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Thread: Technique vs. Technique

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Technique vs. Technique

    This is the thread where we put two techniques and see which would beat the other. It requires logical analysis and no biased opinions. The techs put forward also have the character stated because another player might have a different variation of the tech. The tech battle cannot have been in the manga or anime.

    First: Atobe's Hametsu e no Rondo vs. Fuji's Higuma Otoshi
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Maybe to get things started... Shiraishi managed to knock Fuji's racket away with a regular smash vs Higmua Otoshi. Shiraishi has a 3.5 in both Power and Technique, whereas Atobe has a 4 in Power and a 3.5 in Technique, so Atobe's stats are slightly better here.

    Not saying that that's all there is to it, but it should be taken into consideration.

    On a side note, when is a battle over? When no one has anything to add for a specific amount of time? Maybe you want to add a poll?

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    Maybe to get things started... Shiraishi managed to knock Fuji's racket away with a regular smash vs Higmua Otoshi. Shiraishi has a 3.5 in both Power and Technique, whereas Atobe has a 4 in Power and a 3.5 in Technique, so Atobe's stats are slightly better here.

    Not saying that that's all there is to it, but it should be taken into consideration.

    On a side note, when is a battle over? When no one has anything to add for a specific amount of time? Maybe you want to add a poll?
    Chaos, I'm not even sure if it's just that, especially because Shiraishi's Bible has particular effect against Fuji's basic triple counters. Tachibana also knocks Fuji's racket away, so...

    We never see normal or demon Kirihara knock the racket out of Fuji's hand, not even when using Fire. All that happens is that a hole is blown in Fuji's gut, but Fuji still returns the ball without losing his grip on the racket and then proceeds to return Fire with the side of his racket. However, during the Fuji vs Kirihara match, we also learned that if a smash comes from a short enough distance, Fuji can't use Higuma Otoshi to return it, as evidenced by Kirihara hitting him in the head and temporarily blinding him.

    Hametsu e no Rondo works by knocking the racket away by being aimed at the grip. Tezuka can overcome the first smash by using Tezuka Zone to return the ball with the face of the racket; Fuji doesn't have such a move to alter the path of Hametsu e no Rondo.

    http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/150/om/12/ It technically doesn't state that Tezuka uses the Tezuka Zone for the first shot, but as he's using it for the second smash, and no one else is able to alter the path of the first smash, I'm assuming that it's Tezuka Zone.

    If the Hamestu e no Rondo were aimed straight at Fuji's hand, in a manner similar to how Kirihara smashes, I believe that Fuji's racket would be blown out of his hand without Fuji being able to use Higuma Otoshi. However, if Fuji was farther back in the court and attempted to use Higuma Otoshi, I believe that he'd be able to return it.

    I think that it's mainly dependent on the distance between Atobe and Fuji. So, I'm saying it's 50/50.

    However, I will go out on a limb and say that Kirin Otoshi would be able to return Hametsu e no Rondo 100% of the time. I'm going to say that if Atobe had the Shitsui e no Fugue, even though I think Fuji would be able to return the Hamestu e no Rondo with Kirin Otoshi, he wouldn't be able to return Shitsui e no Fugue.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Chaos, I'm not even sure if it's just that, especially because Shiraishi's Bible has particular effect against Fuji's basic triple counters. Tachibana also knocks Fuji's racket away, so...
    What effect are you refering to exactly?

    Also, even though we didn't get to see his stat sheet, I think it's safe to assume that Tachibana's Power stat is pretty high (probably at least a 4).

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    We never see normal or demon Kirihara knock the racket out of Fuji's hand, not even when using Fire. All that happens is that a hole is blown in Fuji's gut, but Fuji still returns the ball without losing his grip on the racket and then proceeds to return Fire with the side of his racket. However, during the Fuji vs Kirihara match, we also learned that if a smash comes from a short enough distance, Fuji can't use Higuma Otoshi to return it, as evidenced by Kirihara hitting him in the head and temporarily blinding him.
    Kirihara's smash probably didn't knock the racket away because his Power is only 2.5, and that's for the selection camp, in Kanto it might have been a 2.5 in Bloodshot Mode.

