The Espada win both scenarios
The Espada win scenario #1, but not scenario #2
Soul Society win both scenarios
Yeah I know, it's already happened. The Espada got owned right? Well, let's see how the whole of SS do against the Espada in an all out battle, as opposed to using convenient plot events and matchups which were in favor of SS to allow the Captains to come out on top
I'm going to make the teams fair as far as numbers are concerned - 9 on each side.
Team 1: The Espada
Szayel Aporro Granz
Team 2: Soul Society
AND Ichigo Kurosaki
I've replaced Unohana with Ichigo since we have no feats from her. Ichigo is ofc restricted from FGT - but he has access to Bankai and Hollow Mask. I'm not including Aaroniero because he'd just get instakilled by pretty much anyone from SS.
Rules: Personality is taken into account. No prior knowledge of any abilities for either side. All of the Espada start off unreleased apart from Starrk. Fight is in FKT.
I have 2 possible scenarios for this battle:
Scenario #1 The fight I have just described.
Scenario #2 Yamamoto is added to Soul Society's side, and WW is included as an honorary member of the Espada.
My take on this is that in scenario 1, the Espada win comfortably. Barragan and Starrk could pretty much defeat them all on their own imo.
Scenario 2 is where it gets more tricky for the Espada. Yama obviously is a huge asset to SS, but with WW on the opposing team, he can extinguish Yama's flames when they're used if he's released by this time. Yama has no prior knowledge of WW's ability, so there's nothing to stop him from using his fire attacks, and there's nothing to cause him to go for WW first. Therefore, it largely depends on the decisions Yama makes. However, knowing him, he'll release pretty quickly, and this will be his undoing. However, as long as he doesn't use EJ, WW probably won't absorb enough flames to create an explosion large enough to take Yama out. Therefore, if WW releases, he'll stop Yama's fire attacks, but probably won't absorb enough fire to take Yama out. Anyway, it's a tough call, but I believe that Barragan and Starrk together should be pretty dangerous to Yama without his fire attacks. WW, after he's absorbed RJ's flames, can go after some other Captains as long as he's not being chased down by Yama. I haven't even mentioned Zommari so far - if he releases, he can cause havoc with Amor. Szayel, if given enough time, could release and make clones of some of his fellow Espada. Ulquiorra and Hallibel would give the mid level Captains a lot of trouble, and Yammy would take out the lower levels pretty quickly imo.
Anyway, I'm done talking, who's gonna win?
Last edited by ShootToKill; May 15, 2011 at 09:52 PM.
Szayel and Zommari's lethality skyrocket in big team fights. When you've got guys that can hold their own against captains, and some that outright crush them, then even the lower guys can become significant due to the distraction factor. Zommari's ability alone could take down plenty of captains with no possible way for them to stop it. Not being seen is essentially impossible, now try it when you're fighting Stark or Barragan.
Espada baby shake round 1.
As for number 2, it's tricky. Yama is such an overwhelming force that his addition is the definition of a game changer. Still, I think Barragan can take Yama, but I don't think he can take EVERYONE, collaborative attacks could fuck him up. If Yama stomps everyone quickly, Barragan's done too, but if the captains get killed while Yama is tangled with WW or something, the Espada win. I'm not sure if Zommari's could control Yama, despite me not believing in the Reiatsu canceling, I think I'll get my head bitten off for even suggesting the possibility
All in all, I'd say the Espada win overall, because of a definitive round 1 win, and potential round 2 win.
I certainly think Scenario 1 is a stomp - I wouldn't expect too many people to disagree with this, even the people who keep claiming that the Espada suck. I don't know the limitations of Szayel's cloning technique, but imagine 10 Barragans up against SS
If Zommari is protected against the stronger members of SS while he releases, he can possess limbs belonging to the majority of members with ease, assuming he goes all out with his ability from the start instead of taking his sweet time as with Byakuya.
Zommari controlling Yama is an interesting idea - my personal belief is that he can only control those with lower Reiatsu than himself in their entirity, but he can possess the limb of pretty much anyone. If he possessed Yama's sword arm, it would give the Espada another large advantage imo. It basically depends how strategic they are about using Zommari and Szayel's abilities.
Best strategy for the Espada in Scenario 2 imo is for Starrk and Barragan to take on Yama together, WW to release and extinugish Yama's flames, then take on Shunsui and Ukitake, and for Grimm, Nnoitra, Hallibel, Ulquiorra and Yammy to protect Zommari and Szayel from the rest of the Captains while they release. Once they're released, Szayel can make his clones (he won't be absorbing any of the Captains with the exception of Mayuri, and we know that didn't turn out well), and Zommari can use Amor. Then, Zommari can possess up to 50 limbs (the Captains and Ichigo combined only have 40), so as long as Zommari remains protected, and Starrk and Barragan manage to hold Yama off, the fight is won for the Espada.
imo, the captains bankai that haven't been shown could very well allow them to win but because we haven't seen it, they are restricted due to the fact we dont know what it is
in both scenarios the espadas will win, with yamas flames sealed id say that stark and barragan could easily take him out without too much trouble, the only reason why the gotei 13 survived last time was because of the vizards,
but id say that if ichigo is at his full hollow form or even his dangai form or if yamas flames can't be sealed the ss could have a big chance of winning
Scenario 1: stark and ulquiorra can take down about half of the captains(destroy shunsui and juushiro first with Lanza/cero metralleta/cero oscuras spam) without much difficulty while the remaining espada deal with the rest.
