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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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120. You may not vote on this poll
  • Shunsui

    66 55.00%
  • Shinji

    54 45.00%
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Thread: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

  1. #271
    in absentia 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity saladesu's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Please be civil when discussing and debating with other members. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - you to yours and theirs to theirs. Please respect this and do not flame, bash or diss anyone because they disagree with you or fail to see your point.

    Any such posts will be dealt with appropriately. Thank you!

    If you see any such posts, please also feel free to report the post using the red report button at the bottom left of any post, so that a moderator can be notified. Thank you

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  3. #272
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Bhoot's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Ifi t was not for Shusui not being able to go Bankai in this tournament , I think he'd have been given the clear win .

    Secondly , why is everyone limiting Shusui's ability to the color game ?? . I mean there can be "n" number of child games .
    In this case , Shusui might not even activate that game .

    While its true that his reflexes might work against him , its also true that Yama wouldn't really not teach Shusui different tricks .
    But then again i guess , none of that was stated anywhere .


    Well while I have to say just because Shusui's abilities have been kept in the dark , he is having trouble winning .

    Still I vote for Shusui

  4. #273
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Actually he's limited to what he's shown. While there is an absolutely massive list of games, japanese alone, that he could reasonably pull from even if it were limited to Oni games, which Busho Goma disproves, without knowing what they do they're invalid. As such he really only has the four he's already shown, and Takaoni is a tad under defined, we don't know how the damage goes, just that it doesn't make him invulnerable when the parameters are met.

    Overall I'm going with Shunsui. He's got it rough no doubt, but I'd think he's reasonable enough not to pull Iro Oni unless he's sure he has an edge, as he did with Starrk after nailing him with Kage oni. Two swords and being able to block from both sides helps immensely, even if the defense is not remotely perfect. It's close no doubt, and Shinji's inversion screws him over to hell, he's not not 'quite' as screwed as most others would be.

  5. #274
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Snake_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    A very interesting match to decide the third place for this tournament... One that I was really hoping for.

    I think this would be an incredibly close fight, one I think would be awesome to see in the manga/anime, but if I had to place a bet, I would probably still go for Kyouraku.

    Shinji has come so far in this tournament thanks to Sakanade's incredibly problematic ability. In his match-ups up until this point, only Aizen could've been expected to be capable of fighting it. Kyouraku, however, is one of the few people I think are skilled enough to actually deal with Sakanade as well, along Ukitake, Yamamoto, Stark and possibly Urahara. Not only because Kyouraku has shown quite impeccable skill with sword-play and combat in general, but also because he's highly experienced with handling this kind of thing because of his own zanpakutou's abilities. Having his senses completely reversed seems just like the kind of thing up Kyouraku's alley.

    This is how I think the match would play out.

    Unreleased, Kyouraku and Shinji would have a lot of fun with each other, but against his double-bladed fighting style, Shinji will be in trouble. Eventually, he'll have to get serious and grab his Hollow mask. If Shinji attacks aggressively like he did against Grimmjow, even Kyouraku won't be able to keep up and he'll have to release Katen Kyoukotsu. With it, though, he'll turn the tide on Shinji again (probably without using most of his games; Bushogoma and Takaoni will suffice). He'll either land a good hit eventually or Shinji will have to take off his Hollow mask to conserve his power.

    Once that happens, Shinji will give Sakanade a try. With the ability depending on smell, Kyouraku won't avoid being caught in its effects. But even if Shinji doesn't explain his zanpakutou's power, I think Kyouraku will catch on remarkably quick because of his own experience dealing with Katen Kyoukotsu. Shinji will definitely land some hits at first, though, but on the other hand, Kyouraku isn't the type to go down easily: taking a shot from Stark to the back and getting up without much difficulty is proof of that. Kyouraku will last a while and once he understands all the aspects that are inverted, I think he'll be good enough to keep up. The fact that he also uses two swords also gives him an edge, both for defense and offense. Kyouraku will start hitting back and Shinji will start losing his advantage. His only hope is his Hollow mask, but Kyouraku still has some games of his own in reserve. Once Katen Kyoukotsu gets in the mood, he'll try Kageoni and Irooni: a reversed shadow-stab seems like something Kyouraku can pull off once the right opportunity presents itself and with those blades, he'll do some major damage; similarly, Kyouraku fighting Shinji with Irooni, even with everything inverted, seems within the range of his capabilities. This last one will be particuliarly useful, since it will make the increased power of Shinji's blows when he uses his Hollow mask useless.