    You're probably right about the distance thing though.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Hametsu e no Rondo works by knocking the racket away by being aimed at the grip. Tezuka can overcome the first smash by using Tezuka Zone to return the ball with the face of the racket; Fuji doesn't have such a move to alter the path of Hametsu e no Rondo.

    http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/150/om/12/ It technically doesn't state that Tezuka uses the Tezuka Zone for the first shot, but as he's using it for the second smash, and no one else is able to alter the path of the first smash, I'm assuming that it's Tezuka Zone.
    Either that or the anime is actually correct about something and he lowered his racket slightly, which is something Fuji might be able to replicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    If the Hamestu e no Rondo were aimed straight at Fuji's hand, in a manner similar to how Kirihara smashes, I believe that Fuji's racket would be blown out of his hand without Fuji being able to use Higuma Otoshi. However, if Fuji was farther back in the court and attempted to use Higuma Otoshi, I believe that he'd be able to return it.

    I think that it's mainly dependent on the distance between Atobe and Fuji. So, I'm saying it's 50/50.
    In that case, Atobe could simply avoid Higuma Otoshi by aiming into the front court like Shiraishi did, but I guess we don't care about that here.

    That being said, Hametsu e no Rondo is meant to hit the grip with the first smash, which is probably not doable when Fuji prepares for Higuma Otoshi by repositioning. Assuming he can hit the grip, I'd say he could knock Fuji's racket away, regardless of distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    However, I will go out on a limb and say that Kirin Otoshi would be able to return Hametsu e no Rondo 100% of the time. I'm going to say that if Atobe had the Shitsui e no Fugue, even though I think Fuji would be able to return the Hamestu e no Rondo with Kirin Otoshi, he wouldn't be able to return Shitsui e no Fugue.
    I agree that Houou Gaeshi could probably return the first part of Hametsu e no Rondo, but as the first parts of Rondo and Fugue are identical, I don't see why it wouldn't work against that too (just to clarify, I'm only adressing the first part here where Atobe tries to hit the opponent's grip).

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    What effect are you refering to exactly?

    Also, even though we didn't get to see his stat sheet, I think it's safe to assume that Tachibana's Power stat is pretty high (probably at least a 4).
    What I mean is that Shiraishi's tennis is very clean, and the first forms of the triple counters all have obvious weaknesses, which the exactitude of the Bible can take advantage of. However, the evolved forms of the Triple Counters all defeat the Bible because they lack the same weaknesses.

    I'll agree that Tachibana has a Power of at least 3.5, which is what Shiraishi has, at the minimum. It's fair to say that Tachibana probably has a Power of at least 4 as he does play a bit of power tennis to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    Kirihara's smash probably didn't knock the racket away because his Power is only 2.5, and that's for the selection camp, in Kanto it might have been a 2.5 in Bloodshot Mode.

    You're probably right about the distance thing though.
    So, for the purposes of this, is it fair to say that it requires a Power of at least 3.5 to blow the racket out of Fuji's hand when he's using Higuma Otoshi?

    When Shiraishi takes off the golden gauntlet, all of his stats increase, so in reality, Shiraishi has a Power of 3.5 with the gauntlet on, but at least 4 or 4.5 Power with the gauntlet off.

    Atobe has a Power of 3.5, which, if Shiraishi's example can be accepted, would mean that Atobe could defeat Higuma Otoshi regardless of whether he hits the grip or Fuji uses Higuma Otoshi.

    I guess it depends on whether you want to say that it's the Bible which allows Shiraishi to defeat Higuma Otoshi, or whether it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 or higher that's required to defeat Higuma Otoshi.

    Tezuka has a Power of 3.5 (therefore so does Niou's illusion of Tezuka), and instead of using Higuma Otoshi against Niou, Fuji uses Kirin Otoshi, so that does give credence to the idea that it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 that's required to knock away Higuma Otoshi.

    If that is truly the case, however, then you have to ask why when Tezuka took Hametsu e no Rondo on the face of his racket, his racket wasn't blown away. It could be as simple as Tezuka's grip power is stronger than Fuji's, and the lack of grip power is the reason that Kirihara can't use Wind.

    Actually, when Kirihara uses Fire, he's not even in Bloodshot Mode.

    So, you can't really pin down the Power stat he has when using Bloodshot Mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    Either that or the anime is actually correct about something and he lowered his racket slightly, which is something Fuji might be able to replicate.
    It could be. If Tezuka actually lowered his racket slightly, then Fuji could probably replicate it. I'm sure that Yukimura would have a method of returning Hametsu e no Rondo; it might be the bottom of the handle thing he used to return Rai.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    In that case, Atobe could simply avoid Higuma Otoshi by aiming into the front court like Shiraishi did, but I guess we don't care about that here.

