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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Byakuya with ease

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  • Byakuya with difficulty

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  • Shunsui with ease

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Thread: Byakuya vs Shunsui

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    What, Shoot To Kill, I just got done with an elaborate proof showing that the Ichigo that fought Byakuya had essentially the same raw power source as the Ichigo that fought Grimmjow (Visored Ichigo = Bankai Ichigo)

    I don't think there's any way to suggest that Ichigo is stronger than base Shunsui without drawing yourself into circular reasoning, e.g. basing your premise on your conclusion, which is faulty.

    ---------

    Anyways, Irooni's potential self-hazard is offset with Shunsui's knowledge of it. Specifically, he'll call out an irrelevant color; beige, for example, to tank Byakuya's every attack, and once he gets close, goes lethal, with black, or white, for example.

    You guys are overestimating the degree to which Byakuya can play Shunsui's games, assuming that Shunsui will even need to release his Shikai
    Never said Ichigo was stronger, I said that Ichigo in Bankai mode when he has full command of his powers as he seemed to in SS might be faster than Shunsui, since his Bankai drastically increases his speed, so I wouldn't expect Shunsui to blitz Byakuya or deflect all of SKY's petals.

    The act of deflecting all of SKY's petals was supposed to showcase the immense speed increase gained by Ichigo when he uses Bankai, and since this was an Ichigo who had as much control over his powers as he ever did before FGT, I wouldn't be surprised if he was indeed faster than Shunsui.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    @ CO: Why would it be circular reasoning to assume that Ichigo is indeed stronger in SS than Shunsui and his shikai?

  4. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member cloudo's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Ichigo is stronger? That's new, I can see final form Ichigo, but vizard or shinigami? No way. Shunsui two hit killed Starrk, Ichigo was dumbfounded by his speed. He couldn't even follow Starrk, yet Shunsui kept up with him. Ichigo also had trouble with R1 Ulquiorra. Shunsui beats Starrk in shikai. Don't see a comparison there in strength or speed.
    Last edited by cloudo; May 13, 2011 at 02:06 PM.

  5. #19
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudo View Post
    Ichigo is stronger? That's new, I can see final form Ichigo, but vizard or shinigami? No way. Shunsui two hit killed Starrk, Ichigo was dumbfounded by his speed. He couldn't even follow Starrk, yet Shunsui kept up with him. Ichigo also had trouble with R1 Ulquiorra. Shunsui beats Starrk in shikai. Don't see a comparison there in strength or speed.
    Ok... I'll repeat myself. Didn't say that Ichigo was stronger. Also, Ichigo in SS had harnessed his power to its greatest extent. From then on, until FGT, he was weaker, as Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu were conflicting with one another. Since his Bankai is the only Bankai I'm aware of which enhances his speed, it isn't too much of a stretch to say that Bankai Ichigo in SS is faster than Shunsui. Shunpo proficiency doesn't factor into it, the speed of Ichigo's movements themselves was enhanced so much that he was able to be extremely fast, despite not being a Shunpo master.

    Ichigo, when he was pretty much on his last legs, was knocked out by Starrk's speed, yes. Kinda like Shunsui was here, when Starrk was able to Sonido behind him and strike him before he could react. I maintain that Starrk was much faster than Shunsui, but his heart wasn't in the fight, and he didn't make nearly as much use of Sonido as he could have. When he did in this instance, he proved to be too fast for Shunsui.

    Ichigo vs R1 Ulq before Ichigonator kicked in had much less command of his powers than he did in SS, so as a result his speed was not as impressive. As for Shunsui "beating" Starrk in Shikai, I don't even want to start this argument again - suffice to say that Starrk's reluctance to fight throughout the battle and the large wound he received from Shunsui's backstab factored heavily into his loss to Shunsui.

  6. #20
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootToKill View Post
    I maintain that Starrk was much faster than Shunsui, but his heart wasn't in the fight, and he didn't make nearly as much use of Sonido as he could have. When he did in this instance, he proved to be too fast for Shunsui.
    IMHO Shunsui's speed was on par with Starrk's speed, otherwise Starrk would have murdered him long before Shunsui got to see Starrk's resurreccion. lol Starrk couldn't overpower Shunsui using his speed and swordsmanship in his sealed form, this is why he used his resurreccion and his hax abilities. Just like Starrk basically disappeared out of Ichigo's sight in HM, Shunsui carried Nanao a long distance away in one shunpo step, IMHO Shunsui doesn't deserve to be treated like an amateur in speed and swordsmanship department. I don't think there are many people that can hope to keep up with Starrk.

