Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Celebrate MH's birthday and the RETURN OF MANGA!! Start downloading, translating and scanlating manga HERE - legally!
Like us on Facebook, Follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year of MH and check out our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga: (4/14/14 - 4/20/14).
Site News: Check out our new sections: Nisekoi and Kingdom
Events: Nominate and vote for the winners in the Seinen Awards!
Translations: Gintama 490 by kewl0210

View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
168. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yamamoto

    101 60.12%
  • Aizen

    67 39.88%
Thread Closed
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 153

Thread: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

  1. #121
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Austin
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    464
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Hitsugaya's Hyoten Hyakkaso would kill himself if Hitsugaya grabbed Harribel's arm, they would both freeze to death, Hitsugaya couldn't escape because he would technically be like a Siamese twin and any attack that would kill Harribel would also kill him.

    The point is Ennetsu Jigoku, just like Hyoten Hyakkaso, is a suicidal technique under certain circumstances but these circumstances aren't valid in this fight because Yamamoto doesn't have to grab Aizen's arm and sacrifice himself.
    However, since Ichigo was in EJ's range, and Yama told him to get back, it is implied that EJ is escapable after being activated as long as Yama isn't keeping you within its range when he actually uses it. So if Yama wasn't holding on to Aizen's arm, Aizen could just Shunpo out of range, which would be especially easy if Yama didn't even know where he was.

    This is beside the point anyway, the argument I was trying to make was, since Yama decided to use EJ, which WOULD have killed him and everyone within its radius in the manga, he had no technique which didn't involve self sacrifice which he was sure would finish Aizen - if he did, he would have used it. Since Yama has no preparation time here, he will not be able to use EJ, whether it would kill him in the process or not, and none of his other Shikai techniques have the necessary combined radius and destructive power to guarantee a kill vs Aizen with KS, therefore Aizen will be able to fight without the fear of being instapwned by EJ, hence WW is not needed for Aizen to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    In FKT Yamamoto had to restrain his fire because the barrier should have been kept intact. Since Yamamoto had to restrain his fire, he had to make sure Aizen was in this restricted area, this is why he had to hold Aizen in this place by grabbing his arm. Yamamoto has no such restriction in a neutral place, there are no barriers to protect, so he can freely spread his fire, he doesn't have to be concerned about whether his fire will reach Aizen.
    It's a pretty big assumption to make that Yama could just create a sphere of flames of basically infinite radius which will find Aizen wherever he is - Yama's immensely powerful for sure, but I'm pretty sure his power has limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    In SS arc, Shunsui said Yamamoto's attacks would kill them all:

    http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...3/page015.html

    The attack would kill Shunsui and Ukitake and it would also kill other VCs and captains, who would run away when Yamamoto released his sword but running away wouldn't be enough. Shunsui and Ukitake went far away to make sure nobody would get hurt:

    http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...4/page016.html

    IMHO Shunsui and Ukitake were referring to Ennetsu Jigoku, Yamamoto's other attacks wouldn't have such a huge area of effect and we know Yamamoto's lesser attacks could be handled to some extent by Ukitake's shikai and it wouldn't kill VCs and captains who stood at a safe distance.
    Yama's attacks besides EJ undoubtedly have a huge radius of destruction, enough to kill VCs and lower, and if they were actually directed at Shunsui and Ukitake, they would be enough to kill them eventually as well - we don't even know if Ukitake's Shikai can absorb flames, I believe it was only confirmed to absorb pure Reiatsu based attacks such as ceros. I think Yama wanted to teach them both a lesson anyway, I don't believe he wished to kill them, and he certainly wouldn't use a technique like EJ which would result in much unnecessary destruction just to punish them for disobeying him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    IMHO there's a pretty good chance that Yamamoto can kill Aizen before Aizen can use KS. If Aizen uses KS, then it's all up to interpretation. I think Yamamoto can survive long enough to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku and when he uses it, it's all over.

    IMHO attacks like Black Coffin would be useless because Yamamoto would simply destroy it using his fire, so Aizen didn't bother to use such strategy against Yamamoto and created WW to do the job. Aizen didn't try to kill Yamamoto in SS arc, I think it should give a hint about what is viable against Yamamoto and what is not.
    I believe Yama needs time without having to defend againt constant attacks to prepare EJ. As I said above anyway, I believe EJ is escapable as long as you are not restrained in some way.

    Black Coffin might not work, however, a sword strike to the head works against anyone
    Last edited by ShootToKill; April 09, 2011 at 02:18 PM.