    Shinji won't be easily defeated and Sakanade will add a very difficult factor to this fight, but with those games, Kyouraku's skill and the fact that he's willing to use any dirty trick in the book in order to win, I say that Kyouraku has what it takes.

    Kyouraku wins.
    "See you, Snake Cowboy..."

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  7. #275
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner EureKA's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Many fighters in bleach could get on better with different opponents, others could find some problematic while others would win with relative ease compared to a colleague who is just as strong but doesn't have the abilities best suited to fighting that individual.

    Shinji has two such shinigami who would be more screwed than others based on their abilities and those are kenpachi and shunsui.

    If anyone wanted to give it a moments thought they would realize that both have a lot to show so this is only based on what has been shown thus far. Both still have bankai after all.

    Both are up their as the 5 most experienced shinigami (ukitake, yourichi, unohano, shunsui and shinji) while the new captains have been there for a while these five have been fighting with captain lvl abilities the longest.

    Shinji has a mask to make up the difference (which isn't huge) and his sakanade has the ability to literally turn shusui's shikai on it's own head.

    If Shunsui played the height game sorry bud up is down, his game is now playing to shinji's advantage. He want's to cut a colour, careful shunsui it could very well be your last move don't forget cuts are reversed too. Hell even if shunsui played the shadow game he could very well end up shooting himself in the foot.

    This battle would be the biggest mess of a fight anyone could ever hope for in the bleach universe. I don't even think people could watch it and comprehend what they just saw.
    Last edited by EureKA; April 10, 2011 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #276
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Hieght game can't be screwed over. Reversing up/down is more obvious than all the others because suddenly the ground is above you, and worse still shinji's orientation will always be 'lower' if he's also above you. It's still screwed over in the sense that he won't be able to actually connect the blow, but Shinji's ability does not work in such a way that up/down are even remotely hard to tell from.

    Shadow game is also impossible to botch, purely because Shinji's touching his shadow will look the same from all orientations, and then all he has to do is stab the ground and a sword will pop up to stab him from there automatically.

    Iro Oni's a lot trickier admittedly, though frankly so long as the person isn't wearing asymmetrical cloths it really doesn't matter which way they are. However the two don't really wear matching cloths in the first place so that game's useless.

  9. #277
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    The point of Sakanade is that, even if Shunsui figures out how it works / Shinji gets cocky and explains it to him, it will always take Shunsui quite a while (and by this I mean at least a few milliseconds) to process where up, down, left, right, front and back are in the inverted world, every time he strikes. Once he grasps the general idea of it, it will still require some thought each time he wishes to strike, just to reconcile with what his instincts have taught him over the centuries he has fought, and with Shinji constantly on the offensive, Shunsui won't have the time to do this before Shinji can land a hit.

    With Takaoni, it's not as though the attack is reduced to 1 dimension just because it depends on who is higher up, he will still need to attack in 3 dimensions, so it won't be as easy as distinguishing up from down.

    With Kageoni, you have a point, but I don't believe Shunsui will ever be in a position to use it - he won't catch Shinji off guard as he did Starrk, and he won't be able to get near Shinji without being forced to go on the defensive, so if he does have an opportunity to use Kageoni, he'll be too busy blocking Shinji's attacks to stab the shadow.

    Iraoni basically favors whoever has the greatest chance of landing a hit, not taking power into account, so again, even assuming Shinji's cutting power is below Shunsui's (which I don't believe it really is), Shinji has the advantage.

    Tbh, I don't expect Shunsui to last long enough to use his games. If Shinji isn't kind enough to explain his ability, Shunsui is as good as dead within a few seconds. If Shinji does, he might be able to get a ballpark notion of where Shinji will be coming from, but delivering an accurate enough strike to put Shinji in danger just after all 3 spatial planes in your vision have been inverted? Not going to happen. He'll be just getting himself accustomed to his left arm moving up and to the left when in his mind he's moving his right arm down and to the right, when Shinji Shunpos in and delivers a fatal blow.

    Only way I see Shunsui winning this is to stop Shinji from releasing, but based on Shunsui's history with allowing people to release, and the fact that you won't be aware of the scent until you inhale it, I don't expect this to happen.

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  11. #278
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    He doesn't have to figure it out, that's the point of the two blades. So long as he knows Shinji can only possibly come from two directions based on any rotation, practically a given with the mere activation of the world, he can keep virtually any strike from being fatal by blocking both possible directions, and then countering with the other blade where applicable.

    He's not being unwounded by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly doesn't lead to a stomp either.

