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Thread: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

  1. #31
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Broken_Wing's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    Yama was threatening because of a very different reason than Urahara, his extreme offensive power. Aizen wouldn't be careless without good reason, if Yama's power was enough to warrant a serious effort from Chrysalis Aizen that's what he would get.
    And how are we suposed to know that Chrysalis Aizen would consider Yamamotos power more of a threat than Uraharas intellect?

    Urahara was able to string together kido spells against a virtually non-resistant Chrysalis Aizen.

    What feats do we even have of a "serious" Chrysalis Aizen?

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  3. #32
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken_Wing View Post
    How can it be contrived for Aizen not to have sliced off Yamamoto's head?

    How many shinigami/warriors has Aizen slashed? How many times did he slice off their heads?
    What I'm saying is that Aizen was perfectly capable of doing so. He intentionally spared the lives of the other Captains, whereas he did plan on killing Yamamoto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken_Wing View Post
    Yamamoto created a scenario in which Aizen could feel that he could critically injure Yamamoto up close, and personal. He wanted to see Yamamotos frustration and despair up close at how futile a position he was in....what he got from him instead - was a sly grin and a bleeding arm from the old man's fingertips.
    As I said, I believe that the only reason Aizen would have put himself at such risk by allowing himself to get caught was because he, as you say, wanted to make Yama fully aware of the futility of his position before he killed him. But he did just this. Aizen was never in any danger, because he always knew that he had WW as a backup - Yama underestimated his cunning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken_Wing View Post
    How does Aizen create something that seals th great powers of RJ which he has never analysed before? Im sure the only times he has even seen its flames is back in the SS arc. I think thats contrived.
    I guess the same way that Urahara can analyze ceros and bala blasts after just seeing them once. Aizen is the second greatest analytical genius in Bleach, so in SS he could have been using machines to monitor Yama's spiritual pressure when he used RJ. Aizen had Ichigo under surveillance right from the start, knew about Uraharas Hogyoku etc. With KS and his intellect combined, there were few limitations on what Aizen could have observed / analyzed in SS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken_Wing View Post
    We cant say that Chrysalis Aizen will be more cautious against Yamamoto compared to Urahara...since he already considered Urahara to be his intellectual equal...or better? If he was so carefree against Urahara its not like he will be so crazy cautious against Yamamoto.
    While Urahara's intellect meant that he had a number of creative attacks to throw at Aizen, I believe that Aizen knew that someone of Urahara's power level was not capable of doing him any serious damage by this stage. He knew Yama to be incredibly powerful, admitting that in a straight fight (in base form) Yama would defeat him. If Chrysalis Aizen considers someone a threat, he won't be as careless as he was against Urahara and co.

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken_Wing View Post
    He already underestimated Yamamoto in his base shingami form...with this new power what would be different?
    With the exception of the Hado spell, he didn't really underestimate Yama. He acknowledged his power, and despite letting himself get caught, was still very much in control of the situation due to WW. Yama is the one who underestimated him by believing he truly had him caught.

  4. #33
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    The part about the caution is a bit murky. Yamamoto is obviously the most powerful shinigami but in turn does chrysalis aizen need to be cautios around shinigami? Even if he does not evolve he can still regenerate, he has insane speed and power inherently superior to that of shinigami. Even when aizen was actually defeated it was not because shinigami rose to his level but rather because he was lowered to the level of that of a shinigami (which was hinted to have been a desire of aizen to boot). Yamamoto does not have crazy sealing kido made specifically for aizen, all he can do is burn up stuff and cause generic damage. As we saw in a number of occasions neither of those really do work...

    Ultimately aizen was not cautious against urahara because he in fact did not need to (otherwise aizen could have been dealt with without him losing his power). Aizen was careless against ichigo because aizen could not actually fathom the thought of ichigo being superior. Does aizen need to be cautious against yamamoto? IMO not at all. Yamamoto is completely bound to the ordinary limitations of shinigami, even if he has a lot of power it is still ordinary shinigami power.

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  6. #34
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Yamamoto is obviously the most powerful shinigami but in turn does chrysalis aizen need to be cautios around shinigami? Even if he does not evolve he can still regenerate, he has insane speed and power inherently superior to that of shinigami.
    I think Aizen isn't allowed to use hogyoku's regeneration powers in this topic. IMHO Aizen didn't have any regeneration powers of his own, he didn't need to because he was the master of hogyoku and hogyoku was saving him even before his transformations.

    FGT Ichigo had more reiatsu than Aizen but his attacks still failed to do any permanent damage, Aizen was still able to regenerate after Ichigo used his strongest technique, on the other hand Aizen's attacks hurt Ichigo. It was hogyoku that made Aizen invincible, not Aizen's own powers which were weaker than Ichigo's.

    Gin's attack forced another transformation, can Yamamoto do enough damage to force a transformation? IMHO he can. Nobody can kill Aizen as long as he is the master of hogyoku but once hogyoku is out of the equation, IMHO what we have is someone who can be killed by ordinary shinigami like Gin.

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  8. #35
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    I have my doubts about the orb being what healed aizen after the transformation began.

