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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
For one, utilizing another series to act as a patsy to support adoration of another is revealing of a poorly thought out argument. And as much as I used to really love DGM, it is not character or plot driven. It is theme driven. It is drawn to evoke emotional reaction, and consideration of God, the universe and sandwiches. I mean, where else can I go to find longwinded discussions about what Neogyps really means, or long analyses containing references to random Christian theology to derive a plotline for a manga?
I really disagree that DGM is about the plot because truly, what have we learned that's new in chapters 207-211? We got a bunch of fluff pages shouting exactly nothing and only re-initializing the set-up for Allen to have some friends nearby while he battles the 14th in his subconsciousness. (I leave out chapter 212, since that one was nice and meaty plot-wise, with Link and Levellie.) I mean, he supposedly went to Baba's place, but what did he do there? Just "hi, dropping by, can I have some clothes? kthnxbai"? We weren't even given a few pages, the most we'll ever get is a flashback. Why couldn't Hoshino leave that out for later on, keeping it for a future sidestory, and doing some concrete plot clean up on the organization of the Order and Noah post-Allen kidnap. There's plenty of details she can throw in, but she's obsessed with a specific way of writing the story, and it's not as good without these details.
The big problem I see with DGM is it's not confronting plot. It's dancing around common sense, avoiding the direct path just to cover some emotional ground (like Johnny's emotional turmoil and Kanda's powerup.) I mean, the Order letting Kanda suddenly escape? Especially when their defenses would be at peak alert, given the last incident where Allen and the Noahs escape? And then we needed 5 chapters to make Allen a victim of the 14th again, when the same thing happened with the Apocryphos. I think that's a tad repetitive.
Now, this isn't to say that I don't like DGM. I really enjoyed it's Golden Age, particularly the Lavi arc. It evoked a lot of shounen strengths and subversions. But then it lost the ground it started on. How long has it been since we saw Level 2 akuma, let alone Level 1's? How long has it been since we saw a case of an akuma being created? DGM has lunged into the political intrigues of the Noah, but in order to preserve foreshadowing, the story dances around them.
Er, a little bird told me that Sq. 19 is coming out this month, and supposedly DGM will have a side-story or something. Can someone confirm this?
Btw, this is the link to the SQ Lab index image from JQ site (I think): http://jumpsq.shueisha.co.jp/contents/sq19/index.html
I don't know if anyone's noticed but mangastream is playing Red Light Green Light with Jump.
If they pull it off it's safe to say they're back in business.
@Earthforge: Okay, first of all, sorry for making you feel sad, I was in a rush and fealt compelled to give my two cents on the matter which could of resulted in me comming across as a bit blunt, however I do not take back what I said. Not like I can anyway.
Secondly you clearly misinterpreted what I was trying to accomplish with that post. In that I was defending/ just flat out describing Ao no Exorcist not bashing it nor belittling it to D gray man ( even though I think D gray man is better its just my opinion as we are all entitled to our opinions). However whilst I was defending Ao no Exorcist as a potentially good series I did not intend to add any fluff to what it is in fact (or what i strongly believe to be fact). After all, if a series is really good why do I need to tell a lie to promote it and spoil my credibility on a personal and public scale. Perhaps the way I said this may have been offensive to you but for this I can only offer an apology. But as I said this is not for the basis of the point I had made, this is just for the way I said it.
Thirdly if you ask why I compared the quality of "intriguing characters" in Ao no Exorcist to that in D gray man I was just doing what came naturally to me if I were convincing a person who reads D gray man (hence why you are in a d gray man forum) to read Ao no Exorcist as well as to describe it to someone who is perhaps not updated with the series as I am but is updated with d gray man and perhaps prefers certain aspects constituting of d gray man's formula that are otherwise absent from Ao no Exorcist. As I said before I don't add fluff to my descriptions I just state what I deem factual. Because if that's how I see it the that's how i'll say it. I really don't see anything wrong with that. Also bare in mind I did not say that Ao no Exorcist has bad characters, I said that its characters, whether on a genaral scale or in their entirety are more or less not intriguing. Which is natural as you yourself confirmed that this series is not a necessarily plot oriented one for the most part or so far as I had emphasized even going as far to say that I did not believe D gray man started out that hot either but turned out to be one of my favorites. Indicating that the same is possible for ao no exorcist. Its still a fairly new series and obviously hasn't been around long enough to display anything to create that much of a significant impression on me personally.
