Where did Kishimoto go wrong with the 'mindf**k plot device'

[jorped]

Of course, just having the zetsubies fighting is not entertaining.
Too bad summoning the dead and having them fight is also not entertaining.
The thing with Naruto now is that the enemies is not as interesting. I call the fight with the twin fox brothers dull and boring and then the 7 swordsmen was a lame last-minute pull and they deserved a grander entrance.
The enemies now feel like "eh..whatever.." for me, including the dead because I didn't feel anything from Sai's battle nor anything from Asuma's.
It feels like Kishimoto is sucking out everything and taking everything from the past to put in this arc but he is doing it in the way that is boring and failed to make anyone really interested.
The only bad guys I care about is Madara and Kabuto
I was yawning all the way throughout the twin fox fight or whatever.

Couldn't agree more with you !

I still didn't understand why Kishi is making Kabuto fail so hard!
Kabuto is being trolled by Kishi!



I just hope that we can have at least one great fight, that it won't have Naruto has the protagonist! I want to see alot from Gaara and i just hope that the et kages give a very hard time to him and Onoki!

I still am expecting to see what the well happened with Kakashi and his division!

[Jammin]

I think frankie is right Edo Tensei has become something of copout but i don't think it had to be that way and i don't think it has to remain that way.

Originally, i loved the concept of Edo Tensei. If only because it would help to prevent the impending narrative doom that a war fought solely with Tobi's army of Zetsu puddies would have been.

Unfortunately, so far the good guys have always won, and the bad guys have always lost. And i'm getting no sense of emotional torment from most of them, and when i do they quickly have a "touched by an angel" moment and perish.

Then, something that really has twisted the proverbial knife, was that the strongest ones that have fought so far have seemed like they went out of their way to lose.

• Deidara
  He's a long range homing shinobi and yet spent practically his whole fight at pretty close range. Then he gets trounced by Sai. After that fight i wasn't left thinking how awesome Sai was. I was left thinking how much Deidara sucked. This is somebody the Tsuchikage took seriously and damn near killed Sasuke.
• Silver & Gold brothers
  It's one of the only times i think a shinobi's jutsu actually made them weaker not stronger. They had the ability to use Kyuubi cloaks and they instead use a bunch of sacred treasures that settle combat through word games? Really?!
• Hanzou
  One of the most powerful shinobi in the land and he decides not to use ninjutsu because.... he's afraid of getting cut. He's immortal. Getting cut should be no big deal. I mean, Deidara didn't seem to have a problem with blowing himself up. This was the guy who was supposed to have beaten down Jiriaya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru.....all at the same time.

So far the only Edo Tensei zombies that really fully lived up to what i hoped the zombies would be was the group fighting Kakashi's army. Which is funny because when i first saw them i remember thinking they were just the fodder of the Edo Tensei'd guys. If all the Edo Tensei'd shinobi had come out like them, i would be a very happy fan right now.

[benelori]

Not to mention that, unfortunately, I don't see this getting better.

7 swordmen, 4 kages and 7 jinchuurikis.

Let's take these for example: Instead of just bring all of them, he could bring only the jinchuurikis. Why is that? Because I'm sure each one of them has a great amount of personal background, pretty much like Gaara and Naruto. So, Kishimoto would keep things way more interesting by giving more focus to each of them, explaining that past, and preparing the battles.

But I can't see this scenario anymore: with so many zombies out there, he couldn't afford to spend a few chapters with each jinchuuriki. 1, 2 chapters, at most. Such a waste, if you ask me.

Sadly, all the ET thing is getting too boring and repetitive, because the character development for the zombies is 0. And, IMO, all the jinchuurikis deserved some development, considering they were the focus of part 2.

Though I never expected much development for the Edo zombies, because as it was said before it is indeed a plot device to develop good guys, I think you touched an issue that could really bring back an old theme of the manga, which is the pain and misery of being a jinchuuriki...
Unfortunately the great numbers will probably get in the way of describing each Jinchuuriki, but I hope at least when treated as a group the Jinchuuriki could generate some drama...

But yeah...the intensity or the dramatic feel is crippled by this entire Edo spam...so we are left to imagine what kind of feeling would these chapters have, if there weren't as many Edos...probably something similar to the chuunin exams or maybe the save Sasuke arc?...

[jorped]

i think it is cool idea that Kabuto got to summon this huge amount of et, but in order to this work perfectly Kishi should have been prepared for the fact that the war would need to be longer than if he was going to only make Kabuto summon few! He is rushing everything !

