Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Serenade
I'm not actually buying the "equality" to Urahara. I agree the Kisuke is strong, but clearly not even on Shunsui's level. So of course he isn't on Aizen's level. Aizen needed to sealed slices to take down Harribel. Shunsui needed Shikai to take down Starrk. In the same time Urahara couldn't even take sealed Yami and Wondy with his Shikai. Actually his only moment to shine was when he was permited to do what he wanted with Aizen and he actually inflicted lesser damage than one Getsuga from Isshin or Yoruichi's Shunkou.

And about Yama... of course that Aizen isn't as strong as Yama. Gin's statement never contradicted it. He just said that Aizen isn't only about his Zan.

[Takahashi]

Question: does shikai increase one's SP? I was under the notion it doesn't

It releases more power from your Zan than sealed, so I'd assume there's some increase in SP.

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Raizen
I might be wrong in ammount, but I really thought it was mentioned that Shikai and Bankai increas your spiritual presure.

I'd say it's safe to assume that some of the Captains were taken with sealed sword and some with Shikai.

[ShootToKill]

I think that in Shikai and Bankai more Reiatsu is released, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to physical power - it can take the form of maintaining something like Tousen's sensory deprivation "tent" and KS' illusions, whereas with someone like Gin, it increases power as well as other abilities.

[Random101]

I'd imagine, other than the obvious abilities the shikai grants, it simply increases the power output to the blade. Ie: the blade is sharper and is harder to cut. There's no remote mention of a stat increase, so that's really the only thing that would logically be boosted.

Ignoring, again, the abilities it grants of course. Those are variable, but notably no one really has a shikai that outright increases any of their base states. Only Ichigo's bankai really does anything to the core physical attributes overall, ignoring Resurrections which are another kettle of worms entirely.

[ShootToKill]

I'm not sure that it has to make the weapon itself more powerful, I just think that it releases a quantity of Reiatsu which is translated into various abilities, some of which are not power related but consume Reiatsu nonetheless (Tousen's Bankai, Aizen and Shinji's Shikai), whereas others can transform the weapon into something more powerful, eg. Hisagi's Shikai - in which the increased Reiatsu would be devoted to changing the form of the weapon / increasing cutting power.

This is just my opinion, but I don't believe it's implied anywhere that a Bankai like Tousen's would increase the cutting power of his blade, just that more Reiatsu is released, which might all be targeted towards maintaining his Bankai special ability.

[Random101]

I get this from Ichigo's easily cuttable sealed blade to his highly resistant shikai. Of course there's precious few comparison's otherwise to be had, we've never really seen someone other than Ichigo being completely unable to cut someone with shikai but then effortlessly being able to in bankai (Ie: the don, Grimmjaw is similar but he barely even got scratches on the guy with just bankai), much less from sealed to shikai.

Hard to gauge overall without more feats from someone who isn't a variable mess, but the logic behind the assertion is there.

[AlB]

Except right after gin said that, it is shown that aizen needed to use KS in order to escape the captains. So it makes his statement about aizen's strength without KS pretty much useless lol

Not entirely useless. The guy was facing off head of Ninja Corps, arguably 3rd strongest man in Gotei 13, child prodigy and a troller like himself. Of course he would resort to his Zan, it's completely normal. Why do so many people assume that Aizen is useless without KS?
As for using KS in order to escape captains - If not for the sake of mindfuck they would get same treatment as others.

Still not enough to beat full-power batshit crazy bankaied Yama

[En Yang Ji]

Serenade
I'm not actually buying the "equality" to Urahara. I agree the Kisuke is strong, but clearly not even on Shunsui's level. So of course he isn't on Aizen's level. Aizen needed to sealed slices to take down Harribel. Shunsui needed Shikai to take down Starrk. In the same time Urahara couldn't even take sealed Yami and Wondy with his Shikai. Actually his only moment to shine was when he was permited to do what he wanted with Aizen and he actually inflicted lesser damage than one Getsuga from Isshin or Yoruichi's Shunkou.

And about Yama... of course that Aizen isn't as strong as Yama. Gin's statement never contradicted it. He just said that Aizen isn't only about his Zan.

IMO Urahara is on a higher level than Shunsui or Ukitake. He was able to block WW attack with his back turned to WW, while Ukitake was taken out in one hit, even though he was facing WW.

Also Urahara Isshin and Yoruichi were able to take on a power up Aizen for longer time than the Gotei 13 (minus Yama) even though they had only three people.

[Kazu-Sama]

If KS was instantaneous to use, easy to use, and without restriction, or in fact just quick to use, why the heck did Aizen not just KS Ichigo?
Ichigo was SS's 'Only hope', surely Aizen, if he could, would just instantly release KS and hey presto, SS is screwed...

[El Samurai Guapo]

Neither shikai nor bankai increase reiatsu.

Both are purely changes with the zanpakutou. I'm sure in bankai form it could be perceived a character has more reiatsu (because they'd be throwing out more), but actually increasing a character's reiatsu would translate to all their stats being bumped up—which we know does not happen. Sajin doesn't become any faster, stronger, better at kidou, or better at taking hits when he has his bankai out. Neither does Kaname, Byakuya, Soi Fon, Gin, Mayuri, etc. Ichigo is a partial exception because what his bankai primarily does is make Ichigo himself faster.
If it was true that shinigami gained 5-10x higher reitatsu when they use their bankai, we should have seen massive stat increases in all of the above.

Wow, imagine Aizen; he could have probably forced the entire Gotei 13 to their knees by releasing his bankai.

