Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

[Jorge D. Dragon]

ShootToKill

In your example you assume Shinji will come in to attack, then just stand there and not block if Shunsui does get lucky enough to swing his sword in the right direction.

But if Shinji won't attack Shunsui won't loose or will just use his Shikai and that will benefit even better for Shunsui.

Where do you get "obviously weaker" from? Where were they compared? With regard to his speed being superior to Love and Rose's, here Shinji, Love and Rose are sent on a search party at the same time, and here Shinji is first on the scene, from which one would conclude that he is the fastest.

The first page just shows that Shinji ran towards the place, cause he wanted to protect Hiori, while two other Captains were just walking, so when they sensed the skirmish they came to the help quicker than they wanted.
The second picture also doesn't imply that Shinji is faster, cause he just ran cause he wanted to safe Hiori. The first page showed Captains walking calmly, so it doesn't actually show any better skills for Shinji.
While in FKT we saw Love and Kensei crushing Menos Grande's heads with bare hands while masked. Shinji never showed anything like this.

What about the Tousen example? Shinji dodged him, Grimmjow didn't, so this shows Shinji's reflexes > Grimmjow's. And during their fight, do you seriously think Shinji was in trouble? He was relaxed the whole way through.

I answered this also. Of course Shinji dodged, cause he felt spiritual presure from a Captain level opponent behind him that try to attack him. And he barely made it, cause Tousen got him, even though he didn't manage to land a clear hit.
At the same moment Grimjow could have taken out his sword, but Aizen told him not to use it or he wouldn't forgive him and in that moment Tousen choped his hand and used some Kidou. These situations were entirely different.

Of course Shinji was relaxed, cause Grim was half dead. He was trying to kick tpractically dead opponent. But he would have troubles if Grim released.

[AlB]

WHUHHHHHHH?????? when did we find this out?

Don't mind Lucy, I think that's freshseth with another account, The similarities are just spectacular!

Haha, joking!

Anyway, Shinji wins this. El Samurai, Kckk and others have already perfectly summed up why Shinji would win. All I have to add is that Grim, as per Jorge's remark, was not practically dead. He was just weared down by Ichigo's attacks. And remember what Shinji did to him afterwards, with a lowly cero that is. Cero, that, if fired once, can't do shit to any opponent above leutenant level and Luppi.

[ShootToKill]

The first page just shows that Shinji ran towards the place, cause he wanted to protect Hiori, while two other Captains were just walking, so when they sensed the skirmish they came to the help quicker than they wanted.

Where do you get that they were walking from? They were all going as fast as they could, and Shinji arrived considerably before the others.

The second picture also doesn't imply that Shinji is faster, cause he just ran cause he wanted to safe Hiori. The first page showed Captains walking calmly, so it doesn't actually show any better skills for Shinji.

They weren't walking on the first page, they were standing with the other Captains when Yama told them to search for Kensei etc. If you look here you can see the other Captains running to the scene.

While in FKT we saw Love and Kensei crushing Menos Grande's heads with bare hands while masked. Shinji never showed anything like this.

Menos Grande are nothing - feats involving killing them aren't really feats

I answered this also. Of course Shinji dodged, cause he felt spiritual presure from a Captain level opponent behind him that try to attack him. And he barely made it, cause Tousen got him, even though he didn't manage to land a clear hit.
At the same moment Grimjow could have taken out his sword, but Aizen told him not to use it or he wouldn't forgive him and in that moment Tousen choped his hand and used some Kidou. These situations were entirely different.

The fact remains that Shinji dodged, and Grimm didn't.

[Jorge D. Dragon]

ShootToKill

Where do you get that they were walking from? They were all going as fast as they could, and Shinji arrived considerably before the others.

On this page: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...2/page007.html you can clearly see that Love and Rose didn't go anywhere. They are still there. So actually Shinji ran and they calmly walked for the place.

