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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
But if you say that maybe Momoshiro hadn't evolved his Dunk Smash to 3.5+ yet, you can make the same argument for Fuji's Higuma Otoshi. And like you said, Tachibana plays with heavy top spin, and top spin makes balls heavier and harder to deal with.
And also, I wasn't saying that Atobe's first part must not be powerful because it's accurate. I'm just saying it seems to sacrifice power for accuracy (in this case), because no players seems to be too injured by it despite multiple uses, and Tezuka was able to return it since he got his racket face on it (with seemingly no effects on his grip), despite his hurt shoulder. So I would assume that a move that uses centripetal force to nullify power would also be able to return it.
I agree that it's not a clear cut 100% to 0%, but I would give the edge to Fuji, about 65% or 70%.
@Bowser: It doesn't hit the opponent's hand, it hits the racket handle close to the hand. If it hit the opponent's hand, there would be no need for the second part, because if a player is hit by the ball, it's automatically the other person's point.
Momoshiro's Dunk Smash clearly improves in power throughout the series. When Tezuka plays Momo, he talks about how Momo now has strength and power in his jump, and if you remember the St. Rudolph match, Momo's Dunk Smash has clearly powered up as he knocks out Yanagisawa. The Fuji vs Ryoma match occurs after that, so Momo wouldn't be aware of whether he could power through Higuma Otoshi or not.
Last edited by FrostyMouse; April 19, 2011 at 01:54 AM.
Just to add to the part about Momoshiro, remember that he was able to knock away Oshitari's racket when Oshitari used Higuma Otoshi in the Nationals.
Also, if we assume Shiraishi was able to knock Fuji's racket away only because of Bible, and that one would normally need more power than that, Atobe's Insight should have the same effect.
Apart from this, I think FrostyMouse covered everything I would have said.
So based on all CURRENT information, Atobe's Hametsu e no Rondo has a 65% approximate chance of breaking through Fuji's Higuma Otoshi.
Kawamura's Final Hadoukyuu vs Sanada's Quiet like the Forest
I did read your conversation before hand, but I think it's kind of unfair just to assume that Tezuka has stronger grip strength, especially considering that his shoulder was being pressured throughout that entire game. And when you compare Fuji using a move that nullifies power by using centripetal force and Tezuka taking the smash head-on, it seems much more likely that Fuji would be able to keep hold on his racket. So I think that if Tezuka could, then Fuji would be able to as well.
I do think that chaos brings up a good point about Atobe's insight though. Atobe could see through the weakness of Higuma Otoshi, but would he be able to use Hametsu e no Rondo to take advantage of that weakness? I'm willing to personally bring it back to an even 50/50, but I don't think that Hametsu e no Rondo should have a greater percentage. But oh well, I seem to have been defeated in this one.
I'll have to get farther in my re-reading of the series for Kawamura's FH and Sanada's QLTF. I can't completely remember about QLTF, but didn't the original Hadoukyuu creator say that FH was stronger than his highest level Hadoukyuu? I can't remember for sure.
That being said, I think naming it Final Hadokyuu when it's actually something different is a bit misleading, so anyone has an idea for a different name?
Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.
It's all explained in Chapter 331.
Inui explains that it's not a Hadokyuu, so Gin couldn't neutralize it.
Honestly, I don't think that this is even a good matchup. As Tezuka doesn't use any "power shots" in his match with Sanada, you're never able to see the extent of what Forest can do.
Renji describes that Forest utterly defeats him, which raises a real question about Sanada's true power. Without Forest, Renji's comment almost makes it appear as if he'd beat Sanada.
Fire's attacks crush Kirihara and Atobe's tennis can't beat the defense of Mountain.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that there's enough use of either the "Final Hadokyuu" or Rin in order to actually have this discussion. I think that Sanada would probably just use Fire to counter the Final Hadokyuu, not Rin. It's only when Yukimura tells Sanada to will he use Rin in a head-on challenge, which Kawamura would present with the FH.
Rin's effective against Renji for whatever reason, but I won't even give a number for whether Rin can defeat FH. The "logic" of PoT would say that Rin should be able to defeat FH because Sanada's techniques are on such a high level, but in an actual match, who knows. In order to break Kawamura's serve (in truth, to get even one point off of Kawamura's serve), Sanada would need to be able to return the FH. Due to the fact that Sanada is a much higher tier player than Kawamura, Sanada finds some method to return it, even if it's the KaRinRai combo move that he uses to return the Zero-Shiki Serve.