Fourthly I agree with some of the points you made but most of them- not really. Example: D gray man is not a plot oriented series!? I honestly don't even see how this is possible. You seem to be judging d gray man on the basis of things that appeal specifically to you and not the overarching sum of series. True it has been no secret since DAY I - CHAPTER 1 that Hoshino likes to play ringaringa rosey around getting certain plot revalations and sticks religiously to her scheme of writing over everything else. But on the contrary, Hoshino's writing scheme is actually the biggest giveaway to exposing d gray man as what I like to call a massive plot barrel. This writing style is exactly what allows intriguing characters and intrigue in general to surface. Once a level of intrigue can be maintained this by itself supports the point that D gray man is undoubtedly a plot driven series. Also as it relates to chapters 207-211 its as I said before, this is but a meager piece of the whole sum that is d gray man and you seem to be forgetting that a good chapter of any series does not constitute shoving plot down someones throat. This may even alternatively ruin this series. Hitting out against this is the equivalent to denying everything that makes D gray man, not necessarily the best Shonen series based on criteria, but definnately one of perhaps the best pressent day ongoing series. The fact that D gray man balances character development, character growth, meaningful character interaction and plot is what i've loved this series for in the first place. Like I said in a previous post D gray man is a manga that constantly reinvents itself. This is a quality that has not changed whether from weekly days or your so called Golden days or its more maturely revamped days. This is in direct proportionality to the plot relevant content we get every month as well as the fact that this manga constantly progresses into different phases and so fails to become too repetitive in order to set up conenient but sencible scenarios for the mangaka to deal with certain aspects of the plot such as the plot revalations you in particular love so much. Long story short writing always should prevail over everything else as it is what allows for the material to be fresh, consistent and entertaining So ask yourself then what, would be the relevance of her bringing in more level 2's and level 1's at this stage. True I admit that I find it strange how level 1's have been so scarce but again Hoshino obviously seems to deal with things in the order of importance not for glamour or nostalgia service.
Sorry for writing a flippin essay but I am glad we are able to have an intelligent debate based on our different perspectives.
I'm a bit confused at saying DGM isn't character driven. It's obviously theme-driven, and while the plot has been muddied at times due to reading it release to release, it's ALWAYS been character driven to me. I can't agree there earthforge.
It's a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, actually. I really didn't intend for anyone to take it that seriously, just a remark of exasperation. I tend to be very sharp when it comes to my viewpoint. Honestly, I am not deliberately attacking you or any DGM fans. Really, I understand "why" you said what you did, it's more of "what" you said that I disagree with. But don't expect me to simply relent.
I did understand you were defending it, but it was a defense that still put down the series IMHO.Quote:
DGM is not a plot series for the main reason that DGM's genesis was a dream. If you think about it from that perspective, what you call "Hoshino's style" is actually the product of DGM coming from a dream. Dreams come in sets of image and dialogue, and usually are disconnected and/or vignettes. This is why Hoshino has long-winded "build up" for plot points or emotional scenes - Hoshino is writing the means to get a poignant scene from her dream. Also why this series has incredible strong points, like Allen's confrontation with Tyki following Suman or Allen's recovery of Innocence (hehe... lol). But this has side-effects, like weakening story-telling over time due to forgetting the original dream. We have seen this happen dramatically, with the plot going from despair creating akuma and the tragedy of the human heart, to the political intrigues of the Noah (which are largely to build up a permutation of "Luke I am your father" for Allen.)Quote:
You act as if there is some grand plan that Hoshino has in store. I don't believe there is. DGM is an interpolation of a dream, Hoshino drawing the lines between the dots that were in her dream. This is why we've gone so far astray from the beginning of the series.Quote:
I do not take issue with the dream itself. I take issue with the lines between that Hoshino draws. I think she could have done a much better job reuniting Kanda, Allen, Johnny and Link. Link's reason/story was the only believable one, because he is an agent of a guy with powerful cards in this manga. Kanda just spontaneously left to watch Alma die, go away, come back to the Order, grab his Innocence + upgrade, and then go with Johnny. There's a much better path to do this. If anything, Kanda should have needed direct assistance to escape, and we should have seen it. This is part of why chapter 193 was so strong, we were able to follow Kanda.
Level 1's should always be around if they're so common. Why are there suddenly a lot of Level 4's? Those are supposed to be rare, but they're the now enemy of the day. Antagonists shouldn't be plot devices, they should have agendas and fears.Quote:
Well since my English is not good enough so I will just talk about DGM here (haven't read AnE anyway)Quote:
I think the reason why we don't see Level 1 anymore is because of the Akuma Egg. The Earl needs that to make Akuma, right? And it was destroyed in chapter 144. If it is that easy to make another egg then the Earl wouldn't waste time sending Lulubell to take it back. In short, the Earl can't make new Level 1 anymore. And after chapter 144 we have 2 timeskip (about 6 months I think, not really sure U_U", one after Cross's disappearance & one after Alma Arc), so old Level 1 might leveled up to higher level by now. And the bear-like Akuma in chapter 210 is a Level 2 I believe.