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  13. #279
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member cloudo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Quote Originally Posted by AlB View Post
    Oh, so now people are saying that Shinji won't be able to get shunsui under his Shikai?
    Whatever, I'm not even wasting my time to argue about that.

    And for the record lucy, Ichigo's 11 second mask-limit looked more like a 25 minute limit in the anime, so if that's what you are basing your arguments around Lucy, we have nothing to talk about.
    Oh, so now people are saying that Shunsui won't be able to get Shinji under his skikai?

    We can all agree here that if were going to take sides, then you must give credit to the other side. It's only fair, if it's an assumption, which is most of the arguments here. Shinji won't off the bat put Shunsui under the effects of Sakanade, if it were that easy for him to do, he would have done it before. While he can release his sword, he still has to use it's abilities for it to work, same with Shunsui. So if Shinji's sakanade works, Shunsui's games will work. Even if it is moody, it'll still be played, because Bushogoma and Takaoni didn't have any problems being played. And if this is a tournament, why should we assume his swords will always be moody? This isn't lazy Starrk. Shinji might actually be serious. But Shunsui isn't stationary Aizen either. So, what I'm saying is sitting around watching a spinning sword isn't what Shunsui will be doing. I think Shunsui's abilities work just fine against Sakanade. The Bushogoma will work very well, isolating the smell if he goes to spin it around. That's his ranged attack, which should buy him time to set up another attack. Shinji would probably use his mask and maybe fire a cero if he saw the speed of Shunsui. I don't think Sakanade is the best bet to use unless you have an opponent who is unsuspecting you to pull out an ability like that. But Shunsui is a different fighter, and doesn't 'sit still'. With Starrk he moved around, analyzed, figured out what he was about, though cero metralleta was somewhat of a problem, they were still ceros, and I believe anyone would be hit with them, since they are machine gun ceros.

    So I think Shunsui would win, based on the abilities of his games, I think they'd render Sakanade useless, and a cero. The shadow game I think would be one of the keys to victory. Like the anime showed, if you want to attack Shunsui, and he's grounded, you're more than likely to create a shadow, without knowledge that Shunsui can hide in them and strike them, you're screwed. And the color game I think is more insurance against Sakanade. While everything might be reversed, he still has to attack Shunsui. While that happens, Shunsui calls Irooni and a color and even if it doesn't hit, Shinji has no clue what it does. And unless he's all of a sudden more analytical than Starrk, he's not going to get what the game is about unless Shunsui tells him about the rules (which was only done for Starrk because of plot and explanation).


    Quote Originally Posted by AlB View Post
    Hey, you know what! Shunsui needs to explain the abilities of his sword to an opponent, otherwise he will not be able to win the battle! OMG!!!!
    He did not explain the rules of shadow game to stark that is why he could not kill him with shadow attack!
    He killed Stark only after explaining rules of Irooni.
    According to realistic and perfectly sensible manga facts Shunsui will have to explain the rules of his game to SHinji, otherwise no victory for Shunshun

    IMO, that's more than enough of a proof, as I am sure most readers would agree to, including but not limited to the folks at kubo's studio
    That's blatantly false. Especially after Shunsui says "I planned to give you hints..." he said nothing in the sort of what you're suggesting.

    Going by what you're implying- Shinji has to tell people that he's spinning his sword and it's making a smell for them to ever breathe it in. Is that not the case? So Shunsui has to tell his opponents his abilities? That's false. He told Starrk he could hide in shadows before he stabbed him from it? No. He told Starrk he could cut colors that he calls out before he cut gray? No. Your statement is wrong. It's NOT cannon, and should be neglected.

    We know you don't like Shunsui, and anyone who does like him you seem to be against. But you're discrediting a character because of what? He didn't have to tell Starrk anything. He could have threw his robe in Starrk's face and called "iro-oni, BLACK" and killed him in one strike like he did in his 2nd attack. He gave him hints like the MANGA- not AlB- said.
    Last edited by cloudo; April 10, 2011 at 11:39 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  14. #280
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    I personally don't know whether it's necessary for Shunsui to explain the rules of his games to his opponent - however, Iraoni is a turn based game, so after Shunsui selects a color and attacks Shinji, they will continue fighting with that color activated until Shinji selects a color, which will require Shunsui to explain the game to him. If Shunsui selects a color which he has a large amount of covering his body, he is at great risk himself, and due to Shinji's greater probability to get a hit in than Shunsui anyway, due to the immense advantage Sakanade provides, Shunsui is screwed. If Shunsui selects a color which only covers a minor amount of his body, Shinji will be in no danger until he calls a color, since he will receive minimal damage from even a strong attack. So I don't really expect Iraoni to be a problem for Shinji.