So we have no outcome for this due to a lack of information. I think this one might work.
Tezuka's Tezuka Phantom vs. Fuji's Fifth Counter: Hecatoncheires no Monban
Hecatoncheires doesn't need to aim for a corner in an attempt to beat Tezuka off the court, it just lands in the middle of the court, sort of like Rin, so I don't think Tezuka Phantom could direct the ball out of the court that easily.
However, Niou's Illusion of Tezuka is able to hit a ball for a clean winner without touching the net against Hecatoncheires, which would mean that if Niou's imperfect Illusion can break Hecatoncheires, so could the real Tezuka. In that case, Tezuka wouldn't use Phantom to counter Hecatoncheires as he can just hit it over the net.
Ignoring that, and ignoring PoP Tezuka vs Fuji, I think that Hecatoncheires beats Tezuka Phantom.
I just find that this comparison wouldn't have a chance of taking place, and even if one technique beats another, characters do have a stable of techniques for a reason, after all. If Hecatoncheires does beat Tezuka Phantom, Tezuka could just switch to attempting to hit it over the net, which we know that he's capable of.
Last edited by FrostyMouse; April 22, 2011 at 05:08 PM.
I think it depends where on the court Fuji hits Hecatoncheires. Sanada's Rin, although it's not clear what it actually does, only goes a tiny bit into the court; it's hit very short. TPhantom pulls out Rai and GUYU pretty easily, but both of those shots go to the edge of the court, so it wouldn't be that difficult. I seriously doubt if TPhantom can pull out a shot that's hit like Rin. I don't think TPhantom can pull out a drop shot or one of Fuji's cord ball drops. I theorize that TPhantom needs space to work with.
TPhantom might be able to pull Hecatoncheires out of the court, as it goes to the middle of the court, so it wouldn't be that hard. I'd give TPhantom a 65% chance of pulling out Hecatoncheires.
FrostyMouse, I'm kind of confused. It seems like you're arguing for Hecatoncheires, but then you say Tezuka Phantom has the upper hand...
I'm kind of giving it a 50/50, but not for the regular reasons. I'm not saying that TPhantom has 50% chance of pushing Hecatoncheires out of the court. I think it actually has a very low chance. Hecatoncheires is a technique that pretty much puts a piss ton of spin on the ball. TPhantom works the same way. So if Tezuka hits TPhantom, the ball has a certain spin on it that would force most shots out. But then Fuji puts a ton of slice on the ball, and I think that would do enough to cancel out the TPhantom spin enough to get the ball in the court.
But, like I said, it's kind of 50/50. The reason I'm saying that is because with most of Hecatoncheires's spin being used to cancel out TPhantom's spin, the ball might go in, but I don't think it will have enough spin on it anymore to force it into the net. So I think Hecatoncheires would basically just be a way to break TPhantom, not a way to win the point. That's why I'm going with 50/50.
I firmly believe that Hecatoncheires is a better technique than TPhantom as it doesn't kill your arm like TPhantom does; however, good enough players, such as Tezuka, can hit the ball cleanly over the net against Hecatoncheires without creating a cord ball. Technically, you only get to see Niou's Illusion of Tezuka doing that, but as Niou's Illusion can, obviously Tezuka can.
What I'm truly saying is that based on how Tezuka and Fuji play, if Tezuka uses TPhantom, I can't really see Fuji using Hecatoncheires; I'd see him more using a cord ball drop or something, or possibly Kagerou Zutsumi. In actuality, TPhantom pulls out GUYU, and it's hit to roughly the same part of the court as Hecatoncheires is, and GUYU's ball sort of dies as it is.
If Fuji used Hecatoncheires, and then Tezuka returned it with TPhantom, Tezuka's ball will cross the net, and then Fuji needs to make a return. If Tezuka uses TPhantom, and then Fuji's return is Hecatoncheires, regardless of whether or not Fuji returns it inside in the boundaries of the court, which could be likely, Tezuka still hits a clean return.
What I'm really trying to say is that TPhantom and Hecatoncheires aren't techniques that match up each against each other. In the first match up, Hametsu e no Rondo and Higuma Otoshi both deal with smashes, so it's a perfectly legitimate comparison, but TPhantom and Hecatoncheires just don't oppose each other in the same way.
I'd personally prefer to see Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami vs. World of Ice/Atobe Kingdom.