    That being said, Hametsu e no Rondo is meant to hit the grip with the first smash, which is probably not doable when Fuji prepares for Higuma Otoshi by repositioning. Assuming he can hit the grip, I'd say he could knock Fuji's racket away, regardless of distance.
    If he avoided Higuma Otoshi, then Fuji might not even touch the ball, but we're not worrying about, I suppose. If Atobe can hit the grip, yeah, he can knock Fuji's racket away. However, if Fuji gets into the Higuma Otoshi position/stance, it's not really clear if Atobe could hit the grip.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    I agree that Houou Gaeshi could probably return the first part of Hametsu e no Rondo, but as the first parts of Rondo and Fugue are identical, I don't see why it wouldn't work against that too (just to clarify, I'm only adressing the first part here where Atobe tries to hit the opponent's grip).
    Chaos, it's Kirin Otoshi. :P

    I wasn't clear. I was calling the first part of Fugue the Rondo, as in just Rondo, the second part's just a regular smash. The Fugue would be hard for anyone to return.

    Atobe's speed is 3, and Tezuka's speed is 3, and Niou's illusion of Tezuka is able to get back in time to return Hakuryuu. That would imply to me that it would be possible to return Higuma Otoshi without something such as the Shukuchiho (or however it's spelled). Niou's illusion of Tezuka just uses Tezuka Zone to return Kirin Otoshi.

    In the end, it's not as if Atobe uses the Hametsu e no Rondo to win a match or anything, it's more used to demoralize an opponent. In a match between Fuji and Atobe, it would depend on whether Closed Eyes can defeat World of Ice and/or Atobe Kingdom, and whether or not Atobe could find a way to counter Hecatoncheires and Hoshi Hanabi, not whether Higuma/Kirin Otoshi could defeat Hametsu e no Rondo.
    Last edited by FrostyMouse; April 17, 2011 at 04:31 PM.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    What I mean is that Shiraishi's tennis is very clean, and the first forms of the triple counters all have obvious weaknesses, which the exactitude of the Bible can take advantage of. However, the evolved forms of the Triple Counters all defeat the Bible because they lack the same weaknesses.
    I see, I thought you were refering to something that only affects the Triple Counters, my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    So, for the purposes of this, is it fair to say that it requires a Power of at least 3.5 to blow the racket out of Fuji's hand when he's using Higuma Otoshi?
    Not necessarily at least 3.5, as we didn't see anyone with a 3 try it yet, but I think we can agree on that it's possible with a 3.5.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    When Shiraishi takes off the golden gauntlet, all of his stats increase, so in reality, Shiraishi has a Power of 3.5 with the gauntlet on, but at least 4 or 4.5 Power with the gauntlet off.

    Atobe has a Power of 3.5, which, if Shiraishi's example can be accepted, would mean that Atobe could defeat Higuma Otoshi regardless of whether he hits the grip or Fuji uses Higuma Otoshi.

    I guess it depends on whether you want to say that it's the Bible which allows Shiraishi to defeat Higuma Otoshi, or whether it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 or higher that's required to defeat Higuma Otoshi.
    He didn't hit any specific spot or anything as far as I can see, and as Tachibana used the same method to counter Higuma Otoshi, I think it's safe to say that power is one way to counter it. Even if the ball were to return (it's not entirely clear against Shiraishi I think), Hametsu e no Rondo is a 2 part smash, so that wouldn't be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Tezuka has a Power of 3.5 (therefore so does Niou's illusion of Tezuka), and instead of using Higuma Otoshi against Niou, Fuji uses Kirin Otoshi, so that does give credence to the idea that it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 that's required to knock away Higuma Otoshi.
    I don't really want to get into Illusion right now, but I wouldn't assume that Niou can copy stats with it (we discussed Illusion some time ago on JAC, I can show you a summary if you want).

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    If that is truly the case, however, then you have to ask why when Tezuka took Hametsu e no Rondo on the face of his racket, his racket wasn't blown away. It could be as simple as Tezuka's grip power is stronger than Fuji's, and the lack of grip power is the reason that Kirihara can't use Wind.
    It doesn't seem far-fetched to assume that Tezuka has a stronger grip than Fuji.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Actually, when Kirihara uses Fire, he's not even in Bloodshot Mode.

