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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Odin stayed in that state much longer and was attacked more not two mention surviving an explosion as well as holding unto ledge to save his life. Before losing consciousness while Sho fell down instantly. Explain that ?
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; December 05, 2012 at 02:14 AM.
He used it for a numbered pages. He activate it and then deactivate it immediately after a few hits. He state so himself and even state that Odin used it much longer. Thats an undeniable proof, Odin used it longer according to Sho. Done.
Did he say anything that indicate Sho having a stronger or equal body ? He did say he had Heart, Body and skill. He didn't say "he is superior to me in Body, skills but not heart" . He only mentioned heart because Kenich defeated Sho through heart, but the same won't work for him. So would you stop misunderstanding what he said and change it however you like and admit that i won this argument ?
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 05, 2012 at 04:14 AM.
After being defeated Sho took bullets and threw a stone that stunned someone wearing a helmet:
The ones who did that before were Agaard and Sakaki, masters.
Did Koukin stated being better in anything other than heart? Koukin recognized Sho's body and because of that he has a better body? How does this logic work? that at the best puts you in the same situation as me and you are on the losing side, check out the evolution:
"Sho is as frail as an egg"
"He is strong compared to normal humans but frail compared to fellow Yomi"
"Sho is frail compared to Koukin and Ethan".
Are you aware that there is no solid proof that koukin's body is better than Sho's? What are the facts? Koukin's heart is stronger than Sho's, it has been stated but then Kenichi later remarked that Sho's heart was not weak so where does that put us?
I am not trying to say that Sho has more endurance than koukin, I say that Sho is not frail.
Kenichi could move and handle a sword master after facing Koukin's power and endurance but barely moved after defeating Sho.
Last edited by Lectro Volpi; December 05, 2012 at 04:47 AM.
We're on a different argument now. And thats about how frail he is compared to other Yomi. You constantly say "Did Koukin stated being better in anything other than heart? Koukin recognized Sho's body and because of that he has a better body?" but, you don't seem to understand that the topic they were talking about was Kenichi defeating people stronger than him, in which Kokin explained this was due to his heart and used Sho as an example nothing more. He never really said that Sho was superior to him in anything, he simply said that he was indeed a powerful fighter who did't lack anything but, wasn't the strongest in everything either. For example : he said he had heart but right after that he said his own heart is stronger than Sho's, so what does that mean ? It means just because he said that Sho has body, doesn't mean that Sho's body was stronger it just means it was good enough for Sho. He mentioned heart specifically because thats what the topic was about. If you don't admit that you were wrong after all that...then your just being a sore loser
And i think i'm sick of giving you proofs that his body is stronger.
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 05, 2012 at 04:36 AM.
image for it.
In short I will give you the Koukin's body is tougher than Sho's, since it was never far-fetched to begin with.
I don't remember you accepting that RAO damages while on use and not only in the limit.
Work on the reaction images.
Well, now that thats done. I'm gonna go take a nap. Have a good day...or night.
I would think that sho did indeed have the weakness of heart koukin mentioned even if kenichi disagreed. The issue here was the fact that sho was massively unhappy where he was. Given the flashbacks we saw sho was someone who was at his core extremely kind (he didn't kill the bird even when his master told him to, he couldn't fathom why that guy he defeated as a kid was being left behind, he saved the pancration team) and plainly not suited for the satsujinken. Kano was rigged with conflict to some extent. From a satsujinken perspective it would obviously seem like kano's heart was simply not strong enough to do what had to be done but had he been with the katsujinken the game would have been entirely different in regards to his heart.
Anyways, sho was not quite defeated by a single myoboshi. I do believe that he took a significant amount of damage from seidogyo (even though up to that point it really didn't seem as if he actually needed that) however he also took a number of significant hits before myoboshi. First there is this. Sho too the full blown damage of his own technique right there. Then there is this. Sho here took a barrage of unconscious kenichi's techniques, all of them basically named. Dealing with conscious kenichi is one thing but the unconscious one is a different matter altogether. Koukin kinda got lucky in that he never actually got to fight kenichi like that IMO. Sho was the one who actually fought kenichi's "true" strength. Then kano took this second blow to the head which is not insignificant in the least which was then followed by 3 other attacks to complete kenichi's RS strongest combo. Only after taking basically 90% of the techniques which kenichi has at his disposal kano actually fell and to be honest kenichi kinda lucked out when he got to conveniently fight while unconscious which for some reason has not quite been a factor against other yomi. Its borderline offensive to say kano got defeated by one hit when the reality is that defeating kano took more named techniques and plot randomness (kenichi got more lucky in that fight than in all of his other fights combined) than against any other yomi kenichi has fought since.
---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------
To put it in perspective just how significant this can be. Both of akira's disciples at this point are actually inferior to the standard yomi however through sheer determination both of them were actually able to pressure kenichi and even miu (at least until one of them laid a hand on miu and kenichi got a sanji like powerup and beat the shit out of them).