  2. #122
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Water Tribe
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,734
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    I think Ennetsu Jigoku would be enough to get past the shikai illusions, bankai would be overkill. But Aizen also has a bankai and if he uses bankai, I think Aizen can defeat Yamamoto before Yamamoto can activate Ennetsu Jigoku. In this case Yamamoto will definitely need his own bankai.

    [OFF TOPIC] I think Yamamoto's bankai is a huge black sphere which absorbs and devours everything in the vicinity, similar to a black hole in space.[/OFF TOPIC]

    In these translations, Aizen state that he is likely weaker than Yamamoto in a direct fight which doesn't involve a third party like WW. He says "I will likely lose in a direct fight but even you, the strongest, can be defeated if I don't fight you directly and use a modded arrancar that was designed specifically against you." I mean Aizen explicitly states that Yamamoto is the strongest and RJ is the strongest:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-...apter-393.html

    IMHO when Aizen says RJ is the most powerful zanpakuto, he means that, all things considered, RJ gives the best winning chances to its user. This is what "the most powerful" means. KS is, by far, the second most powerful zanpakuto, we haven't seen another ability that can likely overpower KS in combat but we haven't seen most of the bankai, so who knows?

    P.S. Is there a manga site where I can find Ju-Ni translations?


    ShootToKill,

    I think we have different views about the properties of Ennetsu Jigoku. I must admit the manga is a bit ambiguous about it but this is how I understand it:

    - Yamamoto can prepare Ennetsu Jigoku in combat, it just takes time. How much? I have no idea. Let's say "two minutes". LOL

    - Yamamoto can attack an area exponentially greater than FKT using Ennetsu Jigoku. Yes, it doesn't have an infinite radius but I think it's more than enough.

    - The problem against Aizen was that Yamamoto had to limit his fire to a certain area because there were barriers and pillars which had to be kept intact. But how would Yamamoto make sure that Aizen would get caught in this area? The only foolproof way was to bind Aizen to himself. LOL In this case Yamamoto would die too because they were practically one person.

    Fighting in FKT was to Aizen's advantage because Yamamoto's power is purely destructive but he was fighting in a fragile place. I agree that a sword strike to Yamamoto's head would kill him and anyone else, but I see some problems in the realization of this strategy. As did Aizen, this is why he made a modded-arrancar.

    I hope I make sense.
    Last edited by Miyagi; April 09, 2011 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  3. #123
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    17,649
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    ENetsu jigoku cannot destroy that large an area nor it was meant to do such a thing. If enetsu jigoku was meant to do such a thing then there really would be no reason for yamamoto to prevent the explosion to begin with. I think it is 100% certain that enetsu jugoku would have had a completely different effect had it actually been used. I personally always imagined the fire pillars enclosing on the targets and incinerating them. Anyways, we also have to consider one of the reasons for the huge explosion was because that much power was compressed within wonderweiss. I would think the huge compression of that immense power contributed to making a more violent release of the power and explosion. One way or another, we have no reason whatsoever to believe yamamoto can summon an explosion of that power on his own or at will.

  4. #124
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Austin
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    464
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    @Miyagi I see where you're coming from, but what do you think about my suggestion that EJ is escapable after being activated prior to Yama actually "implementing it"? Ichigo was within the range of EJ as I pointed out, yet Yama told him to leave, implying that one can escape from within it before it becomes "too late".

    My interpretation of EJ is that it's a last resort technique, which is implied heavily due to the sacrifice of Yama and his comrades which would result from its use. Perhaps you're correct in that Yama could make EJ's walls of flames surround a target while he remained outside, but an opponent like Aizen (and Ichigo apparently) would be able to escape it if not held there. I believe that once the walls of flame have been created, they will slowly close in on the target, becoming closer and closer together, until they meet, by which time the "density" of flames will be so great that no one can survive coming into contact with them. However, an individual wall doesn't seem to be enough to prevent an enemy from escaping. So unless Yama uses a Bakudo on an enemy, which would not work on Aizen since he wouldn't know where he was (KS), he would have to hold the enemy within the center of the flames himself, and hence die alongside his enemy.

    So summing things up, even were Yama given the time to use EJ, which I don't believe he would be, Aizen could escape it as long as Yama didn't hold him in place. You might ask - "Why then did Aizen bring WW along if he could escape from EJ so easily?" I would say:
    1) Yama's Bankai could have techniques which Aizen couldn't avoid even with KS.
    2) Aizen, although I would imagine pretty knowledgeable about RJ, would not know everything about Yama's powers, and took WW along as a get out of jail free card if anything, since he wished to leave absolutely nothing to chance.
    Last edited by ShootToKill; April 09, 2011 at 03:12 PM.