  7. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    IMHO Shunsui's speed was on par with Starrk's speed, otherwise Starrk would have murdered him long before Shunsui got to see Starrk's resurreccion. lol Starrk couldn't overpower Shunsui using his speed and swordsmanship in his sealed form, this is why he used his resurreccion and his hax abilities. Just like Starrk basically disappeared out of Ichigo's sight in HM, Shunsui carried Nanao a long distance away in one shunpo step, IMHO Shunsui doesn't deserve to be treated like an amateur in speed and swordsmanship department. I don't think there are many people that can hope to keep up with Starrk.
    Starrk had a major problem though - he was extremely demotivated and lazy. He essentially blitzed Shunsui during Iraoni in one of the few moments where he actually tried. Starrk was interested in seeing Shunsui's Bankai, that's why he released, not because his speed wasn't already superior to Shunsui's.

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  9. #22
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootToKill View Post
    Starrk had a major problem though - he was extremely demotivated and lazy. He essentially blitzed Shunsui during Iraoni in one of the few moments where he actually tried. Starrk was interested in seeing Shunsui's Bankai, that's why he released, not because his speed wasn't already superior to Shunsui's.
    Actually Starrk was more serious than Shunsui, Shunsui was trying to protect his outfit, how serious can that be? lol Joke aside, IMHO both Shunsui and Starrk had a serious fight after Shunsui started to use his small sword. (I forgot what it was called.) Isn't it a bit unfair to say that "If Starrk tries, he can blitz Shunsui, in all the moments he couldn't blitz Shunsui, he wasn't trying."? Starrk couldn't even force Shunsui to shikai without releasing, if his speed was that superior, Shunsui would have been forced to release his shikai or even bankai like Hitsugaya. IMHO their fight in sealed forms showed that Shunsui was as fast or almost as fast as Starrk, otherwise he wouldn't stand a chance.

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  11. #23
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    @ CO: Why would it be circular reasoning to assume that Ichigo is indeed stronger in SS than Shunsui and his shikai?
    Because the only person you can put Bankai SS arc Ichigo up against is Byakuya, and that is the only thing you can use if you're arguing from Shoottokill's point of view. (That SS arc Ichigo is faster than Shunsui...)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootToKill View Post
    -Snip-
    Thing is, it's very unlikely that SS arc Ichigo could have turned HM arc Ichigo into fodder. Shunsui has the feats to, seeing as both base Stark and R1 Ulquiorra were able to do so as well.

    Also, anyone who can match Bankai Ichigo in swordplay can deflect those petals as well. That includes, you guessed it, Byakuya himself. Base Byakuya would be capable of repeating SS arc Ichigo's feats against SBK, minus all the evasion.

    Since it's nearly impossible that base Byakuya > base Shunsui (by virtue of Shikai Shunsui vs. Shikai Byakuya and seniority. as well as base Shunsui just having plain better feats)...

    You get the picture?

  12. #24
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    Thing is, it's very unlikely that SS arc Ichigo could have turned HM arc Ichigo into fodder. Shunsui has the feats to, seeing as both base Stark and R1 Ulquiorra were able to do so as well.

    Also, anyone who can match Bankai Ichigo in swordplay can deflect those petals as well. That includes, you guessed it, Byakuya himself. Base Byakuya would be capable of repeating SS arc Ichigo's feats against SBK, minus all the evasion.

    Since it's nearly impossible that base Byakuya > base Shunsui (by virtue of Shikai Shunsui vs. Shikai Byakuya and seniority. as well as base Shunsui just having plain better feats)...

    You get the picture?
    With the exception of his moment of resolve against GJ in their last fight, and when he later turned into Ichigonator against Ulq, HM Ichigo was weak as hell imo. I wouldn't be surprised if SS Ichigo fodderized him. The difference is that great - I mean, even Shikai Ichigo was able to defeat patchless Kenpachi in SS, and Bankai dramatically increased his speed. I certainly think that Byakuya < Shunsui in base, but not by enough for the former to get blitzed.

    Ichigo's speed was extremely impressive in SS, and I don't believe that his petal deflecting feat could be matched by Byakuya or Shunsui. As for Byakuya matching him in swordsmanship, he had slowed down considerably by then, as mentioned here. I believe that his Bankai provided him with an incredible speed boost for a short while, which was displayed by him deflecting all of SKY's petals, but he quickly slowed down after succumbing to his earlier wounds etc, so Byakuya gained the upper hand again.

    So back on topic, I still don't believe that Shunsui is capable of deflecting all of Byakuya's blades, since his movement just isn't as fast as Bankai Ichigo's when the latter had full control over his power.

  13. #25
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-617-16...apter-163.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-617-17...apter-163.html

    I can slant evidence. But I won't this time, and just show you the facts.

    While Byakuya may not be able to react to Ichigo's travel speed, as indicated also here, I've shown you he's most definitely able to react to Ichigo's attack speed, and he's able to move his hand as fast as Ichigo's sword to intercept his strike (first two panels in this post), before Ichigo started getting crushed.

    So, yes, at that point there were no SBK petals, so that's essentially base Byakuya reacting to and intercepting ATTACK speed that deflected all his petals.