    For that matter, I don't think the orb actually "gave" power to aizen. The orb triggered the transformations but based on what we know of the orb's functioning it can't give power, it can only bring forth something which is already within the possibilities of the user. In that when aizen transformed it was "his" power and not the orb's.

    Then there is also the issue of the chrysalis stage itself not being a definitive form. The chrysalis stage was just a cocoon kind of thing, aizen was in the middle of an evolution then. In that sense it would make sense that aizen was actually growing stronger as the fight went on (of course such growth in strength would have been beyond the perception of shinigami).

    And even if aizen does indeed need to be wary of shinigami there is still no way yamamoto can win. There already is the issue of aizen's reiatsu being beyond that of shinigami at that point and he is still a extremely accomplished fighter. It's not like aizen will think of himself as he was during the fight against urahara and co if the situation is not the same. If he for some reason is vulnerable to shinigami attacks then he would logically know which would mean he would fight as his usual self. So we still have an evolving dude with reiatsu beyond that of shinigami and his old illusion and other abilities. I don't see how yamamoto would win even in this scenario.

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  10. #36
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member cloudo's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Aizen doesn't have regeneration powers without the hog'. How can you say otherwise? Where in the manga does it show him healing himself w/o the hog'? You can't find it. If Gin helped Aizen EVOLVE BY EXPERIENCING DEATH, how wouldn't Yama's powers be any less effective? Like what was brought up in here earlier, shikai attacks were effective so how wouldn't Yama's? Hoguyoku grants the desires of those around it. There was never any indications that it brought up latent abilities. If Aizen had reiatsu above all Shinigami, why did he continue to use shinigami type attacks? He was on a different plane but not untouchable. If that were the case butterfly Aizen wouldn't have been affected by Gin, or actually he wouldn't be butterfly Aizen without the help of Gin.

    My point, a shinigami power was able to 'kill' him. And wasn't it said TO GIN- that even though the hog' wasn't in him he still had IT'S POWERS?

  11. #37
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
    Huh? He's the only Shinigami to figure out a way to beat KS. (Before anyone mentions it, no, Gin didn't either, he was told). He may not be the most intelligent, but he's far from stupid.
    Sorry but are you being serious?
    If getting stabbed was yama's strategy of overcoming KS then his brain must consist of one cell that is about to rot away. I would like Yama to use his 'strategy' when Aizen actually uses KS and go for his head, shame Kubo doesn't kill good guys.

    Just because Aizen is not allowed to evolve further you people are taking away his regen too? Lol Yama fanboys will do anything to get him to win.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 17, 2011 at 07:25 PM.

  12. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    Sorry but are you being serious?
    If getting stabbed was yama's strategy of overcoming KS then his brain must consist of one cell that is about to rot away. I would like Yama to use his 'strategy' when Aizen actually uses KS and go for his head, shame Kubo doesn't kill good guys.
    Are YOU being serious?

    I can control your five senses, you know, those things you have that dictate how you distinguish what reality itself is. Now beat me in a fight, I'd love to hear your plan.

  13. #39
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
    Are YOU being serious?

    I can control your five senses, you know, those things you have that dictate how you distinguish what reality itself is. Now beat me in a fight, I'd love to hear your plan.
    Trying to fight without relying on your senses, the most simple and obvious solution is better than the one Yama came up with(wait for Aizen to cut off his head). Kenpachi managed to do it albeit in a somewhat different and less difficult situation. Also if reiatsu sensing is unaffected then Yama could have worked on that instead of just getting stabbed.

    You really should say what you said to all those people who voted for Yama in the tournament.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 17, 2011 at 07:49 PM.

  14. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    Trying to fight without using your senses, the most simple and obvious solution is better than the one Yama came up with. Kenpachi managed to do it albeit in a somewhat different situation. Also if reiatsu sensing is unaffected then Yama could have worked on that instead of just getting stabbed.

    You really should say what you said to all those people who voted for Yama in the tournament.
    Kenpachi used touch, which is not just a different situation, but a vastly different one. Aizen leaves you with nothing, it's far more difficult than being left with an amplified sense of touch. As impossible as that was that Kenpachi did, he would be a dead man against KS.

    Fact is, the ONLY other way also involved touching KS, but before it activated. Yama took a gamble and seemed to have replicated a similar scenario. You basically said that Yama was the stupidest guy in the manga because he COULD have been stabbed in the head. Fact is though, there is no other way for any of the captains to beat KS, so I don't see how that makes him stupid in any way.

    As for the last bit, yeah, I DID say that in the Aizen VS Yamamoto thread. Constantly.

  15. #41
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Then why was Yama still so confident after losing RJ and arrogantly claimed that he is the strongest shinigami while implying heavily that his fists alone are enough to take down Aizen? Truth is, the guy's no more 'intelligent' than Barragan.

    I never said Yama figuring out reiatsu sensing is unaffected by KS is dumb, I said it's because he just let Aizen hit him. He did not even attempt to protect his vital spots somehow (for example Aizen used a kido shield to protect the back of his head)before fighting Aizen and lure him stab a not too important spot instead. He also could have worked on reiatsu sensing like I said, he shouldn't be too bad at it in the first place seeing he probably has all his shinigami skills maxed. He also could have urged other captains to work on reiatsu sensing so they can all fight Aizen together in a collaborative effort instead of just going 'yeah I'm gonna take him down by either kamikazing along with half of SS' or try to solo him with fists.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 17, 2011 at 08:12 PM.