  5. #125
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Water Tribe
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,734
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    kkck,

    I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.

    I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.

  6. #126
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    17,649
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    kkck,

    I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.

    I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.
    I am making a distinction between the actual ennetsu jigoku and the power that was sealed within wonderweiss. Ennetsu jigoku was the technique yamamoto wanted to use for his suicide and aizen's death. Wonderweiss simply sealed the power that technique was going to use. Yamamoto never intended to make that explosion happen, that would be irresponsible considering it would have indeed destroyed a extremely large area. Basically, ennetsu jigoku was meant to work in a completely different way from the explosion which was released from wonderweiss head. If that was what yamamoto meant from the start then I really doubt he would have bothered stopping it.

    I also did not say wonderweiss strengthened the technique at all nor I even made the slightest allusion at him conceivably having any imaginable form of fire ability. I merely argued that one of the reasons for which the explosion was so strong was because the immense power yamamoto meant ennetsu jigoku to have was sealed in such a confined space as was wonderweiss's head. For that matter, do you even know what reiatsu is? Reiatsu means spirit pressure which is different from the reikoryo or spirit power. This manga is all about how concentrated your power is in comparison to others. Besides, reiatsu should be seen as a physical thing. It is not an object but its physical effects have been seen at every point during the manga.

  7. #127
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Austin
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    464
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    kkck,

    I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.

    I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.
    In terms of a gas, compression causes the individual particles to have much greater energy, which results on a large scale in a more forceful exit when the gas is released from its container. I think the same general principle is applied here, with Yama's flames (which consist of Reiatsu or "spirit particles" replacing a gas, although you couldn't "contain" flames like this in a small environment irl, since you'd run out of oxygen. I know we shouldn't really bring physics into Bleach but I do believe that it was implied that compression made the explosion significantly more destructive than the original attack.
    Last edited by ShootToKill; April 09, 2011 at 03:42 PM.

  8. #128
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Water Tribe
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,734
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    ShootToKill,

    IMHO EJ in FKT was escapable because it had been limited to a small area. All Ichigo had to do was to stay the hell out of this area. (pun intended ) Aizen could also avoid it if Yamamoto hadn't been holding him. I presume, under normal circumstances, it's much harder to escape from it because Yamamoto will spread the fire to a much larger area which, judging by WW's explosion, may be much larger than FKT. IMHO Yamamoto can effectively target everywhere, in or out of the fire pillars.

    Your interpretation also makes sense, the fire pillars closing in on the target, similar to Hitsugaya's Ice Prison but in a much wider scale. In this case, Yamamoto has to trap his target inside. Once the target is trapped, I don't think there's a viable way of going out, the fire, just like Jokaku Enjo, will be hot enough to incinerate anything that touches it. But as you said, the target can escape before the technique is activated, just like Ichigo.

    We don't know what Yamamoto's bankai is but if I were Aizen, I would think Yamamoto's bankai was unusable in FKT due to its immense destructive power which would likely do more harm than good. IMHO Aizen thought that RJ was still dangerous in its shikai state and he made WW as a failsafe. Considering that Yamamoto had Ennetsu Jigoku, Aizen was right.

    If Ennetsu Jigoku can't be used or it fails, then we may see something similar to Kenpachi vs Tousen. Yamamoto will try to catch Aizen, similar to what he did in the manga, and cut Aizen's sword arm off. Can Yamamoto do that? Doubtful. Aizen will be more careful this time because he won't have hougyoku in his chest and he won't have WW. I think Yamamoto's stamina may be the decisive factor in such a fight and Aizen can gradually exhaust him and stab him in the head when Yamamoto is too tired to dodge or use his fire to protect himself.

  9. #129
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Country
    Canada
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,050
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Sure.

    If there's no way to dodge KS and if Aizen could kill Yamamoto by stabbing him in the head, Aizen wouldn't bother to make a modded arrancar to defeat Yamamoto, he would go ahead and stab Yamamoto in the head, killing him. Actually he would kill Yamamoto when he was still a captain in SS.
    We have to keep in mind that the story always comes first. It wouldn't make sense to have Yama die in such a way, he'd been hyped up so much that giving him the Tousen treatment would just irritate people. That, and Kubo doesn't kill good guys, no matter how severe the injury. Hiyori got cut in half, Mayuri had his chest blown out except for perhaps a couple inches of flesh somehow holding up the top half of his body. Kubo killing off the CC without an impressive showing is just a bad decision. WW was the perfect way to do so, without allowing Yama and Aizen to actually fight.

