Where did Kishimoto go wrong with the 'mindf**k plot device'

[ashher]

Its because he's letting edos keep/talk in their same personality. Even the 'blank personality' doesn't strike any chord with the readers. They feel like the way we knew them before, or just turned into puppets. What really would've felt tragic is if they had become evil,or may be just opposite to their previous selves. Like if they honestly started trying to kill their students with full will. That would've felt like them really turned into different persons and would've made the other characters (+the readers) long for their old selves,which we loved. Recently i've been reading a manga and something like this happened there. Trust me it felt really sad.

what do you think? how could this 'edo' plot technique have been better written so that it would've some real emotional values for the readers?

[jdw]

The real problem is that he spammed so many of them back to life that he cannot give them the respectable treatment they deserve. If he spammed fewer, I am sure he would have been able to write something more fulfilling.

[ashher]

The real problem is that he spammed so many of them back to life that he cannot give them the respectable treatment they deserve. If he spammed fewer, I am sure he would have been able to write something more fulfilling.

Fewer numbers would've definitely helped. He had to supply opponents for the named good characters i think. May be he could've let each edo have a few fights,killing his first opponents. Sadly that's out of lines for shonens of these days. So he had to revive this many edos.

[Jammin]

I think, it's the accumulation of a whole host of little things that each leech out just a tinsy bit of drama. Like a bunch of tiny holes in a bucket.

• Edo Tensei's seemingly numerous loopholes
  I don't even feel like Kabuto is really controlling these people anymore because they have broken out or resisted him so often.
• The sheer numbers
  As jdw pointed out there is just so many of them. If Kishi were to give each the time they probably deserved this arc would last several years.
• How many small battles he's treated like big ones
  I think we are starting to hit the same thing which happened in Bleach during it's war arc. When an author has supporting characters act as the "stars of the show" and treats each fight like a pinnacle battle, along with all the mid-battle drama, the battles start carrying less and less impact. Because we are basically just watching different variations on the same formula. The longer the trend continues the more drama it leeches out because the bad guys just don't seem to be as threatening as they used to be, on account of how many times we've seen the whole thing play out before.

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Since the loopholes and the numbers can't be changed now.

I think the best hope for the series to restore some of the drama that Edo Tensei has lost is to break up the battle formula they have going.

Doesn't even have to be anything major. Something as simple as having a group of Edo Tensei zombies working together efficiently would probably be enough. Or have them start doing some damage. Or just focus away from the Edo Tensei battles for a few chapters, the Mizukage vs Zetsu would probably do the trick.

[jdw]

I think Kishi could have made it a little more interesting in the Ino-Shika-Chou v. Asuma if he played up Asuma's child a bit more. Asuma's child was unborn when he died, so he never saw his baby. It would have been awesome if Asuma asked about his child while they fought or something, or if Shikamaru would have showed Asuma a picture of the baby, etc.

[MonsterEnvy]

I don't even feel like Kabuto is really controlling these people anymore because they have broken out or resisted him so often.
.

um the only one who has resisted him or Broke out of his control was Hanzo (and it was only for a few seconds before his mind was wiped)

[Jammin]

um the only one who has resisted him or Broke out of his control was Hanzo (and it was only for a few seconds before his mind was wiped)

I believe that is incorrect.

Sai's brother's soul was the first to break out entirely. Then Sasori's did the same thing after he was bound up. And later Hanzo managed to get sufficiently loose to stab himself thereby allowing himself to get captured. So that's 3 right there.

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@jdw
I think your right some dialogue involving the kid would have definitely ramped up the drama.

As things played out the drama was about Chouji much more than it was about Asuma.

[patedecarne]

Not to mention that, unfortunately, I don't see this getting better.

7 swordmen, 4 kages and 7 jinchuurikis.

Let's take these for example: Instead of just bring all of them, he could bring only the jinchuurikis. Why is that? Because I'm sure each one of them has a great amount of personal background, pretty much like Gaara and Naruto. So, Kishimoto would keep things way more interesting by giving more focus to each of them, explaining that past, and preparing the battles.

But I can't see this scenario anymore: with so many zombies out there, he couldn't afford to spend a few chapters with each jinchuuriki. 1, 2 chapters, at most. Such a waste, if you ask me.

Sadly, all the ET thing is getting too boring and repetitive, because the character development for the zombies is 0. And, IMO, all the jinchuurikis deserved some development, considering they were the focus of part 2.

[NAM61]

yeah the problem is their it to many to have long fights. he had a good idea at first to use them for psychological it has worked for a bit but they end up losing. the alliance is to big they are needed to make the war seem more evenly and make madaras group a treat. but it has been the opposite they have lost easily.

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Not to mention that, unfortunately, I don't see this getting better.

7 swordmen, 4 kages and 7 jinchuurikis.

Let's take these for example: Instead of just bring all of them, he could bring only the jinchuurikis. Why is that? Because I'm sure each one of them has a great amount of personal background, pretty much like Gaara and Naruto. So, Kishimoto would keep things way more interesting by giving more focus to each of them, explaining that past, and preparing the battles.

But I can't see this scenario anymore: with so many zombies out there, he couldn't afford to spend a few chapters with each jinchuuriki. 1, 2 chapters, at most. Such a waste, if you ask me.

Sadly, all the ET thing is getting too boring and repetitive, because the character development for the zombies is 0. And, IMO, all the jinchuurikis deserved some development, considering they were the focus of part 2.

if they fight naruto and bee they will get better development and better treatment cause they will be facing the main character.

