Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

[Random101]

It wouldn't have made her pissed off at the betrayal for one. Keep in mind of the four people Aizen downed in an instant, three of them, Hitsugaya, Shinji, and Soifon were all pissed to hell, and Kyoraku wasn't paying attention while yelling at Hitsugaya to not flip out. Pissed off = bad news for your perception level. As those three can attest.

[En Yang Ji]

It wouldn't have made her pissed off at the betrayal for one. Keep in mind of the four people Aizen downed in an instant, three of them, Hitsugaya, Shinji, and Soifon were all pissed to hell, and Kyoraku wasn't paying attention while yelling at Hitsugaya to not flip out. Pissed off = bad news for your perception level. As those three can attest.

That would only matter if being more perceptive, effected the illusions of KS.

[Random101]

You asked how expecting it would change things. That's how. Granted I don't particularly agree, you have to be pretty hax ala Yamamoto to be able to deal with KS, meaning having massive and powerful AoE to use as well as preferably some ability to detect somehow(Which only Yamamoto really has anyway). If you can't just keep an omnidirectional assault up all the time anyway. However that's one reason it would have screwed her over, one that held true for three others he managed to down, and a forth who just wasn't paying attention.

[benelori]

This is tough...because we are not talking about some twisted plot here, this is just a fight, so I think we just need to judge what we know about the character's fighting abilities...

Creating WW? Irrelevant IMO...Aizen didn't really want to fight...that's why he created pawns...I think if he needed WW to defeat Yama, then he would've jumped in while WW was fighting, or kill Yama after...he didn't want to do that...he was still manipulating people, toying with them...
Aizen said that Yama is more powerful...in the manga, yes, because in the manga shinigami have bankai as well...so in an all out fight, Yama would've won...

But this final is not an all out fight...Yama doesn't have the techniques to kill Aizen, but Aizen has KS...he can just disappear from sight without actually running away...cast a few kidou, go for the head shot...

So in a serious fight I would vote for Aizen...on a shikai level, KS is more hax than Ryuujin Jakka, especially since Yama doesn't have preparation time...there's no going around fighting an invisible opponent, who is almost on the same level as fighting abilities go...that's just too much even for Yama

But there's the personality issue in this fight...will Aizen play around or not?
If he plays around, Yama will spank to kids ass...I mean he caught the sword once, and was about to strike...and we know that Aizen loves to play...

Or maybe Aizen will just strike really fast, stall a bit to play around, until Yama prepares the technique...

I don't know who to vote for at the moment...I have to decide if I will take the personality into account, and how does that develop...I mean Aizen showed he can be serious, too, so...

[Raizen]

If she didn't expect it, how would her expecting it have changed things? In what way specifically would her expecting an attack effect KS?

Because she would be more on guard...

[tousendrinksbleach]

Yama is ultimate Shinigami. So in every field of Shinigami Art he is the best. He is the fastest, physically strongest, has the biggest reiatsu and has the strongest Zan. Also he has so wast experience...
Even though this fight won't be easy for Yama, but still he wins this with his Shikai.

ya well the first in the league can lose to the last ... it's not always a matter of who is strongest , sometimes who is well prepared and who isnt underestimating the other can create the surprise

also as benelori said, we arent using the kubo's logic here ... aizen can stand 1 km away , cast binding spells then cast a 99 hado (perhaps he can ... but anyway just hado 90 is enough with incantation)
yama's AOE will certainely kill aizen, but don forget ... yama was intending to commit suicide and take aizen with him , the amount of flames that incapacitated him after he took the damage was just the starting of his shikai , it's more a tie than yama's win

[Raizen]

This is tough...because we are not talking about some twisted plot here, this is just a fight, so I think we just need to judge what we know about the character's fighting abilities...

Creating WW? Irrelevant IMO...Aizen didn't really want to fight...that's why he created pawns...I think if he needed WW to defeat Yama, then he would've jumped in while WW was fighting, or kill Yama after...he didn't want to do that...he was still manipulating people, toying with them...
Aizen said that Yama is more powerful...in the manga, yes, because in the manga shinigami have bankai as well...so in an all out fight, Yama would've won...

But this final is not an all out fight...Yama doesn't have the techniques to kill Aizen, but Aizen has KS...he can just disappear from sight without actually running away...cast a few kidou, go for the head shot...