    Saying Aizen didn't go for a head shot because he couldn't doesn't make sense, because TONS of other characters have had perfect opportunities to do so and did not. It simply makes fights boring, and it's why they're so rare.

    Quote Quote:
    Thus we can conclude that such a scenario isn't feasible and it takes a bit more effort to defeat Yamamoto. More effort means that Aizen's opponent should be capable of dodging when Aizen is about to attack. It seems that whenever Aizen is about to attack someone, his illusions get dispelled, giving ample time to a sufficiently fast opponent.
    I really doubt it's a requirement. When Halibel stabbed him, he stabbed her back before dispelling the image, when Hinamori got stabbed, there was no indication of any kind. I don't see a reason to believe that KS is ONLY a better Kage Bunshin. Yes, he primarily uses sight, but he's also used sound when Hitsu and Halibel stabbed him. He also used touch, obviously, or Halibel would have felt that her sword didn't contact anything. The only thing he hasn't used is smell and taste, and unless you simply want to irritate someone, there's no need to. We've seen proof of usage of the senses that matter, so I can't believe that you can find an opening through sight.

    Quote Quote:
    These descriptions are mostly used to make these abilities seem more frightening than they already are. I mean, look at this:

    http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...6/page007.html

    In theory, Yamamoto's sword immediately incinerates whatever it touches but I don't think it's the case in practice. IMHO Aizen's actions provide us with the evidence that KS is unable to do most of the things people say KS can do. I believe KS is an extended version of Naruto's Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, this is why Aizen said Yamamoto would likely overpower him in combat because Yamamoto could indeed likely overpower Aizen in combat.
    Two very different descriptions though. Yama's is emphasis to it's raw elemental power. Aizen's is just a simple explanation of its mechanics, and we've seen proof of it.
    Last edited by Takahashi; April 09, 2011 at 04:04 PM.

  10. #130
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Water Tribe
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,734
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.

    I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.

  11. #131
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Austin
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    464
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.

    I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.
    Yeah, irl an external force would be required to cause the compression, hence providing the extra energy. However, Bleach isn't really a physics based manga so we just have to suspend belief on some of these things. Having said this, irl you can't compress something without it receiving extra energy, and I believe that this is what was implied in Bleach as well. I guess WW's release might have been what was supposed to provide this "missing" energy to compress Yama's flames. After all, we know WW was no joke, his Reiatsu was immense despite the apparent ease with which Yama defeated him. But as I said, Bleach doesn't try to follow physics particularly, so we shouldn't try and interpret anything which seems to disobey the laws of physics, just accept it I still feel the intent was, however the compression was caused, that it would cause a huge explosion of greater destructive power than Yama's original attack. But then again, who knows?

  12. #132
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Water Tribe
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,734
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Takahashi,

    If Kubo didn't kill Yamamoto in the stated way to save him from embarrassment, it's Kubo's fault that he misled us. LOL On top of that, Kubo made Aizen say that Yamamoto was the strongest and he would likely defeat him in combat. This is my humble opinion but I believe Kubo has never intended for Aizen to be able to stab people in the head, killing any person in a simple manner regardless of his strength.

    I think Aizen's opponents have the means to defend themselves provided that they have enough speed and strength. Aizen can exhaust Yamamoto and then stab him in the head, I can understand that. But if Aizen's KS is indeed so hax that there's no defense to stabbing someone in the head, then Kubo has to rewrite the story because it doesn't make sense in its current form.


    ShootToKill,

    Yes, it's impossible to know how much energy WW added to the explosion, if at all. This is the good part of having a discussion, looking at the same material but seeing entirely different things. I don't think Bleach or any other manga follows the rules of physics, so anything is possible. If we ever see Ennetsu Jigoku again, it will clarify many ambiguous points.