They weren't walking on the first page, they were standing with the other Captains when Yama told them to search for Kensei etc. If you look here you can see the other Captains running to the scene.

I posted above the link that they were not running from the begining. They only began running when they sensed that some skirmish is going on where Shinji and Hiori are.

Menos Grande are nothing - feats involving killing them aren't really feats

So Shinji has even lower fits, cause he didn't even do this. He is the Vaizard that has the lowest fits actually accroding the manga. We can only think what level he stands on.

The fact remains that Shinji dodged, and Grimm didn't.

Ok, the fact remains that Shinji's Shikai was trashed from get-go.

[ShootToKill]

ShootToKill

On this page: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...2/page007.html you can clearly see that Love and Rose didn't go anywhere. They are still there. So actually Shinji ran and they calmly walked for the place.

That's pretty flimsy evidence - Shinji could be right next to them for all we know. This was literally a few seconds after they were given their orders, they won't have got very far in that time It's conjecture that Shinji ran and they walked - it makes sense that they would all run since they were in an emergency situation.

I posted above the link that they were not running from the begining. They only began running when they sensed that some skirmish is going on where Shinji and Hiori are.

This is conjecture

So Shinji has even lower fits, cause he didn't even do this. He is the Vaizard that has the lowest fits actually accroding the manga. We can only think what level he stands on.

I would say that killing Menos counts as a non-feat, so as far as feats are concerned Shinji and the others are on the same level, but I still believe that my above example shows that Shinji has superior speed.

[Jorge D. Dragon]

ShootToKill

That's pretty flimsy evidence - Shinji could be right next to them for all we know. This was literally a few seconds after they were given their orders, they won't have got very far in that time It's conjecture that Shinji ran and they walked - it makes sense that they would all run since they were in an emergency situation.

I know that it isn't great evidence. But still it's an evidence from the manga. Actually to be able to speak about Shinji's speed I would like to see him using it in an actual fight and he didn't show much of it in real battles.

I would say that killing Menos counts as a non-feat, so as far as feats are concerned Shinji and the others are on the same level, but I still believe that my above example shows that Shinji has superior speed.

I'd say killing Menos with your fists even with Mask on counts as a fit of a physical power, cause even with Mask there are not that many persons who can do as much.
It would be better to see Shinji actually in a serious fight in the manga when he has a strong oppoinent that isn't half-dead and is going to fight at full power against him. But he didn't have such a fight exept the fight against Aizen. Where he lost right from the get-go.

[Miyagi]

I'm a Shunsui fan and I'll be a tad biased towards Shunsui but I must admit Shinji and Aizen are the worst opponents for Shunsui because they alter Shunsui's perception, hampering his ability to play the games effectively.

I believe base Shunsui is stronger than base Shinji, IIRC Shinji couldn't overpower Gin when they fought with their sealed swords. I don't mean Gin is weak but IMHO Shinji's shikai ability is the core aspect of his power.

Shinji also has a mask which makes things even harder for Shunsui but the manga, perhaps deliberately, did a bad job at portraying the extent of hollow abilities in a regular fight. Especially Shinji, for unknown reasons, barely used his mask, it would help greatly if he used his hollow powers against Aizen.

Anyway, I must admit I've never fully understood Shinji's ability. I think Shunsui's best bet is to fight on the ground, otherwise playing Takaoni will be a tad dangerous. LOL Shunsui definitely needs all his games to stand a chance, there's no bankai he can use if his zanpakuto is not in the mood. Shunsui is the kind of guy who can put his girls in the mood though.

Now if they're on the ground, Shunsui needs to understand the direction Shinji is attacking from, use Bushogoma to restrain Shinji and then use Kageoni to stab him in the chest. Of course, it's easier said than done but if Shunsui's plan works, Shinji may be in trouble.

If all else fails, Shunsui will use Irooni, let Shinji attack him, figure out Shinji's correct location when Shinji cuts him, take off his haori and cut him down before Shinji realizes something is amiss after his attack fails.