The only think i am disappointed is about the fact that all of ets until now have been defeated much easier than what i would have expect , and until now i already saw a lot of ets sealed and none important death on Alliance side

[Zeltrax]

[*]Hanzou
One of the most powerful shinobi in the land and he decides not to use ninjutsu because.... he's afraid of getting cut. He's immortal. Getting cut should be no big deal. I mean, Deidara didn't seem to have a problem with blowing himself up. This was the guy who was supposed to have beaten down Jiriaya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru.....all at the same time.[/LIST]

Whoa, I forgotten about him being stronger than the trio. Does that mean that the old samurai guy is stronger than all the trio combined?
Hanzou was hyped up so much and is suppose to be so strong,
how Kishi handled him was definitely... ..a waste.

[jdw]

No, it does not. Even if Mifune beat Hanzou outright, it would not mean he is stronger than the Sannin, either as a group or individually. Match-ups count for something.

[jorped]

Whoa, I forgotten about him being stronger than the trio. Does that mean that the old samurai guy is stronger than all the trio combined?
Hanzou was hyped up so much and is suppose to be so strong,
how Kishi handled him was definitely... ..a waste.

First of all when Hanzou fought against Orochimaru, Jiraya and Tsunade they were young! Those 3 are much stronger now than during that war!

I cannot believe that Hanzou would be able to beat these 3 now!!

And Mifune beat Hanzou - version et , that didn't had any motivation to fight and by that was much weaker!

[Son-Derling]

First of all when Hanzou fought against Orochimaru, Jiraya and Tsunade they were young! Those 3 are much stronger now than during that war!

I cannot believe that Hanzou would be able to beat these 3 now!!

But then again Jiraiya was still surprised that Hanzou was beaten 1on1 (before his fight with Pain)...

In this case it is probably more the "everybody except Uchihas have one weakness and once the enemy knows it you are death"

[juUnior]

I never expected character development for the zombies. They are plot devices to develop the heroes.

Amen. And to Jammin xD <to the posts >

Plus, the Edo Tensei's weakness is pretty horrible and annoying.

hmm, I remember when ET was brought again by Kishi, and ppl were asking themselves: Alliance is screwed, there's no chance to stop zombies, they regenreate, even if Kabuto dies they still fight, the only way to seal them is by using Shiki Fujiin.... HA HA HA, what a mess.

The major problem with Edo Tensei is that the justu seemingly has no drawback other than extensive preparation. Generally the author makes techniques fairly balanced by bestowing upon them necessary drawbacks, but Edo Tensei appears to break this trend. Kabuto's version is a real gamebreaker and the manga itself lampshades this fact when Kabuto mentioned Edo Tensei as being 1 of the 2 techniques that make him "invincible".

Kishimoto could have given the technique any number of drawbacks

I'm still not questioning THAT aspect of ET technique; I mean, the whole conversation between Kabuto and Tobi, and the former showing the latter how to do ET seems to me somewhat ambigous. I remember posting when the chapter came out in discussion thread, that I think that Kabuto is just a master of disguise - of course he wouldn't tell Tobi the drawbacks of this technique for his own sake <remember, he has some zombie which Tobi is afraid of one way or the other>. So for now I'm not doubting Kishi - I had back than a feeling that some day we will see the drawback of ET.

If not - I will just gladly agree with you. Till then - I still believe into Kishi/Tobi's way of doing "every powerful technique has a drawback" ^^

The only thing more dangerous than bonds to Edo Tensei is cloth. If Kabuto and Madara could of destroyed all the ninja textile mills before the war, than they might of had a chance.

Hahahaha, hardcore <3<3<3

[ninjabot]

The only thing that got my hyped when I realized that everyone would come back with Edo Tensei was the fact that I could see what certain characters (Hanzou, Dan) were capable of. Still, once I saw the full roster I immediately knew we couldn't expect any really sensable outcomes to the fights for the simple fact that they were all some of the strongest ninja of their generations and not only that, but they were now immortal.

Infact it's the whole immortal part that was the biggest drawback for me because you can't realistically think of a way for an army of kage level immortals to lose without some sort of retcon/asspull. Characters WOULD be dumbed down. Heroes WOULD get outrageously lucky. I expected it all (I'm sure the majority of us did actually) before the fights even started and, sure enough, Deidara goes lame and forgets to blow up the entire battlefield at jumpstreet. Then there's the bonds stuff.