Well, in this particular case the point is being made that as far as kenichi is concerned koukin and kano are intrinsically different opponents and things won't go the same way for kenichi because how different things are weighted in the battle will be different. How exactly koukin would fare against kano is an entirely different matter. As far as applying the whole heart thing into the question it comes down to pulling of what akira did against junazad. Heart, determination, will, whatever you call it can allow you to defeat a stronger opponent against the odds. That in itself does not change who the superior martial artist was; akira did not win against junazad because he was stronger he won because of heart. Kenichi did not beat kano because he was the superior martial artist but because of the strength of his heart. Junazad was infinitely stronger than akira. Sho had superior training, technique and body to kenichi. koukin was someone against whom kenichi could not hold heart over so against kokin what he had left was strength and technique. Taking everything in consideration we simply can't properly measure how heart will end up factoring into the equation given how circumstantial it is. koukin could have the stronger heart but everything in the manga still points towards kano having been the superior martial artist at the time. Kano had the speed, he had the techniques, koukin made the point that kano had the body.... so indifferently from heart the superior and more talented martial artist was still kano, that is the reason kano was chosen as the inheritor of the 9 fists OVER koukin and literally all the other yomi, including the very disciple of the actual one shadow.
So.... would koukin win against kano? If heart is to be the determining factor then we have to start with a situation in which heart makes the difference, it depends on plot. If the plot (not actual physical circumstances such as wounds) is favorable to sho (say, defeating koukin would stop miu from falling into a pool of master class sharks) then koukin is unlikely to have a heart advantage. If the plot favors koukin in a way which pertains to his heart being the stronger one then koukin has a chance at defeating a superior martial artist. Much like how akira had a shot at junazad or kenichi defeated kano.
Koukin said Kano had the body, but he wasn't implying in any way that his own body was in fact inferior. Koukin was just praising Kano abilities while pointing out Kano's heart weakness to Kenichi. Body point invalid.
Wider variety of techniques? OK, who cares Koukin showed in is his second fight with Kenichi numerous times he's very well capable of dealing with different techniques from different styles by calmly analyzing his opponent. I can link a page showing you proof if you want one. Technique point invalid.
Speed? I'm not going to get into the RS argument again. You clearly ignored the points I made out to you before I even conceded and noted the possibility that Kano is faster than Koukin because Kenichi needed to use RS against Kano because he couldn't follow ALL of Kano's movements. He may be faster but who cares there are counter measures that can be taken against faster opponents for instance (Kenichi relying on RS/inner eye, Miu using that special technique against Rimi in their first fight). Rimi even said she could not defeat Miu despite having the superior speed in that initial bout. Speed is not all that crucial of a factor. I have no reason to assume Koukin would not have a counter measure for dealing with a faster opponent. Speed point invalid.
These factors do not make Kano superior to Koukin plain and simple. Every thing you've said to me to solidify your argument is effectively bullshit.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; December 05, 2012 at 05:00 PM.
I didn't have a body point.... I just said koukin brought up that kano had a strong body. make of that what you will. I did write earlier about how kano was not nearly as frail some made him out to be however that is a bit of a different post and point.
What exactly is invalid about the technique part I mentioned? I never questioned koukin's ability to deal with several techniques, I merely pointed out kano is objectively superior in that particular department. Kano analysing techniques... well, its indifferent.
That said, kano does not fall behind in the analysing and countering department. He countered kenichi's RS with gamaku rather fast and perfectly countered juhan's attack when juhan attacked at karate's weakness or something.
Speed point invalidated? So what, because you said that now the manga has miraculously changed and now koukin is somehow faster than kano? I didn't say it was impossible for koukin to deal with a faster opponent, I just said kano was faster. There is no point to invalidate in that particular regard unless you have your reasons to think koukin is faster than kano (although I do think the manga shows otherwise).
Bullshit? Your post basically implies that you effectively believe kano to have the superior technique and speed however somehow koukin is the superior martial artist. Heart is without a doubt important however whether it wins battles or not is highly dependent on plot and circumstances. In the context where we are simply discussing who is the superior martial artist we have neither plot nor circumstances to take in consideration so a significant part of what makes heart relevant, though definitely not all of what heart seems to include, is simply not a factor.
Lets see who wins at several departments of what fighting entails:
Heart: Koukin takes the cake however this is also extremely circumstantial and I am not entirely sure of to what degree it would apply to a discussion as this when there is no plot or context to factor heart in.
Body has several things to consider:
-Speed: Kano wins
-Strength: Apparently koukin however both of them have one hit kill techniques which would undermine this a tad.
- Endurance: Both of them had long and drawn out fights against most of what kenichi could throw at them. Koukin perhaps but not nearly approaching the huge margin which most people seem to think there is.