  16. #42
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    Then why was Yama still so confident after losing RJ and arrogantly claimed that he is the strongest shinigami while implying heavily that his fists alone are enough to take down Aizen? Truth is, the guy's no more 'intelligent' than Barragan.
    I'm not here to debate his actions afterwards, I'm focusing purely on his plan to beat KS. He may have been arrogant at that time, but I always thought that was due to him believing he'd get his sword back, as well as the power he had prepared, but that's just me.

    Quote Quote:
    I never said Yama figuring out reiatsu sensing is unaffected by KS is dumb, I said it's because he just let Aizen hit him. He did not even attempt to protect his vital spots somehow (for example Aizen used a kido shield to protect the back of his head)before fighting Aizen and lure him stab a not too important spot instead. He also could have worked on reiatsu sensing like I said, he shouldn't be too bad at it in the first place seeing he probably has all his shinigami skills maxed.
    That's not really fair. By that logic, anyone should have those shields with them at all times, but we don't even know what they are.

    It was a gamble, there was a single way to beat Aizen, and that involved getting stabbed in some way. Using the shields isn't a fair comparison, and I don't know how else you could protect yourself when the guy controls every one of your senses.

    In terms of improving Reiatsu sensing, who's to say that's even possible? Don't you think if Yama COULD sense his sword from a distance he would? It doesn't make sense for Yama to take such a risk if there was any alternative. Since we haven't seen that as even being possible, it's again an unfair standard to set.

  17. #43
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Which is why I said he should have prepared some sort of defensive measure for his vital spots BEFORE fighting Aizen.

    Reiatsu sensing should be possible. Tousen has shown to rely on it heavily. It's 2am where I am so I'm gonna have to reply to anything new tomorrow takahashi.

  18. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    Which is why I said he should have prepared some sort of defensive measure for his vital spots BEFORE fighting Aizen.
    Name one automatic defense aside from the shields Aizen, and Aizen alone displayed. You can't blame Yama for not using some protective ___ that we've never seen before.

    Quote Quote:
    Reiatsu sensing should be possible. Tousen has shown to rely on it heavily. It's 2am where I am so I'm gonna have to reply to anything new tomorrow takahashi.
    Tousen has also failed at it. Komamura was able to completely hide his presence around him. Clearly even a decent level of control can throw off someone adept at it. And to feel JUST the Reiatsu while your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin are telling you otherwise in a fight no less, isn't a fair expectation.

    Anyway, night Lulu

  19. #45
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    Re: Yamamoto vs Chrysalis Aizen

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I have my doubts about the orb being what healed aizen after the transformation began.
    IMHO it was all hogyoku's doing. Ichigo injured Aizen but then Aizen evolved once again and he said hogyoku wouldn't let him get defeated. Aizen himself said that hogyoku would protect its master.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    For that matter, I don't think the orb actually "gave" power to aizen. The orb triggered the transformations but based on what we know of the orb's functioning it can't give power, it can only bring forth something which is already within the possibilities of the user. In that when aizen transformed it was "his" power and not the orb's.
    The explanation in the manga is blurry. The orb increased Aizen's reiatsu tremendously, I don't think Aizen was able to reach this power level on his own. If a magic stone makes you strong enough that you can lift an aircraft carrier and says this power was already within you, are we supposed to believe that every human has the ability to lift such weight even though we know that no human has ever done that?

    And Aizen wasn't fighting by himself, he and hogyoku were fighting side by side, hogyoku is a power source by itself, this is why Ichigo failed to kill Aizen even though he had more reiatsu than Aizen. IMHO even Ichigo wasn't strong enough to defeat the combined power of Aizen and hogyoku, hogyoku is invincible, Ichigo won by making hogyoku switch sides (or by making Aizen switch sides lol), not by overpowering hogyoku.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If he for some reason is vulnerable to shinigami attacks then he would logically know which would mean he would fight as his usual self. So we still have an evolving dude with reiatsu beyond that of shinigami and his old illusion and other abilities. I don't see how yamamoto would win even in this scenario.
    Aizen said "Fear is necessary for evolution, fear that one could be annihilated." Doesn't it mean that a shinigami (in this case, Gin) has the power to annihilate Aizen? The orb made Aizen evolve, Aizen would have died without the orb.

    Aizen isn't allowed to use his illusions in this fight, so IMHO Yamamoto has a pretty good chance to win based on the conditions set forth in this topic. All Yamamoto has to do is to use the power of RJ on someone who can't hide himself using his illusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    Just because Aizen is not allowed to evolve further you people are taking away his regen too?
    ShootToKill said that hogyoku regeneration wasn't allowed. Aizen+hogyoku combo is basically invincible, what's the point of the topic then? lol

    P.S. I wonder if hogyoku may run out of energy, like Philosopher's Stones in FMA. If there are two hogyokus, how long will the fight go on? lol

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