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  16. #281
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Wow... those final battle are really the thoughest...

    I really had a hard time to decide who would win this...
    But, after a lot of thought, I decided to go with Shinji.

    Shunsui is freaking strong, yes.
    But, like other pointed out, his games don't really put him in advantage since he has to play them to.

    On the other hand, Shinji's power is only good for him and disastrous for his opponent.


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  17. #282
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    Uh, no he doesn't have to turn. Do a simple side to side stance, hold out both your blades out for the block, perpendicular to how he's striking (or whatever angle is most likely to block a blow from either right or left at the same time, altering the moment you feel the blades touch to compensate).
    Ok, that still won't help much. Shunsui doesn't have eyes on the back of his head; no matter what he can only be facing one direction at once. Also that stance leaves his back wide open; not to mention making blocking awkwardly difficult. If he's standing sideways with his right side facing Shinji (actually Shinji's mirror image) that still means Shinji will actually be on his opposite side and when he turns his head to face the real Shinji he'll be invisible and then Shinji can simply use a thrust and nail him in the chest. Mostly that stance fails though because Shinji won't just be retardly charging from one direction at a time, hollow Shinji will be shunpoing around Shunsui (which under normal circumstances would make it hard to keep up with him to begin with) and trying to cut him from a wide variety of angles—which are virtually limitless if they are in the air. That attack that looked like Shinji was heading for Shunsui's left shoulder just dismembered Shunsui's right leg.

    Now I know what you'll say, Shunsui can simply simultaneously place his second blade to block an attack coming from the lower right when he see's Shinji coming for his left shoulder. Problem is Shinji will actually be behind him as well—which means Shunsui has to turn around and block his an attack from a now invisible target who can easily alter the trajectory of his cut during mid-swing.

    Quote Quote:
    Since all his strikes can only be reversed by 180 degrees, this not only negates half the usual offensive blows which assume straight on strikes, but overheads are negated by default as no matter what he does, if he goes overhead it's automatically easy to see and block. In basic swordplay, while generally you want to face your opponent head on, this sort of stance would work regardless.
    First of all, you make it sound like it's a bad thing. The strikes "can only be reversed by 180 degrees." Well duh, that's obviously how you ideally reverse things. What good would he gain from flipping things 360 degrees??

    As for the rest of your above paragraph, I honestly have no clue as to what you're saying. How does everything being reversed 180 "negate half the usual offensive blows" or negate overheads by default??


    Quote Quote:
    Mind he'll still get damaged in most cases, not knowing right/left screws him over there meaning he'll have the settle for keeping it from being fatal.
    And how exactly does he do that? Are you now saying he's going to pull a Kenpachi and do partial dodges as he feels Shinji's blade cutting into him? That's seriously flawed on so many levels. For starters, Shunsui is not Kenpachi; what Kenpachi can or cannot do holds no bearing here. Secondly, Shinji is not Kaname. Honestly, if Shunsui's two swords prove to be as big of an issue as you claim (which trust me they won't; having two will hardly make a difference) then Shinji will simply take one of his arms off.

    Quote Quote:
    All the side to side blows are what's going to be rotated however he likes, which naturally are going to be the ones he aims for if he's not stupid, which is definitely the case. Rough, but not impossible.
    Nothing's impossible but, "rough" sure as hell is an understatement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Cowboy View Post
    Unreleased, Kyouraku and Shinji would have a lot of fun with each other, but against his double-bladed fighting style, Shinji will be in trouble. Eventually, he'll have to get serious and grab his Hollow mask. If Shinji attacks aggressively like he did against Grimmjow, even Kyouraku won't be able to keep up and he'll have to release Katen Kyoukotsu. With it, though, he'll turn the tide on Shinji again (probably without using most of his games; Bushogoma and Takaoni will suffice). He'll either land a good hit eventually or Shinji will have to take off his Hollow mask to conserve his power.
    Here's where you go wrong. If Shunsui can't keep up with masked Shinji, him going shikai won't change anything. Unlike Shinji's mask, Shunsui's shikai doesn't give him more speed, power, reiatsu, or durability. The only thing Shunusui does gain are a few games that have an equal chance of of screwing him over. Bushogoma literally does jack, and if you claim that Shunsui can't keep up with masked Shinji how will he land that? Same with takaoni, how will he land that attack against an opponent he can't keep up with (by your own admission)? Now even assuming KK is in the mood for Kage oni or Iro oni, those won't help much either. Especially iro oni, that one hurts more than it helps against an opponent you can't keep up with. So honestly, going by your analysis I don't see how Shinji (sealed + mask) could lose. If Shunsui can't keep up with masked Shinji under normal circumstances, honestly he's doomed once sakanade comes into play. Don't worry though, I agree, I think hollowfication alone is a big enough boost that Shinji wouldn't even need sakanade to beat Shunsui at his gimmicky games.
    Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; April 11, 2011 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  19. #283
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member AlB's Avatar
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudo View Post
    Oh, so now people are saying that Shunsui won't be able to get Shinji under his skikai?
    Never said that. Take it to the one who did.