Technique: Kano, by a reasonably large margin. More so, kano was actually trained in the same muay boran as koukin. In comparison to kenichi koukin would be effectively less prepared to deal with kano as kenichi actually had 5 different styles to deal with sho's 10. At least against kenichi koukin had to deal with 5 styles out of which 1 of them provided only insight for kenichi (weapon counter training) so perhaps we should consider kenichi to have 4 styles....
I don't think he has "superior" techniques. I am not one to question whether a technique from one martial arts is superior than another technique from a different martial arts. I am no where near qualified enough to make an accurate judgment on such matters. When I watch the UFC or past PRIDE fights or WECF, and I see two fighters compete using different styles; I only come to the conclusion that the winner of the fight is simply the better fighter at the end of the day regardless of past achievements and credentials. However, I do not surmise that his techniques were in any way better than his opponents. After all, there are so many factors to take in consideration when it comes to fighting...is the fighter using his techniques properly...is he using them at the right moments....is he being physically dominated etc..there's a lot of factors. I have maintained the entire time during this argument that Kano has a "wider variety" of techniques which Koukin is clearly able to deal with. Also, you take in the fact although Kano has those combo techniques it's been shown IMO he primarily uses Karate most of time. I have never said Kano's techniques were superior to Koukin's nor do I believe such a thing. Superior and wider variety have entirely two different meanings.
Also, make no mistake I've been arguing this entire time that Koukin is not an inferior opponent compared to Kano. I have not argued that Koukin is a more superior than Kano (even though I believe so I think there is more credible proof suggesting they are equals than Koukin being superior). My previous posts above were to show that Koukin himself doesn't believe he is weaker opponent than Kano based upon his statements he made to Kenichi in that particular chapter. That's all.
You're mistaken. I have never said Koukin was the faster opponent. I said before that there are numerous important factors that led to Kenichi having a more balanced fight against Koukin which directly impact his performance against Koukin with and without the usage of RS. However, I'm not going to go into specifics again seeing as I've already conceded that Kano may be faster.
---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 PM ----------
I don't remember it ever being said Kano was trained in Muay Boran though...we know he received training to learn regular Muay Thai techniques but not Muay Boran. I don't think we could just make that assumption here as there is no real proof unless you have a link. Also, the nature of Muay Boran seems rather secretive, and is most likely passed from master to disciple...Kano was not Agaard's official disciple so I guess it makes sense Koukin was the only one being taught Muay Boran.
This has got to be the most drawn out argument.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; December 05, 2012 at 10:49 PM.
Well, the issue with kano in regards to whether he has an style which is actually superior to what koukin uses is murky. In regards to the manga such a thing applies very lightly to begin with taking in consideration that it already does not consider advantages and disadvantages provided by each style very seriously. Take takeda vs kenichi a while back. In an actual fair world kenichi would have mopped the floor quite easily just from muay thai considering that it is widely accepted pure boxing won't help in actual fights, boxing is made to fight specifically other boxers (and not to long ago shiba makes a reference to this by saying boxing is a gentleman's sport). Still, what we see is that takeda makes up for the disadvantages of his style through speed, footwork and implausible techniques. To boot every fighting style ends up having their counters to everything (the more idiotic example being sakaki against the spear user when sakaki said that karate has techniques to deal with weapons... suddenly the armed guy is the one at a disadvantage)... The akira vs junazad bit is perhaps the more extreme example considering the manga explicitly told us karate is weak against silat. Anyways, my point in regards to kano having better technique than koukin is not that he has a particular fighting style that is superior to muay boran. I was talking about skill, finesse, technique, as things in which kano was superior to koukin.
Now, the issue of kano having a wider variety of styles and techniques available is a different issue (although it definitely contributes to the earlier point). Kano was implied to be every bit as talented as miu who was capable of mastering a style in a matter of weeks. Kano has to his disposal the techniques which ten insane masters taught him, that is a fact and that is extremely relevant against someone like koukin who uses one style (even one as lethal as muay boran). Even kenichi started doing better against koukin once he stopped using only regular mua thai against koukin.
Kano was trained by agaard, an active muay boran user. The whole point of kano being trained by the OSNF is that he was to learn their techniques. It only makes sense kano would be trained in muay boran just as much as it would make sense he was trained in furinji style techniques (he even said miu moved like saiga), kushinada juujutsu,ancient martial arts and an omake actually shows us kano being trained in tanimoto's kung fuu. Of course, muay boran is not all that different from muay thai.... Even in real life thai is just the sporty less lethal version of boran however as far as I understand the fundamentals are the same.
Now, you say you have conceded to some points however you still say koukin can deal with all of that which is plain weird. I mean, kano ends up with wider variety of techniques, probably superior speed, greater finesse/skill (the point I was trying to make in the first paragraph -if you concede to that one).... Why couldn't kano deal with koukin's more limited array of techniques, probably inferior speed, lesser skill (again, if you concede to that one)..... It kinda sounds like the particular aspects in which kano seems superior would end up being disadvantages as kokin "can deal with that". Granted, with proper plot and circumstances heart could indeed make the difference however this discussion still has neither.