Scenario 2... I think WW and barragan together can take down yama or at least fight him long enough until ulq and stark blitzkrieg shunsui and juushiro out of the picture. Stark then goes to help barragan and WW with yama while ulq should lead the offense on the remaining captains (while ulq is taking down shunsui/juushiro hallibel will lead the offense), while the mid ranked espadas and yammy should aim to protect Zommari while he amor as many body parts of captains as possible while stalling them. R2 ulq should take down sajin and mayuri's bankais pretty quickly with 2 lanzas, then szayel should stall with mayuri (he may even win as mayuri has no prep this time and ulq just blew his bankai apart).ulq should then aim to destroy hitsu ASAP while hallibel try to take down soifon though she might need to stall until ulq can help her. Ulq may be able to take down most captains with hallibel. Yammy and the rest should be able to stall the remaining captains(in particular byakuya, kenpachi and ichigo) until ulq and hallibel take out hits and soifon, at this point the espada should attack as fierce as possible. The crucial bit lies in whether Yama gets taken down or not, if yama wins then the espada are in deep shit as the ulq front is a bit outnumbered. If Yama gets taken out, the surviving espada will go to help ulq and it will be all over quickly for SS. If Yama wins at the point that he is the only captain left then SS inevitably loses. Gonna give the win to he espadas on this one.
Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 16, 2011 at 03:25 PM.
Honestly, I can see SS winning one but not two. Since there's no option, I'm voting for SS winning both. Zommari and SZayel may be useful, but SS has enough fast fighters to counter Zommari before he releases - like Soifon - and SZayel would, quite possibly out of curiousity, end up fighting Maryui. Maryui would deem him the most interesting and go up against him, anyway. Kenpachi, short of going up against Barragan or Starkk, could quite probably defeat 2 of the espadas. Definately if he started using Kendo, With it he beat Nnortria easily after being wounded quite a bit, and took out Yammy easily. Shunsui could beat Starkk, or Shadow Zommari. Ichigo can take out Ulquiorra.
So so far Kenpachi, Ichigo, Soifon, Maryui and Shunsui are fighting Zommari, Starkk, Ulquiorra, Nnotria, Yammy and SZayel.
So it's Barragan, Harribel and Grimmjow vs Hitsugaya, Ukitake, Byakuya and Komamura. Komamura could take Grimmjow, Hitsugaya can take Harribel...
Barragan would be the biggest problem but I think if more than one person attacked him at the same time his Respira couldn't fight multiple people. So Ukitake, Byakuya, and everyone else after they've won could take Barragan.
As for with Yamamoto, the damage to their Morale after seeing Yamamoto 'draw' with WW would give the edge to Espada...
Personally I believe Stark to be a stronger force than Barragan, and that there's a very definite limit to his aging which I elaborated upon in two older posts, but that's just me
I could see SS winning #1 if the match ups went like this:
Soi Fon vs Ulq : Soi Fon just got bad luck when she matched up against Barragan, but she's fast and strong enough to be a threat to most of the other Espada. I think Soi Fon is fast enough to land her 2HKO on batman, and once he's gone Soi Fon is free to Shunpo around the battlefield and show people why she thinks she's an assassin. She could easily take out Yammy and Szayel almost instantly, even if they weren't distracted, and she could get a released Zommari as well if Byakuya hasn't already finished him off.
Koma vs Yammy: Koma has a strong enough Bankai to destroy Yammy's first stage of his release, and is actually fairly polite unlike Byakuya and Ken so he may avoid enraging Yammy into hit more powerful forms. But Koma is likely still strong enough to at least hold Yammy's rage forms at bay until another captain can lend a hand.
Byakuya vs Zommari : I don't think I have to expalin this one. Zommari is also is big trouble if Hitsu uses HH or Mayuri goes bankai near him when he's released. His pumpkin form didn't look very agile which is a problem when multiple opponents have large AoE attacks.
Mayuri vs Szayel: See above. Szayel could also be one shotted by just about any of the other captains, he admitted himself that he's not very good in combat, and like Aaroniero said, he can't do shit outside of his lab.
Ukitake vs Starkk: Ukitake's shikai makes a great counter to Starrk's abilities, once Starkk starts spamming ceros, Ukitake can turn them back against him or even use them to attack the other Espada. If he can't beat Starrk, he can at least distract him long enough for Soi Fon or Shunsui to land a sneak attack on.
Kenpachi vs Grimmjow: If Kenpachi fights Grimmjow instead of Nnoitra, he won't be as seriously injured after his fight as he was against Nnoitra so he will still be able to assist his fellow captains.