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudo View Post
    We can all agree here that if were going to take sides, then you must give credit to the other side. It's only fair, if it's an assumption, which is most of the arguments here. Shinji won't off the bat put Shunsui under the effects of Sakanade, if it were that easy for him to do, he would have done it before. While he can release his sword, he still has to use it's abilities for it to work, same with Shunsui. So if Shinji's sakanade works, Shunsui's games will work. Even if it is moody, it'll still be played, because Bushogoma and Takaoni didn't have any problems being played. And if this is a tournament, why should we assume his swords will always be moody? This isn't lazy Starrk. Shinji might actually be serious. But Shunsui isn't stationary Aizen either. So, what I'm saying is sitting around watching a spinning sword isn't what Shunsui will be doing. I think Shunsui's abilities work just fine against Sakanade. The Bushogoma will work very well, isolating the smell if he goes to spin it around. That's his ranged attack, which should buy him time to set up another attack. Shinji would probably use his mask and maybe fire a cero if he saw the speed of Shunsui. I don't think Sakanade is the best bet to use unless you have an opponent who is unsuspecting you to pull out an ability like that. But Shunsui is a different fighter, and doesn't 'sit still'. With Starrk he moved around, analyzed, figured out what he was about, though cero metralleta was somewhat of a problem, they were still ceros, and I believe anyone would be hit with them, since they are machine gun ceros.

    So I think Shunsui would win, based on the abilities of his games, I think they'd render Sakanade useless, and a cero. The shadow game I think would be one of the keys to victory. Like the anime showed, if you want to attack Shunsui, and he's grounded, you're more than likely to create a shadow, without knowledge that Shunsui can hide in them and strike them, you're screwed. And the color game I think is more insurance against Sakanade. While everything might be reversed, he still has to attack Shunsui. While that happens, Shunsui calls Irooni and a color and even if it doesn't hit, Shinji has no clue what it does. And unless he's all of a sudden more analytical than Starrk, he's not going to get what the game is about unless Shunsui tells him about the rules (which was only done for Starrk because of plot and explanation).
    <hr noshade size="1">


    That's blatantly false. Especially after Shunsui says "I planned to give you hints..." he said nothing in the sort of what you're suggesting.

    Going by what you're implying- Shinji has to tell people that he's spinning his sword and it's making a smell for them to ever breathe it in. Is that not the case? So Shunsui has to tell his opponents his abilities? That's false. He told Starrk he could hide in shadows before he stabbed him from it? No. He told Starrk he could cut colors that he calls out before he cut gray? No. Your statement is wrong. It's NOT cannon, and should be neglected.

    We know you don't like Shunsui, and anyone who does like him you seem to be against. But you're discrediting a character because of what? He didn't have to tell Starrk anything. He could have threw his robe in Starrk's face and called "iro-oni, BLACK" and killed him in one strike like he did in his 2nd attack. He gave him hints like the MANGA- not AlB- said.
    Apparently, my entire post was a single sarcastic, cynical, ironic or whatever BS aimed at arguing in the same manner as did LucyBenard. Of course I do not believe that Shunsui has to explain rules. I simply wanted to argue with the guy the way he is arguing with others.

    Honestly, I'm surprised you took it seriously dude.

    And stop this Busho Goma bs people, W.E. D.O. N.O.T. K.N.O.W. W.H.A.T. BUSHO GOMA D.O.E.S.

    And, as I (and approximately 100 others) said, Shunsui's games are obsolete when facing Shinji.
    Last edited by AlB; April 11, 2011 at 02:18 PM.

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  21. #284
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
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    Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

    It's all over and decided!
    Third Place: Kyōraku Shunsui
    Fourth Place: Hirako Shinji

    I hope you enjoyed the match and tournament as a whole. Please stay tuned for a few special final things for the grand finale!

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