IMHO Shunsui's hax, the rules of the games, is much harder to figure out than Shinji's hax which inverts Shunsui's sight. Figuring out Shinji's ability in no way grants a win but Shunsui will have a bit of an edge when they're both trying to understand what the other is capable of.

[Goral]

(...) Shinji really said that he wouldn't hold back. (...)

I've checked three different scanlations with different translations. In Ju-ni version it was "You seem strong so I can't take it easy on you". In Maximum7 version: "I won't be going easy on you". Only in the third version I've found it said "I won't hold back". And personally I trust more groups that have a good reputation (like Ju-ni and M7) than a no-name one. And even though the difference is subtle it changes things because "not going easy" doesn't mean "going all out". And really, as ShootToKill has noticed (seriously, read his arguments again) it doesn't really matter since every logically thinking person (in a situation Shinji was in) wouldn't want to only tap his opponent but at least seriously injure him and cero while being in hollow form was perfect for that. Cero wasn't Shinji's strongest attack but it was enough to take Grimmjow out of the game instantly and that was what Shinji was aiming for.

Besides, going by your, LucyBenard and others reasoning Yama really wanted to kill Shunsui and Ukitake when he told them he won't hold back which is absurd. If Yama really wouldn't hold back (and by that I mean he would go all out) he would kill them and destroy whole soul society.

(...)
Also it isn't as Yama knows everything, but it is like Kubo speaks trough Yama and states facts.

Oh, right. So you think Yama was going all out because what he says is absolute truth, lol.

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Goral
You didn't get my point. Shinji used his strongest attack (actually his only attack, but still) against half-dead and one-handed opponent and even though he couldn't take him down. That's why I tried to say that Shinji actually isn't as strong as people try to point. It's not necesary to look in different translations. The answer is simplier.

Oh, right. So you think Yama was going all out because what he says is absolute truth, lol.

In fact we don't know actually anything about that fight. Yama only wanted to imply that he wanted to punish them, while the fight actually didn't occur practically. He released, but then they got info on Aizen, so it was a little skirmish at best. And also he wasn't fighting against some children, but he was fighting against two strongest Captains of that time aside from Yama and Unohana.

[El Samurai Guapo]

Goral
You didn't get my point. Shinji used his strongest attack (actually his only attack, but still) against half-dead and one-handed opponent and even though he couldn't take him down. That's why I tried to say that Shinji actually isn't as strong as people try to point. It's not necesary to look in different translations. The answer is simplier.

And that's a very poor reason. Basically you're saying: because Shinji failed to one-shot an espada with a ranged attack that didn't even fully connect, he's not strong. That's beyond dumb. For starters, whatever damage Shinji did do with cero (which was quite a bit; more than Ichigo's BGTs that's for sure) is definitely better than Shunsui's ranged attack by damn a long-shot. That's really the only valid comparison to make from the Shinji/Grimmjow interaction (that Shinji's got a better ranged attack than Shunsui).

While I'm at it, Grimmjow was definitely not half-dead like you and Lucy keep insisting.
This doesn't look like "half-dead" to me: http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-11...apter-235.html
In fact the wounds Ichigo gave him were superficial at best. If he was half dead then explain why was he still sealed and beating the shit out of bankai Ichigo and about to blow off Rukia's head? He was dominating those two without even releasing (i.e. not even serious yet), whereas Shinji forced him to release after a single, partially deflected attack. You personally don't find that impressive? Okay fine, but to argue the opposite is literally insane; there was nothing unimpressive at all about Shinji's performance. In fact most reader's back then understood Kubo's message—that Shinji was far above Grimmjow—very well.

And the whole one-arm thing... Just stop; that makes no difference in his defense or hierro.

[Raizen]

Shunsui wins.

People put too much faith into shinji's shikai. His shikai is nothing more than an optical illusion. Hence, as aizen stated, it is nothing but a child's game.
I find it funny people cling to shinji's statement that sakanade is impossible to counter but disregard statements by other characters about their own skills (ie soifon is faster than youruichi, zomarri has the fastest sonido, yammi saying he is the strongest, etc). This is all because shinji is popular.

Shunsui being able to fight with 2 blades would be able to counter and block twice as well. Not to mention, his speed and reflexes are very fast. Countering sakanade would take some use to, but shunsui already displayed he is quite resilient.

Furthermore, shunsui is smart and calculative while shinji is a moron. Shunsui will go for the kill and won't be underestimating his enemy. While shinji is well... a retard

[Hystzen]

Now let us assume that Shinji managed to get Shunsui under the optical illusion:

Shunsui will instantly realize that he has been put under an optical illusion since the world will be reversed. He'll then Shunpo around (he is faster than Shinji could ever hope to be) and thus, figure out the inversion rules, etc.

wait what...even aizen didnt figure it out straight away he took 2 cuts to figure out how to counter it..now you saying shunsui figures it out straight away...when was shunsui smarter then Aizen

---

Furthermore, shunsui is smart and calculative while shinji is a moron. Shunsui will go for the kill and won't be underestimating his enemy. While shinji is well... a retard

i would not go far call shinji a retard..he acted to cocky in FKT yeah but he still was one of few captains who knew Aizen was not who he acted to be in TBTP ...he even managed to keep his skills secret from him. Aizen was even impressed with him knowing that he was been followed by him so i would not call him a retard

[vizardichigo]

Tough but definitely Shinji...I have said before, Sakanade is inferior only to RJ and KS. Apart from those two zan, Sakanade is definitely the most terrifying ability after those two. Both of these shikai requires that you strike the opponent at close range...The difference is that with Shunsui's shikai the opponent has an equal chance of winning, with Shinji's they are screwed. I have also said many times that it is impossible to fight against Sakanade and completely counter it unless your Aizen. Someone cant fight having their sense reversed while they are being constantly attacked. Even if you manage to counter 9 times out of 10, 1 time your body will react on instinct and you will get hit. Aizen countered because of KS and plot reasons Shunsui however has neither to aid him. Shinji's ability is so messed up that it trumps the fact that Shunsui is probably stronger, faster and a better swordsman because that wont matter.

Samurai Guapo also pointed out a few battles ago that Sakanade's effects are lomg lasting like KS...Basically he can activate the reverse world and anytime it looks like Shunsui is getting used to it he can then stop to throw him off. So he can switch between the reverse world and fighting normally any time he wants, that would be even more difficult to get used to. Lastly it also seems as if Shinji can control which directions he wants to inverse. So he can reverse left and right and attack, then he can turn it off and attack, then he can inverse up and down and attack, then turn it off and attack, then inverse back and front and attack, then turn it off and attack, then inverse all directions and attack, then turn it off and attack etc etc etc...The possibilities are almost endless....Shunsui is the better fighter but Sakanade is just too much for anyone without ranged powerful attacks ie Yama, Barragan, Starrk and someone with a stronger ability to control the sense ie Aizen....So soley because of Sakanade, Shinji wins but i still believe Shunsui is the superior shinigami..

[Raizen]

i would not go far call shinji a retard..he acted to cocky in FKT yeah but he still was one of few captains who knew Aizen was not who he acted to be in TBTP ...he even managed to keep his skills secret from him. Aizen was even impressed with him knowing that he was been followed by him so i would not call him a retard

He also spent the most time with aizen. And keeping your skills from your subordinate is not hard now is it?
He spent 100 years trying to get revenge on aizen and yet couldn't come up with a single plan. Then he tries to attack aizen without his mask only to get hit by lackey tousen

[shaheer]

i think Without mask they are equal, i might say kyoraku is stronger but with the mask definitely shinji
only guys who can possibly defeat shinji is aizen isshin and yama
or so i think