Honestly I can't think of any reason to make level 1 appear at this level, now even new Exorcist like Timophy can handle a Level 2 easily
I agree with those who suggest that the anime did help Ao no Exorcist's popularity. There's really no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve it! For still being a fairly "new" series compared to DGM(remember, #8 was back when Lenalee fought level 3), it has so far shown great storytelling and character development, in my opinion The pacing can be a little slow, but I personally think that's just the "grudge" of monthly release :P DGM's pace also felt slow when it became monthly.
But I don't get those who compare DGM and Ao no Exorcist and say that DGM is "less boring" than Ao, because that's a very subjective viewpoint and not a good argument when discussing why Ao sells better. Also, those who argue that DGM has a "deeper" plot; that may or may not be true, but what difference does that really make? Not everyone wants a complicated plot
*cough*though I sort of do*cough*, and complexity certainly doesn't give a series higher value. I think Ao's strenght is that it uses all the old shounen-clichés and give them a unique "touch", making it fresh and new in its genre.
Sorry if this didn't comtribute to anything, I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter xD I love both series, with their flaws and all But DGM will probably still remain my absolute favourite forever and ever But that may simply be because I've "grown up" together with it, I don't know I hope for another DGM-anime of some sort in the future~
and another series that deserves crazy popularity in the West is "Magi - the Labyrinth of Magic"; I look forward to the EXPLOSION when that one gets an anime
okay im kinda confused...what is the main plot of dgrayman? find the heart innocence??
like so far im kinda lost...it seems like the main focus is about allen's past...or neahs
like the whole kanda alma arc...y did the noah leave without really accomplishing anything??
and right now?? wtf is the arc??? just allens past?? i think the story is going a bit slow and it seems to have taken random turns throughtout the series..
That's what I find really interesting with DGM. We started out with some set goal: Join the Order, Find innocence/Fight the Earl/Akuma. Then we had a set mission to find Cross, from where we were dragged into an early battle against the Noah. As a bi-product of the war, there was the whole mystery with the ark that had to be solved. Then Lulu's attack on the order. Then having to move base because of the destruction. Then, for some time, it was back to the standard hunting innocence/defeating Akuma. Then one of the missions led into Alma/Kanda's arc. Then Allen's imprisonment and Allen's escape.
Basically, the way i describe DGM's plot is... shit happens?
With AnE, there's an abstract goal: for Rin to be accepted and potentially become a Paladin. But this won't happen in a few arcs - being accepted is an abstract goal and he will have to earn it as the story progresses.
In One Piece, the SH crew has One Piece as their destination, but when they land on an island, they get sucked into a side-issues. Once finishing, they're back sailing towards their destination.
DGM follows more of a life-like style, i think. The original plot was to fight and win the war against the Earl. However, with all this unpredictable/unforseen stuff, the plot and characters change to accommodate the information. I mean, how much more odd it would have been if the Earl just allowed the order to have the Ark and Akuma Egg? Or if both the Order and the Earl decided to ignore Allen's ties with the 14th? Naturally, the plot shifted to focus on the more current issues. At this point, it's more like "screw the war, the issues with the 14th are more important." And yet on the other hand, the only exorcists that are not currently fighting with along side the Order are Allen, Kanda and Lavi. I assume Lenalee and the others are still going on missions and defeating Akuma.
This is exactly what I have tried to tell people so many damn times now. This series evolves based on necessary conditions that are critical to the plot at paticular stages in the series. In my mind d gray man has always been like this and continues to be like this. Its just that I feel people find it hard to identify with this because of the slight differences in tone that happen throughout arcs as well as the difference in the material Hoshino decides to concentrate on. Dgm has never been a static series and before I heard all those negative comments on the Alma arc especially I was honestly under the impression that people would have been a little more understanding of this. I guess I was wrong. The only mark difference that I can identify is that we don't get an equally distributed amount of attention as it relates to the minor characters like Krory, Timothy, Lavi, Lenalee, Maree, Tiedoll(where is he by the way?) etc. But honestly speaking I really don't consider this as important as dealing with the immediate issues that need to be dealt with. My reason for saying this is because with such a huge plot and story Hoshino may most likely forget certain details which leaves plotholes if she doesn't deal with what needs to be dealt with now.