    So, you can't really pin down the Power stat he has when using Bloodshot Mode.
    Thanks, I was too lazy to check that one. What I was trying to say is that even though Kirihara's power was displayed as 2.5, it might have been lower in Kanto, so that depending on how much BM increases it, it was probably still lower than 3.5.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    If he avoided Higuma Otoshi, then Fuji might not even touch the ball, but we're not worrying about, I suppose. If Atobe can hit the grip, yeah, he can knock Fuji's racket away. However, if Fuji gets into the Higuma Otoshi position/stance, it's not really clear if Atobe could hit the grip.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Chaos, it's Kirin Otoshi. :P
    >_>;;

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Atobe's speed is 3, and Tezuka's speed is 3, and Niou's illusion of Tezuka is able to get back in time to return Hakuryuu. That would imply to me that it would be possible to return Higuma Otoshi without something such as the Shukuchiho (or however it's spelled). Niou's illusion of Tezuka just uses Tezuka Zone to return Kirin Otoshi.
    First of all, I think that's supposed to be Hakugei...

    Secondly, Niou is hitting it while it's rising, which would imply that he's still pretty close to the net. The Speed needed to return Kirin Otoshi is probably at least 4 or 4.5.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    In the end, it's not as if Atobe uses the Hametsu e no Rondo to win a match or anything, it's more used to demoralize an opponent. In a match between Fuji and Atobe, it would depend on whether Closed Eyes can defeat World of Ice and/or Atobe Kingdom, and whether or not Atobe could find a way to counter Hecatoncheires and Hoshi Hanabi, not whether Higuma/Kirin Otoshi could defeat Hametsu e no Rondo.
    Yeah.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    I see, I thought you were refering to something that only affects the Triple Counters, my bad.
    It's not as if Shiraishi's the only one whose tennis is effective at exploiting the weaknesses in the original Triple Counters, or returning them, but his style is just very effective against the original Triple Counters. Shiraishi's unable to return any of the evolved Triple Counters.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    Not necessarily at least 3.5, as we didn't see anyone with a 3 try it yet, but I think we can agree on that it's possible with a 3.5.
    All right.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    He didn't hit any specific spot or anything as far as I can see, and as Tachibana used the same method to counter Higuma Otoshi, I think it's safe to say that power is one way to counter it. Even if the ball were to return (it's not entirely clear against Shiraishi I think), Hametsu e no Rondo is a 2 part smash, so that wouldn't be a problem.
    That's more or less how I saw it. With a Power of 3.5, although the racket is blown away, Fuji still returns the ball with Higuma Otoshi, but as you said, that wouldn't be a problem for Hametsu e no Rondo.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    I don't really want to get into Illusion right now, but I wouldn't assume that Niou can copy stats with it (we discussed Illusion some time ago on JAC, I can show you a summary if you want).
    I think I'd read that discussion once, but I still disagree at least to some extent. Niou would need a boost in Technique in order to be able to utilize the Tezuka Zone and Zero-Shiki Drop shot. Sure, he doesn't have the ability to use the Zero-Shiki Serve, so it's not as if he's a perfect copy, but I think that he gets some boost to his stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    It doesn't seem far-fetched to assume that Tezuka has a stronger grip than Fuji.
    It would seem to make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    Thanks, I was too lazy to check that one. What I was trying to say is that even though Kirihara's power was displayed as 2.5, it might have been lower in Kanto, so that depending on how much BM increases it, it was probably still lower than 3.5.
    Yeah, it's probably less than 3.5, plus as the Muga was draining his stamina, his power might have decreased even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    First of all, I think that's supposed to be Hakugei...

    Secondly, Niou is hitting it while it's rising, which would imply that he's still pretty close to the net. The Speed needed to return Kirin Otoshi is probably at least 4 or 4.5.
    Well, it may actually supposed to have been Hakugei, but the translation says that it's Hakuryuu, so I was going with the translation on that one.

    http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/9/
    http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/10/

    Well, I interpreted that panel as Niou jumping backward and that the Hakuryuu has started to fall. The ball on the right is higher than the ball to the left of it, so I interpreted that as falling, and if the ball was still rising at that point, it would be too high for Niou to hit.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Well, it may actually supposed to have been Hakugei, but the translation says that it's Hakuryuu, so I was going with the translation on that one.

    http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/9/
    http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/10/

    Well, I interpreted that panel as Niou jumping backward and that the Hakuryuu has started to fall. The ball on the right is higher than the ball to the left of it, so I interpreted that as falling, and if the ball was still rising at that point, it would be too high for Niou to hit.
    Yeah, that's possible. I remembered Hakuryuu having a slightly different course at the beginning, but I think I was mistaken there, my bad.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    So is this a tie? 50-50 chance of returning?
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    So is this a tie? 50-50 chance of returning?
    Yeah, that's what I'd say.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    So is this a tie? 50-50 chance of returning?
    I'd go with a slight advantage for Hametu e no Rondo, like 60% or 65% chance of success. But if you want to list it as a tie, I won't argue against that.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    I'd go with a slight advantage for Hametu e no Rondo, like 60% or 65% chance of success. But if you want to list it as a tie, I won't argue against that.
    Hmm, that is fair, I suppose, because there is the possibility that Atobe would just be able to blow Fuji's racket away.