The 5-10x comment by Yoruichi was a guesstimate on her part. Obviously it's not going to be the same for every shinigami, and it also doesn't mean it will create a 5-10x superior version shikai either. I mean, of course certain bankais (like Kaname's) are seemingly unrelated to their respective shikai, so I take Yoruichi's words as meaning that a shinigami becomes 5-10x deadlier than they are in their shikai state. Using Kaname as an example, we can easily see how his bankai makes him far deadlier. You could also argue that Soi Fon's bankai makes her deadlier, (but of course this could depend on who she's up against)—so I take the whole 5-10x thing with a grain of salt. One thing that is for certain though is they do not get a reiatsu increase.

Now, there is a boost we know of that does increase reiatsu, and thereby all stats: hollowfication—which is why I've been stressing to you all the importance of the masks for the last two years. Look at it this way: imagine how powerful Toushirou, Kenpachi, Byakuya, and Soi Fon would be with hollow masks added to their already captain level strength. That's the level Love, Rose, Shinji, and Kensei are at.

[Hystzen]

bankai raises power by 10 not sure it that covers reiastu not sure http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...0-page-12.html

[Raizen]

Raizen
I might be wrong in ammount, but I really thought it was mentioned that Shikai and Bankai increas your spiritual presure.

I'd say it's safe to assume that some of the Captains were taken with sealed sword and some with Shikai.

I believe rose, love, lisa, and koma were taken with a sealed sword since he didn't need KS with them.

Shunsui, shinji, soifon, and hitsu were taken out by shikai powered aizen since he used KS on them

---

Not entirely useless. The guy was facing off head of Ninja Corps, arguably 3rd strongest man in Gotei 13, child prodigy and a troller like himself. Of course he would resort to his Zan, it's completely normal. Why do so many people assume that Aizen is useless without KS?
As for using KS in order to escape captains - If not for the sake of mindfuck they would get same treatment as others.

Still not enough to beat full-power batshit crazy bankaied Yama

I am not saying that aizen is useless without his KS. My point is that i believe aizen to be about shunsui's level. So with KS, he was able to take out shunsui when shunsui had his guard down.

So if yama can basically school poor shunsui, i think aizen would suffer the same fate. KS or not. And truthfully, it already happened in the manga

---

IMO Urahara is on a higher level than Shunsui or Ukitake. He was able to block WW attack with his back turned to WW, while Ukitake was taken out in one hit, even though he was facing WW.

Also Urahara Isshin and Yoruichi were able to take on a power up Aizen for longer time than the Gotei 13 (minus Yama) even though they had only three people.

Urahara doesn't have a weak spot for kids and if i remember correctly, he was hit by a bala from WW.

Ukitake has a weak spot for kids (ie the whole lilynette thing). And he was also paying attention to fura and only noticed WW for a split second before he got hit.

Aizen was going easy on urahara, youruichi, and Isshin. He did not attack, instead he let them try whatever they wanted on him. The moment he attacked, he took them all out. Furthermore, KS is a huge factor since complete hypnosis is something i consider more dangerous than Hokyoku aizen

[En Yang Ji]

I believe rose, love, lisa, and koma were taken with a sealed sword since he didn't need KS with them.

Shunsui, shinji, soifon, and hitsu were taken out by shikai powered aizen since he used KS on them
<hr noshade size="1">

I am not saying that aizen is useless without his KS. My point is that i believe aizen to be about shunsui's level. So with KS, he was able to take out shunsui when shunsui had his guard down.

So if yama can basically school poor shunsui, i think aizen would suffer the same fate. KS or not. And truthfully, it already happened in the manga
<hr noshade size="1">

Urahara doesn't have a weak spot for kids and if i remember correctly, he was hit by a bala from WW.

Ukitake has a weak spot for kids (ie the whole lilynette thing). And he was also paying attention to fura and only noticed WW for a split second before he got hit.

Aizen was going easy on urahara, youruichi, and Isshin. He did not attack, instead he let them try whatever they wanted on him. The moment he attacked, he took them all out. Furthermore, KS is a huge factor since complete hypnosis is something i consider more dangerous than Hokyoku aizen

I agree, for the most part, I just dislike it when people say stuff like this:

Shunsui needed shikai to take down Starrk. In the same time Urahara couldn't even take sealed Yami and Wondy with his Shikai. Actually his only moment to shine was when he was permited to do what he wanted with Aizen and he actually inflicted lesser damage than one Getsuga from Isshin or Yoruichi's Shunkou.

- Shunsui did beat Starrk, but it was a circumstantial win.

- Urahara was playing with Yammi. What's said in the quote above is just like saying Aizen couldn't have killed Ichigo (when Ichigo first showed up in FKT) just because he didn't.

- the battle between WW and Urahara was a short skirmish. Yammi interrupted their fight.

-Aizen may have been play around, but even at the level he was fighting at, he still was amazingly strong. Aizen would have killed them if they couldn't fight at a high level. Aizen praised them for their strength.

- Urahara doing less damage than Yoruichi and Isshin doesn't prove his attacks are weaker than Shunsui .

[Jackk]

Urahara doesn't have a weak spot for kids and if i remember correctly, he was hit by a bala from WW.

Ukitake has a weak spot for kids (ie the whole lilynette thing). And he was also paying attention to fura and only noticed WW for a split second before he got hit.

-You didn't remember correctly; Kisuke actually dodged WW's bala.

-Weak spot for kids doesn't mean you have to stay there and let the kid put a hand through your body....