I'm still interested in seeing cool powers from ninja we haven't seen yet though. I was impressed with the 7 swordsmen, Chouji, and Darui. Maybe we'll all enjoy things a bit more if we just pay attention to the feats performed in the fight, and not the outcome of the fights? That's what I'm gonna do. Still, it irks me that previously sacred characters like Hanzou are made to look like fools. Itachi's gonna get screwed over just the same.

Atleast Jiraiya was spared, lol.

[White Silver King]

Well, I think where Kishi went wrong in this manga as a whole was with the intro of the MS. That thing just fucked this plot every which way.

[insid3rkill3r]

Yeah, Kishi summoned way too many ET and by doing this he shot himself in the foot.

By summoning that many ETs... it's clear that it was for the sake of fanservice for the most part.

- People like Nagato and Itachi may have key roles in the war but but for Kabuto summon all the previous jinchirikis and swordsmens for instance is pushing it imo.

The main problem is that, by summoning that many ET, Kishi is pushed to rush most of the fights to make sure readers don't get bored and start raging about Naruto not being there anymore.

And at the same time, since the manga is bound to end after the war, Kishi wanted us to get a peek at the likes of Hanzo which we never really got to know in the first place.


Am i mad with Kishi's descision of deciding to summon that many of them for us to see what we never got the chance to prior to the war? No.

Am i completly pleased with what i am seeing right now? No.

It will all come down to when is Kishi going to make a change about how Kabuto uses his ET summons as well as when are there gonna start being casualties on the alliance side.


Imo, i say let's trust in kishi.

How many times have we came on these forums and seen people crying over something that turned out to be extremely amazing few chapters after? A LOT of times.


This is simply Kishi's way of doing this.

Sooner or later, the tide will change, we just need to be patient.

Once Itachi and Nagato arrives, blood shall be seen.

[guegoblok]

When I saw this Edo Tensei Spam a few months ago, I was pretty damn sure that everybody would get pwnd and Naruto will come to save the day, yellow flashing on the battlefield.

And then Naruto would fight Sasuke, knock some senses into him (with the help of Itachi of course), and the trio (Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke) would fight Madara.

Naruto would become the first Hokage with a genin status, marrying Hinata.
Sasuke would be forced to become a pirate and racing Luffy to get the One Piece while Sakura still btcing about why Sasuke left him.

[chess4]

its ok with me........he is tying up all the loose ends. this is a war, it has to be chaotic. kishi just cant focus on one bad guy. eveyone is just all over the place which is a good thing.


i know i have thought how strong were the other kages. how strong was dan. and im going to get those questions answered. also the guys that killed the 2nd had to be something, and i got to see them in action

[ashher]

• Deidara
  He's a long range homing shinobi and yet spent practically his whole fight at pretty close range. Then he gets trounced by Sai. After that fight i wasn't left thinking how awesome Sai was. I was left thinking how much Deidara sucked. This is somebody the Tsuchikage took seriously and damn near killed Sasuke.
• Silver & Gold brothers
  It's one of the only times i think a shinobi's jutsu actually made them weaker not stronger. They had the ability to use Kyuubi cloaks and they instead use a bunch of sacred treasures that settle combat through word games? Really?!
• Hanzou
  One of the most powerful shinobi in the land and he decides not to use ninjutsu because.... he's afraid of getting cut. He's immortal. Getting cut should be no big deal. I mean, Deidara didn't seem to have a problem with blowing himself up. This was the guy who was supposed to have beaten down Jiriaya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru.....all at the same time.

So far the only Edo Tensei zombies that really fully lived up to what i hoped the zombies would be was the group fighting Kakashi's army. Which is funny because when i first saw them i remember thinking they were just the fodder of the Edo Tensei'd guys. If all the Edo Tensei'd shinobi had come out like them, i would be a very happy fan right now.

deidara: he sucked hard alright. but that's nothing new. he played as he always played.he would've won against sasuke had he cornered him with his biggest jutsus at first. so that can't be 'going out his way to loose'.
kin gin: their curse was better than hidan's. it was almost impossible to avoid. don't see how using it made them weaker.
hanzo:you cut of the finger, and he can't use seals. so no wonder he couldn't use jutsu, letting the fingers get cut over and over again won't have helped him in any way.

so far the only edo who disappointed me battle wise was sasori. i still can't believe he wouldn't use humans as puppets that time.