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Translations: Gintama 510 (2)
Byakuya with ease
Byakuya with difficulty
Shunsui with ease
Shunsui with difficulty
The act of deflecting all of SKY's petals was supposed to showcase the immense speed increase gained by Ichigo when he uses Bankai, and since this was an Ichigo who had as much control over his powers as he ever did before FGT, I wouldn't be surprised if he was indeed faster than Shunsui.
@ CO: Why would it be circular reasoning to assume that Ichigo is indeed stronger in SS than Shunsui and his shikai?
Ichigo is stronger? That's new, I can see final form Ichigo, but vizard or shinigami? No way. Shunsui two hit killed Starrk, Ichigo was dumbfounded by his speed. He couldn't even follow Starrk, yet Shunsui kept up with him. Ichigo also had trouble with R1 Ulquiorra. Shunsui beats Starrk in shikai. Don't see a comparison there in strength or speed.
Last edited by cloudo; May 13, 2011 at 02:06 PM.
Ichigo, when he was pretty much on his last legs, was knocked out by Starrk's speed, yes. Kinda like Shunsui was here, when Starrk was able to Sonido behind him and strike him before he could react. I maintain that Starrk was much faster than Shunsui, but his heart wasn't in the fight, and he didn't make nearly as much use of Sonido as he could have. When he did in this instance, he proved to be too fast for Shunsui.
Ichigo vs R1 Ulq before Ichigonator kicked in had much less command of his powers than he did in SS, so as a result his speed was not as impressive. As for Shunsui "beating" Starrk in Shikai, I don't even want to start this argument again - suffice to say that Starrk's reluctance to fight throughout the battle and the large wound he received from Shunsui's backstab factored heavily into his loss to Shunsui.
protect his outfit, how serious can that be? lol Joke aside, IMHO both Shunsui and Starrk had a serious fight after Shunsui started to use his small sword. (I forgot what it was called.) Isn't it a bit unfair to say that "If Starrk tries, he can blitz Shunsui, in all the moments he couldn't blitz Shunsui, he wasn't trying."? Starrk couldn't even force Shunsui to shikai without releasing, if his speed was that superior, Shunsui would have been forced to release his shikai or even bankai like Hitsugaya. IMHO their fight in sealed forms showed that Shunsui was as fast or almost as fast as Starrk, otherwise he wouldn't stand a chance.
Also, anyone who can match Bankai Ichigo in swordplay can deflect those petals as well. That includes, you guessed it, Byakuya himself. Base Byakuya would be capable of repeating SS arc Ichigo's feats against SBK, minus all the evasion.
Since it's nearly impossible that base Byakuya > base Shunsui (by virtue of Shikai Shunsui vs. Shikai Byakuya and seniority. as well as base Shunsui just having plain better feats)...
You get the picture?
Ichigo's speed was extremely impressive in SS, and I don't believe that his petal deflecting feat could be matched by Byakuya or Shunsui. As for Byakuya matching him in swordsmanship, he had slowed down considerably by then, as mentioned here. I believe that his Bankai provided him with an incredible speed boost for a short while, which was displayed by him deflecting all of SKY's petals, but he quickly slowed down after succumbing to his earlier wounds etc, so Byakuya gained the upper hand again.
So back on topic, I still don't believe that Shunsui is capable of deflecting all of Byakuya's blades, since his movement just isn't as fast as Bankai Ichigo's when the latter had full control over his power.
I can slant evidence. But I won't this time, and just show you the facts.
While Byakuya may not be able to react to Ichigo's travel speed, as indicated also here, I've shown you he's most definitely able to react to Ichigo's attack speed, and he's able to move his hand as fast as Ichigo's sword to intercept his strike (first two panels in this post), before Ichigo started getting crushed.
So, yes, at that point there were no SBK petals, so that's essentially base Byakuya reacting to and intercepting ATTACK speed that deflected all his petals.
By virtue of that feat, Byakuya has the Zanjutsu (+ his experience) to replicate Ichigo's feats against SBK. And in all honesty, unless base Shunsui feats are frankly lackluster compared to base Byakuya's, Shunsui can replicate the SBK swatting feat as well (he's got two swords; plus they're bigger :P)
whereas shunsui tried to cut his head off/cut him in half countless times using a variety of tricks as well as backstabbing him while he was fighting two other strong opponents.
this point. Shunsui managed to dodge everything Starrk threw at him, even a cero with no gesture but it wasn't enough to defeat Shunsui. IMHO as his face and words indicated, Starrk was fighting seriously but his sealed form wasn't strong enough to defeat Shunsui's sealed sword.
I doubt stark was more serious than shunsui or vice versa. I think all we can conclude is at that level of seriousness(not very high) they were both on par. also when stark just revealed his number both men looked serious as well but they evidently weren't. the fight evidently got serious when stark decided to release to goad shunsui into releasing bankai, as shunsui said to ukitake 'he's finally getting serious' and shunsui then immediately went for the kill.
also if we assume stark can actually fire 1000 ceros (doesn't seem like the guy who would lie or brag about his abilities) then he was actually going easy on shunsui since he didn't fire anywhere close to 1000.
Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 14, 2011 at 11:10 AM.
How can I prove Starrk was actually trying to cut Shunsui down? lol Starrk was annoyed with Shunsui's dodges, why would he be annoyed if he wasn't doing his best? Hey, Starrk, just relax and step up the gear, buddy. lol
Both Shunsui and Starrk said that they weren't doing their best until Shunsui unsheathed his short sword. But IMHO they were pretty serious after then, Starrk was genuinely trying to cut Shunsui down.
Of course, fighting in released form shows that an arrancar is more serious but it doesn't mean an arrancar can't actually try while in sealed form. Does a shinigami have to release his bankai to prove that he is doing his best? lol
Starrk's defeat is controversial, so I don't want to comment on events after Starrk's release but considering that Hitsugaya released his bankai against sealed Harribel, IMHO holding your own against sealed Starrk with your sealed sword is still a very impressive feat.
I have shown more than enough evidence to show that neither stark and shunsui were serious, I find it strange that instead of properly rebutting my point or simply let it go you insist that a shunsui who was gliding along in a casual attempt to escape from stark while the latter, who was walking towards him while complaining about it in his usual lazy demeanour, were both fighting seriously. Your attempt to show that stark was serious because he complained or the implication that his walking speed is at his best is truly comical.
Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 15, 2011 at 08:37 AM.