    At the very least, there's no clear winner.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Hmm, I seem to have come in rather late XD But I think you two might be placing a little bit too much stock by the ratings given. Just because Atobe has a 3.5 Power stat doesn't mean every single shot is at that kind of power. His Hametsu e no Rondo isn't a smash that relies on power, but on accuracy to knock the racket out of the hand.

    And we can't simply say that 3.5 Power players+ can break Higuma Otoshi. I mean, when Ryoma first played Fuji, and tried to smash it, Momoshiro said that even his Dunk Smash wouldn't work on Fuji because of Higuma Otoshi. And I think it's safe to say that the Dunk Smash is a more powerful than Hametsu e no Rondo (or at least the first part). So I think it's also safe to say that it's not just pure power that breaks Higuma Otoshi. Maybe Shiraishi's smash also had a good top spin on it to make it an extremely heavy ball as well, and that with the power of it as well made it blow the racket away.

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    I cba to read the previous long posts, but surely Hametsu e no Rondo hits the wrist (which is definitely not Fuji's sweetspot), so Hametsu e no Rondo wins?

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    Re: Technique vs. Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by FujiNumberOne View Post
    Hmm, I seem to have come in rather late XD But I think you two might be placing a little bit too much stock by the ratings given. Just because Atobe has a 3.5 Power stat doesn't mean every single shot is at that kind of power. His Hametsu e no Rondo isn't a smash that relies on power, but on accuracy to knock the racket out of the hand.

    And we can't simply say that 3.5 Power players+ can break Higuma Otoshi. I mean, when Ryoma first played Fuji, and tried to smash it, Momoshiro said that even his Dunk Smash wouldn't work on Fuji because of Higuma Otoshi. And I think it's safe to say that the Dunk Smash is a more powerful than Hametsu e no Rondo (or at least the first part). So I think it's also safe to say that it's not just pure power that breaks Higuma Otoshi. Maybe Shiraishi's smash also had a good top spin on it to make it an extremely heavy ball as well, and that with the power of it as well made it blow the racket away.
    Just because Hametsu e no Rondo is an accurate smash doesn't mean that it's not powerful. There are plenty of instances in the series where there are accurate powerfully hit shots.

    We weren't at all saying that just because Shiraishi knocked the racket out of Fuji's hand while using Higuma Otoshi meant that every shot a player who has 3.5+ Power will be at the level. We were saying that it appeared to be one possibility to defeat Higuma Otoshi.

    When Ryoma first plays Fuji, Momoshiro hadn't leveled up all that much, so he might not have had 3.5+ Power at that point. At this point in the series, yes, Momoshiro clearly has over 3.5 Power, but that's not what matters.

    Seeing as the Bible can accurately target the weaknesses of the original Triple Counters, it's a possibility that it could be Shiraishi that is extra effective. However, what you're ignoring is that Tachibana also knocks Fuji's racket away when Fuji's using Higuma Otoshi; admittedly, Tachibana does seem to play with heavy top spin.

    It's not as if we said Atobe's winning this battle. We just said that it was probably 50/50, with a possible slight edge to Atobe. Plus, Kirin Otoshi almost certainly dominates Hametsu e no Rondo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
    I cba to read the previous long posts, but surely Hametsu e no Rondo hits the wrist (which is definitely not Fuji's sweetspot), so Hametsu e no Rondo wins?
    Well, the idea I came up with is that if Hametsu e no Rondo comes from a short enough distance (akin to how Kirihara smashes Fuji in the head, which implies that Higuma Otoshi requires Fuji to be a certain distance away from the opponent), Atobe would probably be able to hit Fuji's grip. However, if Fuji were far enough back in the court, he'd probably be able to get into the Higuma Otoshi position/stance and return Hametsu e no Rondo.
    Last edited by FrostyMouse; April 19, 2011 at 01:44 AM.

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