[Jessie]

I think Kishi could have made it a little more interesting in the Ino-Shika-Chou v. Asuma if he played up Asuma's child a bit more. Asuma's child was unborn when he died, so he never saw his baby. It would have been awesome if Asuma asked about his child while they fought or something, or if Shikamaru would have showed Asuma a picture of the baby, etc.

Agreed. Kishi based on entire arc around the relationship between Asuma and Shikamaru with the subplot of the "King". It directly tied to Naruto and his generation maturing and taking responsibility. While not yet born, Asuma's child played a major role in it as a physical representation of what Asuma was fighting for. Yet in this fight the previous themes were only lightly touched on because the focus was mostly on Choji who was only a minor player before. Even Shikamaru's mention of the baby and Kurenai was only tied to getting Choji to man up.

I understand what Kishi was trying to do. Choji represented the member of the Konoha 12 who was not ready for war and would grow up on the battlefield. But I can question if that should of occurred during the Asuma fight which could have been considered more personal between Asuma and Shikamaru. It just felt like it could have been a lot more emotional. Instead Kishi went a different route and decided to develop Choji.

I guess you can argue that Choji finally acting like a man does fit into the whole concept of protecting the next generation. If there is to be a 17th generation Ino-Shika-Cho, then the 16th generation can't die.

Sadly, all the ET thing is getting too boring and repetitive, because the character development for the zombies is 0. And, IMO, all the jinchuurikis deserved some development, considering they were the focus of part 2.

I never expected character development for the zombies. They are plot devices to develop the heroes.

[M3J]

Edo Tensei spam got pretty annoying, and what's annoying is that it isn't as much of a mindfuck as it should have been. Sai vs. his brother and Asuma vs. Ino-Shika-Chou were good chances of showing the trouble the characters would go through. Didn't deliver as well.

Plus, the Edo Tensei's weakness is pretty horrible and annoying. Not to mention, the way some are going out like Sasori. "Oh hey, my soul will be at peace, so off I go! I was just mad I wouldn't be remembered forever and my puppets would be useful!!!11" I was expecting them to be more of a challenge, mentally anyway.

I did like how Edo Tensei Zabuza was willing to cut through Haku to kill Kakashi though. That's what I want, not Asuma being all "HEY GUISE, DODGE MY ATTACKS!!1"

[Franckie]

The major problem with Edo Tensei is that the justu seemingly has no drawback other than extensive preparation. Generally the author makes techniques fairly balanced by bestowing upon them necessary drawbacks, but Edo Tensei appears to break this trend. Kabuto's version is a real gamebreaker and the manga itself lampshades this fact when Kabuto mentioned Edo Tensei as being 1 of the 2 techniques that make him "invincible".

Kishimoto could have given the technique any number of drawbacks - limited time, super chakra exhausting, the seal being needed to bind the souls, etc. - but what does he do? BONDS!!! That's right. BONDS can defeat Edo Tensei. WTF is this crap?! BONDS defeating a jutsu that forces dead souls to do you bidding? It's an epic copout and an epic asspull all rolled into one package.

[Jessie]

The major problem with Edo Tensei is that the justu seemingly has no drawback other than extensive preparation. Generally the author makes techniques fairly balanced by bestowing upon them necessary drawbacks, but Edo Tensei appears to break this trend. Kabuto's version is a real gamebreaker and the manga itself lampshades this fact when Kabuto mentioned Edo Tensei as being 1 of the 2 techniques that make him "invincible".

Kishimoto could have given the technique any number of drawbacks - limited time, super chakra exhausting, the seal being needed to bind the souls, etc. - but what does he do? BONDS!!! That's right. BONDS can defeat Edo Tensei. WTF is this crap?! BONDS defeating a jutsu that forces dead souls to do you bidding? It's an epic copout and an epic asspull all rolled into one package.

The only thing more dangerous than bonds to Edo Tensei is cloth. If Kabuto and Madara could of destroyed all the ninja textile mills before the war, than they might of had a chance.

[jorped]

I like the way Naruto is going, i think that edo tensei was a good choice to make this war more interesting, but i would never had went that way if i hadn't everything well planned and at least until now , it seems that there exist some incoherencies on the all et stuff.
The only part until now that i really disliked in all this war , was the chapter that the 7 swordsmen were introduced with their swords! for me it was in all this 2 years and half that i have been following Naruto , the worst chapter ever!
About the all et summons i am not being 100% happy with it , cuz has i already mentioned i still hope that kishi explains this better and i also would love to see better fights!!! until now any of the fights that i saw i can't consider fantastic , they were just pretty normal!
I just hope that this doesn't happen with the kages fight!
I am still waiting for a memorable fight!

[Zeltrax]

Of course, just having the zetsubies fighting is not entertaining.
Too bad summoning the dead and having them fight is also not entertaining.
The thing with Naruto now is that the enemies is not as interesting. I call the fight with the twin fox brothers dull and boring and then the 7 swordsmen was a lame last-minute pull and they deserved a grander entrance.
The enemies now feel like "eh..whatever.." for me, including the dead because I didn't feel anything from Sai's battle nor anything from Asuma's.
It feels like Kishimoto is sucking out everything and taking everything from the past to put in this arc but he is doing it in the way that is boring and failed to make anyone really interested.
The only bad guys I care about is Madara and Kabuto
I was yawning all the way throughout the twin fox fight or whatever.