi but thats because Kenichi was FAR FAR stronger than what he was in the D of D arc and even more experienced. Having trained so much more harder and learned more powerful techniques and his overall strength has increased a lot but even with that both Nijima and Miu considered Kokin to be much more powerful.
Who's to say that Kenichi's new skills will not allow him to easily defeat Sho ?
kkck Why do you assume this is the same Kenichi that fought Sho ?
About the Sho being superior to Kokin. Well what I've seen is Sho being superior in : skills and variety of martial arts.
But, Kokin was superior in : Physical strength, Endurance, Intelligence, Heart and maybe experience.
Sho was so frail that Mubyoshi ruined him completely while it didn't scratch Kokin at all.
As for Sho's thrust going through another person's body : http://www.mangareader.net/337-23727...apter-221.html
Hell to the NO.
Last edited by KingOfNight; November 27, 2012 at 01:50 AM.
*When Sho was defeated everyone went: "Sho was weak", but Kajima stated that Sho was perfect SANS the heart. Saying that Koukin was better than Sho in those aspects is more on the false side actually.
2 cents, 1 cent per point.
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; November 27, 2012 at 05:20 AM.
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; November 27, 2012 at 11:21 PM.