So in a serious fight I would vote for Aizen...on a shikai level, KS is more hax than Ryuujin Jakka, especially since Yama doesn't have preparation time...there's no going around fighting an invisible opponent, who is almost on the same level as fighting abilities go...that's just too much even for Yama

But there's the personality issue in this fight...will Aizen play around or not?
If he plays around, Yama will spank to kids ass...I mean he caught the sword once, and was about to strike...and we know that Aizen loves to play...

Or maybe Aizen will just strike really fast, stall a bit to play around, until Yama prepares the technique...

I don't know who to vote for at the moment...I have to decide if I will take the personality into account, and how does that develop...I mean Aizen showed he can be serious, too, so...

Again, just because u think KS can do something, doesn't mean it can. Based on what u are saying, aizen could easily have just walked around SS killing people one after the other. But he didn't. Why? Because KS does not give u an auto win.

How does yama not have the power to kill aizen? Just his flame prison was enough to trap aizen. The only reason he used the nuke was to blow everything apart in order to make sure he hits aizen.

In this fight, good luck to aizen even trying to attempt to use KS. Yama strikes fast and hard

[benelori]

Again, just because u think KS can do something, doesn't mean it can. Based on what u are saying, aizen could easily have just walked around SS killing people one after the other. But he didn't. Why? Because KS does not give u an auto win.

How does yama not have the power to kill aizen? Just his flame prison was enough to trap aizen. The only reason he used the nuke was to blow everything apart in order to make sure he hits aizen.

In this fight, good luck to aizen even trying to attempt to use KS. Yama strikes fast and hard

Thinking KS can do something...U read my mind?
Anyway...I'm using manga material here...can Aizen make people disappear? Yes he can...can he make a body just with the sword? Yes he can...
Therefore he can disappear from Yama's sight...we are not talking about escaping an entire SS...just one person...

His flame prison was enough to trap Aizen...did Aizen actually try to move? Even after the prison was dispelled? And if the breath of a lowly hollow can blow away the fire...you actually think that Aizen won't escape?

Aizen is also fast enough to dodge the flame prison...he proved that so many times...

So Yama has nothing in his arsenal to kill Aizen...he has a slash, he has a prison, and he has hand to hand combat...not enough power to take out Aizen...

I don't really like these fights that actually happened in the manga in one form or the other...so much things interfere in the manga, that are not interfering now, or there is a nerf of some kind that doesn't happen, etc...

[tousendrinksbleach]

what can i say ? genius !!!
just because you think KS doesnt do a thing doesnt mean it cant

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i'm 99% sure some people would still give the win to yama agaisnt after dangai ichigo ...

[Raizen]

Thinking KS can do something...U read my mind?
Anyway...I'm using manga material here...can Aizen make people disappear? Yes he can...can he make a body just with the sword? Yes he can...
Therefore he can disappear from Yama's sight...we are not talking about escaping an entire SS...just one person...

His flame prison was enough to trap Aizen...did Aizen actually try to move? Even after the prison was dispelled? And if the breath of a lowly hollow can blow away the fire...you actually think that Aizen won't escape?

Aizen is also fast enough to dodge the flame prison...he proved that so many times...

So Yama has nothing in his arsenal to kill Aizen...he has a slash, he has a prison, and he has hand to hand combat...not enough power to take out Aizen...

With KS, we can use our imagination to come up with many scenarios.
But even then, the author and aizen knows best. Even knowing the full capabilities of his KS, he felt he still needed WW to fight yama. That is manga fact

So we are attributing aizen not moving because he wanted to stay immobile? Gin pretty implied they couldn't get out. Hollows have certain abilities. That specific hollow may have the ability to cancel out fire.

Aizen showed he was fast but whether he could dodge the fire prison is questionable.

Yama also has the techniques that split and burn allon. There is a reason why aizen feared his power

[benelori]

With KS, we can use our imagination to come up with many scenarios.
But even then, the author and aizen knows best. Even knowing the full capabilities of his KS, he felt he still needed WW to fight yama. That is manga fact

So we are attributing aizen not moving because he wanted to stay immobile? Gin pretty implied they couldn't get out. Hollows have certain abilities. That specific hollow may have the ability to cancel out fire.

Aizen showed he was fast but whether he could dodge the fire prison is questionable.