    Anyway, I've gotta go for now, it was nice having a discussion with you guys.
    Last edited by Miyagi; April 09, 2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #133
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Country
    Canada
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,050
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Takahashi,

    If Kubo didn't kill Yamamoto in the stated way to save him from embarrassment, it's Kubo's fault that he misled us. LOL On top of that, Kubo made Aizen say that Yamamoto was the strongest and he would likely defeat him in combat. This is my humble opinion but I believe Kubo has never intended for Aizen to be able to stab people in the head, killing any person in a simple manner regardless of his strength.
    Yamamoto is indeed the strongest. But being the strongest doesn't mean an automatic win in a fight. But you're right, Kubo never intended for Aizen to simply stab people in the head. Because he doesn't kill good guys, and when a bad guy has a cheap ability, they will ALWAYS be beaten because of their personality. It's standard stuff. Look at Barragan, if he didn't stand around an cackle and just threw Respira everywhere, he's next to unstoppable. If Aizen had used KS on Urahara, or Ichigo, he would have won. I've said it a lot, there's a very obvious reason that Kubo DIDN'T make a hole in KS's ability and instead just made Aizen stupid enough to not use it. If there were limitations like you were suggesting, it would have been shown at some point before he was beaten.

    Quote Quote:
    I think Aizen's opponents have the means to defend themselves provided that they have enough speed and strength. Aizen can exhaust Yamamoto and then stab him in the head, I can understand that. But if Aizen's KS is indeed so hax that there's no defense to stabbing someone in the head, then Kubo has to rewrite the story because it doesn't make sense in its current form.
    It makes perfect sense. Kubo is restricted by his story. Hell, look at any story, how many times does that bad guy lose when he could EASILY win, but he decides to monologue or something and give the good guy time to kill him? It happens constantly. Same thing with KS. Logically, he could head shot everyone without them even knowing about it, as realistic as it would be, it's bad writing. Just because Aizen doesn't head shot people doesn't mean he's incapable, he's simply bound by what is or isn't allowed to happen.

    In this tournament, we should be tossing aside the plot induced stupidity that hold back the cheapest characters.

  14. Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked this post
  15. #134
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    663
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
    Yamamoto is indeed the strongest. But being the strongest doesn't mean an automatic win in a fight. But you're right, Kubo never intended for Aizen to simply stab people in the head. Because he doesn't kill good guys, and when a bad guy has a cheap ability, they will ALWAYS be beaten because of their personality. It's standard stuff. Look at Barragan, if he didn't stand around an cackle and just threw Respira everywhere, he's next to unstoppable. If Aizen had used KS on Urahara, or Ichigo, he would have won. I've said it a lot, there's a very obvious reason that Kubo DIDN'T make a hole in KS's ability and instead just made Aizen stupid enough to not use it. If there were limitations like you were suggesting, it would have been shown at some point before he was beaten.



    It makes perfect sense. Kubo is restricted by his story. Hell, look at any story, how many times does that bad guy lose when he could EASILY win, but he decides to monologue or something and give the good guy time to kill him? It happens constantly. Same thing with KS. Logically, he could head shot everyone without them even knowing about it, as realistic as it would be, it's bad writing. Just because Aizen doesn't head shot people doesn't mean he's incapable, he's simply bound by what is or isn't allowed to happen.

    In this tournament, we should be tossing aside the plot induced stupidity that hold back the cheapest characters.
    Aizen ability is good, real good in Bleachverse. There are ways Kubo could have made the characters get around it, I thought of a few thats why I figured the bankai would have removed whatever weakness the shikai had.

    Real broken abilities are Gold Experience Requiem and Knocking on Heaven's Door from Jojo's bizarre adventure, those powers are really broken...as well as most omega level mutants from the Marvelverse, but I digress.

    Yama's type of strongest though is good. Barragon's ability would beat most opponents hands down simply for the fact that its so deadly and Soifon ( one of the fastest) couldn't dodge it, likely its very hard to dodge ( you know, next to impossible save for probably Aizen, Yama, FG Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo ( the one that trashed) Ulq etc.

    Yama's has an elemental zanpakuto thats highly destructive and capable of Aoe attacks, barring an immunity to fire these things alone make him capable of killing any opponent, likely having the highest base stats in every area doesn't hurt either. I could see him killing Barragon fast and easy. Now if Kenpachi was the strongest, simply with just sheer raw power theres no way he could beat Barragon in more scenarios.

    Aizen has access to KS, thats great. Means that there are some scenarios that he could get wins but Yama wins more and in the end you just have to go with the old dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.

    I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.
    Law of Conservation of Energy or the first law of thermodynamics, states that energy cannot be created or destroyed but can be changed from one form to another by transducers (simplified)

  16. #135
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Deicide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Norway
    Country
    Norway
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    46
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni vs Aizen Sōsuke

    Yamamoto takes this.
    Aizen admitted his inferiority to Yamamoto, and it's also supported by the fact that he went through the trouble modifying Wonderweiss.

Thread Closed
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts