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I don't think shinji using his mask against grimmjow means anything. For one thing, even without mask shinji showed he could keep up with grimmjow. He was at the very least equal. With mask the difference grew even larger. Even if shinji did not hold back, we did not see him being pushed back, he had a great advantage for the entire fight. That is jardly an argument in favor of shunsui.
What significance does it hold? Factor in the fact that he was going up against an injured-one-armed unreleased 6th Espada and needed to put on his mask to deal with it.
Shunsui on the other hand = on par with the first Espada. A massive power/speed difference.
Heck, Kenpachi with all of his "supposed" power met his match against the 5th Espada.
Yamamoto wasn't joking when he labeled Shunsui as a legend.
I really like to see the conversation when both sides throw their opinions and at least one of them call the other fanboys.
It's really a good argument.))
Actually people can have opinion or not. At least I would say that Shunsui has more fits according to the manga. And Shinji only has hype from people who developed his Shikai.
Shinji believed that his Shikai is hax, but it was prooved by Aizen that it isn't. I do believe that such a game would be good against Vice Captains and sych people like Ichigo, but any Captain of Byakuya's level and higher will easily understand how it works and Shinji isn't the person that can take person with one hit KO, cause he doesn't have any strong attack.
Shinji needed Mask to try to injure half-dead Grimjow without one arm and Shinji wasn't hoilding back, so we can assume that it was his full power while sealed, so that was his strongest attack we've seen...
Shunsui wins this. Yama was never prooven wrong in his words and he stated that Shunsui and Ukitake were the strongest Shinigami that graduated from Shinigami Academy (excluding Aizen for obvious KS reasons), so it includes Shinji, Urahara, all the Vaizards and so on.
Also, a reckless charging Grimmjow already demonstrated that if you charge at Shinji from the start, the latter will not have the time to spin his sword and invoke the smell (a lengthy process).
Shunsui on the other hand is on par with the 1st Espada while sealed. That's all you need to know.
Regarding Shinji vs Grimmjow, do you seriously think he NEEDED the mask? If you had read earlier posts you would see plenty of reasons other than necessity which would cause him to use the mask. To say he needed it is practically equivalent to saying Yama needed RJ vs Hallibel's fraccion.
And as for for Yama's words: 1) He can't know everything about every Shinigami. 2) He hasn't seen Shinji for 100 years, and hasn't assessed the power augmentation of a Hollow Mask.
2) Aizen didn't use KS against Shinji because it was neither shown nor mentioned in the manga: innocent until proven guilty
Aizen treated Sakanade as a joke. Shunsui will do the same ASSUMING that he lets Shinji stand there and spin his sword for a minute or two (see Grimmjow fight).
Obviously, Shinji needed mask against a half-dead Grimmjow for one simple fact: Shinji was on the run; he was dodging Grimmjow's attacks and then was forced to pull out his mask: gaining a massive boost in power and speed.
Shinji's mask while he is base = 6th Espada
If it makes you happy, Base Shinji with Mask = Bankai Ichigo with Mask (before 2nd Grimmjow fight)
Wow. Look at that: Base Shinji with Mask is on par with Bankai Ichigo with Mask
Last edited by kkck; April 07, 2011 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Shinji was on the run because HE dodged a SERIES of attacks from a half-dead Grimmjow (not one, not two, but a few of them). Then Shinji is forced to pull out his mask to contend with a half-dead Grimmjow.
LOL. What makes you think that Shunsui is dumb as a rock? He already demonstrated his intellect and see-through abilities by correctly deducing the Starrk's guns had more to them than simple cero.
Not to mention, the Grimmjow fight is a perfect example in which a charging-in opponent had showcased that Shinji would be rendered unable to invoke his smell since it requires a pretty lengthy amount of time to prepare and release.
It is clear that Shunsui is more powerful, faster, more adept as a fighter, cunning, and outright better.
Last edited by LucyBenard; April 07, 2011 at 02:14 AM.
What's funny, LucyBenard hasn't addressed your points but instead ignored them and basically repeated the same thing in his next post even though his arguments (more like 1 argument) have been countered by you :].
His guns could be used to crack nuts open or scratch his back for all Shunsui knew, there was nothing that could indicate it wasn't it's only ability besides that he was #1 espada and it looked too easy. Any person of even below average intelligence could deduce that. And actually it was more of a guess than deduction.
I have read the chapter. I just never saw any frame which had shinji on the run. I also never said shunsui was as dumb as a rock. I just don't think he would hold a candle to aizen in that department.
If that sort of logic was in any plausible way applicable to bleach then the manga could have 1000 chapters and we still would not have seen a single shikai, let alone a bankai or even worst, a resurreccion.Quote:
That's the spirit.)Quote:
1. I really don't understand why everyone continue to assume that everyone in Bleach exept Urahara and Aizen are imbeciles. They are pretty much intellectual, at least the high tier Captains like Yoruichi, Shunsui, Ukitake and middle tier like Byakua. Hell, even Kenpach with his special battle instincts managed to pull a win against bigger trick like Tousen's Bankai.
2. When you brush your teeth and look in the mirror you don't need to be Einstein.
3. You prove me wrong with actual facts from the manga.
It's clearly different case. Shinji really said that he wouldn't hold back. And even this attack wasn't enough to finish half-dead Grim without one hand. And it was supposed to be the strongest Shinji's attack.Quote:
Also we do know how strong is Yama, but Shinji is not that strong as people want him to be. He practically had no fits in the manga, but people made him that strong developing his skills for him.
Every Shinigami has his limits and Shinji supposedly hitted his even before Hollowfication, so even with it Shinji might have not gotten that much an upgrade. Vaizards Hollowfication wasn't even as strong as Ichigo's.Quote:
Also it isn't as Yama knows everything, but it is like Kubo speaks trough Yama and states facts.
^The stats are not absolute in the least, it is just relative to shunsui. In that sense, having a 90 in intellect does not mean he is as smart as anyone else who has 90. He could have 90 in his intellect and still be a moron for the most part while someone having a mere 40 could be smarter than shunsui.