Yama also has the techniques that split and burn allon. There is a reason why aizen feared his power

That's my point and I think you missed that in my first post...I don't doubt Yama's strength over Aizen in the manga...where bankai exist, and other kidou exist, and who knows what other Ryuujin Jakka techniques etc...so if the author wants to put Yama over Aizen, by using Aizen's statements...it's good, and I believe the mangaka, because in his manga he has the liberty to develop a fight the way he wants...

But this is not a manga scenario...both of them are limited to shikai...and neither have preparation time...so circumstances are different...

About Aizen dodging...I mean c'mon...let's say he couldn't dodge because it was too fast...if he wanted to dodge it, he could've used KS to at least make Gin and Tousen disappear or something...there are soo many ways to combat such a direct attack...

Kubo said Aizen didn't dodge it...it's fine with me...because it was clear that Aizen didn't want to fight from the beginning...

Also I do think that Allon can't compare to Aizen...I mean Allon is creature born from extremities of fodder people compared to the level of this fight

PS: I'm not using my imagination when it comes to KS...I'm using memory, even if I put them in a scenario...I'm not making this stuff up...Aizen can really do these, and Yama has showed nothing to directly counter them

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Anyway...good night people...it was a fun tourney!

[zimbardo]

I see this going to Yamamoto, and not only because Aizen said that Yamamoto was stronger.
I understand that in this tournament no one knows the others powers before the fight begins, with this in mind two things pop to mind.
Firstly, Yamamoto is unlikely to fight Aizen in the way that he did before (i.e. first try to trap him in a sphere of fire so the captains can then mop up everyone else whilst he charges his auto explode). Sure Yamamoto will not have a chance to prepare for Aizen's powers, but neither will Aizen have a chance to prepare for the overwhelming power of RJ.
Secondly, it is not clear how long KS takes to cast, but even if it is super quick, Yamamoto is not a guy who likes to wait around. He more likely to take the initiative and quickly attack. Aizen on the other hand appears to be the kind of guy who likes to take his time and analyse his opponents. Now (to me at least) it is pretty obvious that the flames from RJ are pretty quick, and therefore Aizen will start this match on the defensive.
I think it will be quite hard to catch Yamamoto with KS under such conditions.
Also I am inclined to disagree with people who consider Aizen faster than Yamamoto. Nothing in the manga so far has stated as such (except perhaps where Aizen was in his evolved state).

[exacta]

Just would like everyone to remember that Aizen himself said he would lose in a direct battle with Yamamoto, which is pretty much a scenario like this. EVEN AIZEN THINKS AIZEN WOULD LOSE.

Seriously, if Aizen could vote in this poll, he would vote for Yamamoto.

[kkck]

That kinda depends on the translation though. In some he says he would be "overpowered" or in others that it is just a "might". Being overpowered is only an issue if he fights ryujin jakka head on and the might would suggest that yamamoto was basically the only captain who actually had a chance of standing up to aizen. If yama was the only plausible threat among all the captains, it would make sense for aizen to prepare specifically for that fight as he did. Aizen has always been a tactician. He was already in a position where the vizards and captains were not a threat at all as he could overpower the lot of them on his own so given what we have seen it makes perfect sense aizen would take proper precautions against the one threat he did have. It would have been borderline lazy if aizen did not take precautions against the one threat there was lol. We also have to consider good old all powerful invincible yama would rather go suicidal than fight aizen. That should be seen as something like what aizen said about yamamoto IMO.

[zimbardo]

We also have to consider good old all powerful invincible yama would rather go suicidal than fight aizen. That should be seen as something like what aizen said about yamamoto IMO.

Well, we must also consider then that this was not due to Yamamoto thinking Aizen was necessarily stronger than him - as shown by his comments here, here, here, and here. - but rather in the fact that it was the only way that he could be sure that he knew he had killed Aizen off. Knowing the properties of KS, Yamamoto he had to be sure he had Aizen, as otherwise Aizen would have been left alive to make the key.
Knowing the powers of KS, and knowing he was under its influence from the start, made Yamamoto have to carry out such a cautious attack.
As the manga has quite clearly shown that Yamamoto is more than willing to sacrifice himself (and everyone else) to carry out his duty and protect the real world.
As I stated before, not knowing the properties of KS could actually work out in Yamamoto's favour. As this will stop him having to be so cautious and instead he will be able to force Aizen on the defensive from the get go.
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On a side point - is it possible you could post (or reply with) an alternate translation for this page? I have been unable to find anything as of yet to suggest an alternative to Aizen fearing RJ's power over his own. Thanks!