    By virtue of that feat, Byakuya has the Zanjutsu (+ his experience) to replicate Ichigo's feats against SBK. And in all honesty, unless base Shunsui feats are frankly lackluster compared to base Byakuya's, Shunsui can replicate the SBK swatting feat as well (he's got two swords; plus they're bigger :P)

  14. #26
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Actually Starrk was more serious than Shunsui, Shunsui was trying to protect his outfit, how serious can that be? lol Joke aside, IMHO both Shunsui and Starrk had a serious fight after Shunsui started to use his small sword. (I forgot what it was called.) Isn't it a bit unfair to say that "If Starrk tries, he can blitz Shunsui, in all the moments he couldn't blitz Shunsui, he wasn't trying."? Starrk couldn't even force Shunsui to shikai without releasing, if his speed was that superior, Shunsui would have been forced to release his shikai or even bankai like Hitsugaya. IMHO their fight in sealed forms showed that Shunsui was as fast or almost as fast as Starrk, otherwise he wouldn't stand a chance.
    stark did not try to seriously kill shunsui even once before he released, and only two times after he released (one with the cero in the back, the other when playing irooni). he even asked his opponents to run before attempting to finishing them off, and you think he was fighting shunsui seriously during their initial spar? the only reason stark released first is because he wanted to get shunsui to release bankai, which he almost did just that before ukitake intervened.

    whereas shunsui tried to cut his head off/cut him in half countless times using a variety of tricks as well as backstabbing him while he was fighting two other strong opponents.

  15. #27
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    stark did not try to seriously kill shunsui even once before he released, and only two times after he released (one with the cero in the back, the other when playing irooni). he even asked his opponents to run before attempting to finishing them off, and you think he was fighting shunsui seriously during their initial spar? the only reason stark released first is because he wanted to get shunsui to release bankai, which he almost did just that before ukitake intervened.

    whereas shunsui tried to cut his head off/cut him in half countless times using a variety of tricks as well as backstabbing him while he was fighting two other strong opponents.
    IMHO they started fighting seriously at this point. Shunsui managed to dodge everything Starrk threw at him, even a cero with no gesture but it wasn't enough to defeat Shunsui. IMHO as his face and words indicated, Starrk was fighting seriously but his sealed form wasn't strong enough to defeat Shunsui's sealed sword.

  16. #28
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    IMHO they started fighting seriously at this point. Shunsui managed to dodge everything Starrk threw at him, even a cero with no gesture but it wasn't enough to defeat Shunsui. IMHO as his face and words indicated, Starrk was fighting seriously but his sealed form wasn't strong enough to defeat Shunsui's sealed sword.
    I remember shunsui getting a small cut on his head whereas stark was unharmed. also from the pic you showed me instead of chasing shunsui stark was just walking along(and shunsui casually gliding along also) telling shunsui not to run, how can you say they were serious?

    I doubt stark was more serious than shunsui or vice versa. I think all we can conclude is at that level of seriousness(not very high) they were both on par. also when stark just revealed his number both men looked serious as well but they evidently weren't. the fight evidently got serious when stark decided to release to goad shunsui into releasing bankai, as shunsui said to ukitake 'he's finally getting serious' and shunsui then immediately went for the kill.

    also if we assume stark can actually fire 1000 ceros (doesn't seem like the guy who would lie or brag about his abilities) then he was actually going easy on shunsui since he didn't fire anywhere close to 1000.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 14, 2011 at 11:10 AM.

  17. #29
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    How can I prove Starrk was actually trying to cut Shunsui down? lol Starrk was annoyed with Shunsui's dodges, why would he be annoyed if he wasn't doing his best? Hey, Starrk, just relax and step up the gear, buddy. lol

    Both Shunsui and Starrk said that they weren't doing their best until Shunsui unsheathed his short sword. But IMHO they were pretty serious after then, Starrk was genuinely trying to cut Shunsui down.

    Of course, fighting in released form shows that an arrancar is more serious but it doesn't mean an arrancar can't actually try while in sealed form. Does a shinigami have to release his bankai to prove that he is doing his best? lol

    Starrk's defeat is controversial, so I don't want to comment on events after Starrk's release but considering that Hitsugaya released his bankai against sealed Harribel, IMHO holding your own against sealed Starrk with your sealed sword is still a very impressive feat.

  18. #30
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    Re: Byakuya vs Shunsui

    I have shown more than enough evidence to show that neither stark and shunsui were serious, I find it strange that instead of properly rebutting my point or simply let it go you insist that a shunsui who was gliding along in a casual attempt to escape from stark while the latter, who was walking towards him while complaining about it in his usual lazy demeanour, were both fighting seriously. Your attempt to show that stark was serious because he complained or the implication that his walking speed is at his best is truly comical.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 15, 2011 at 08:37 AM.

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