Ichigo vs Nnoitra: It doesn't seem like too big of a stretch to me for Ichigo to beat Nnoitra, but if anyone disagrees I'd love to hear why.
Shunsui vs Hallibel: Assuming that Shunsui can keep it in his pants, he is powerful enough to beat Hallibel with out too much trouble.
and Hitsu just using HH on Barragan until everyone else finishes their respective match ups and can lend a hand. Or HH might actually be able to hold Barragan permanently idk.
But if either Histu or Ukitake goes down before the other captains have finished their fights, the whole thing goes to shit and Starrk and Barragan rape everyone.
And once WW is gone, Yama will go around punching the remaining Espada into fragments one by one while the rest of the captains shout encouragement to him from the sidelines.
Last edited by Tonix; May 24, 2011 at 01:54 AM.
If Shunsui had never had Ukitake, Love, or Rose interfere, he would have had to have faced a shit ton of Ceros, as well as the wolves, he also wouldn't have had an easy opening to shank Stark in the back. And by Shunsui's own words, he WOULD have gone into Bankai to combat him.
Soi Fon was done. Barragan clearly won, and if not for Hachi and his incredibly lucky guess, Barragan would have gone on to kill many more.
Hitsugaya also only won because he had time to use HH properly. We saw clearly that even Sealed Halibel was superior to Bankai Hitsugaya in CQC, so if he was unable to stalemate every long range attack, he'd get crushed up close. Not to mention that WW is here, which makes HH basically irrelevant as long as he's around.
That's not even counting the fact that SKY is a perfect counter to Amor, Mayuri and prep time is a perfect counter for Szayel, and Kenpachi is simply a better berserker than Noitora. Switch those 3 up, and the Espada can actually win fights. With such a massive battle in this topic, anyone could fight anyone, and it's not so simple as "SS already won, therefore any combination is in their favor".
And Nnoitra could just have easily gone down against Komamura, Soi Fon, Ichigo, or even Mayuri with his Bankai poison, switching Zommari Szayel and Nnoitra's fights will only change who they die against.
Rukia vs Aaroniero - Aaroniero was much stronger, Rukia's sword magically rematerialized and stabbed him through the head - plot device.
Mayuri vs Szayel - Mayuri "had his bones replaced" mere hours before the fight, so he would be unaffected by Szayel's most deadly move - plot device.
Byakuya vs Zommari - Zommari was faster than Byakuya, and could have defeated him in base, but due to his arrogance, he transformed, and although his ability would be enough to defeat pretty much anyone, Byakuya's "million petals" of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi and his superior Kido skills provided him with a victory - personality and convenient pairing influenced this victory.
Ichigo vs Grimmjow - Grimmjow owned him every step of the way, yet Ichigo suddenly has a "resolve moment", and destroys Grimmjow's most powerful attack and defeats him - plot device.
Kenpachi vs Nnoitra - Nnoitra was destroying him in his release form, Kenpachi decides to grip his sword with both hands and wins with ease? - plot device.
Ichigo vs Ulquiorra - Ichigo is getting owned by R1 Ulquiorra, Orihime screams Kurosaki-Kun a few dozen times and a ridiculously powerful form of Ichigo whose capabilities far exceed R2 Ulquiorra's emerges - plot device.
Hitsugaya vs Hallibel - Ice Zanpaktou vs water based abilities, Hitsugaya would have been sliced in two were it not for his "ice clone" - convenient pairing and plot device.
Soifon et al vs Barragan - Wasn't even defeated by a Captain, but by a Vizard who has unique teleportation abilities - convenient pairing.
Shunsui vs Starrk - Starrk had no desire to fight, and had essentially given up a short time into the fight. Shunsui also backstabbed him, and wasn't forced to go up against his wolves, so Starrk wasn't defeated in a fair fight, not by a long shot.
Kenpachi and Byakuya vs Yammy - I'll give this one to them, I wasn't especially impressed by Yammy to say the least.
However, in the vast majority of fights the Espada have thoroughly outmatched their opponents, and as I said before, only lost either due to being put against pretty much the worst opponent for them, or in the majority of cases due to being saved by a fortunate twist of fate (attributed to plot).
I'm sure you'll disagree with basically everything I've said, but as for this fight, tell me how you think anyone in SS bar Yama is going to put a scratch on Barragan. He and Starrk could take a sizeable number of Captains by themselves imo.
Last edited by ShootToKill; May 24, 2011 at 02:52 AM.
Not really, there's quite a list of opponents. WW can scream at any time, Yamamoto would actually have to target him to disable the ability, which could also turn against him with RJ and all. Some of us also think Barragan could take Yama.Quote:
He's physically weak, but this is a massive team battle. He can easily catch people off guard with his fluids, he can enter the systems of any "living" Bankai and turn them against them. Like I said in my first post, him and Zommari get MUCH scarier when they can sit back and do their thing.Quote:
If you look at this as PURELY a ton of 1 on 1 fights, you're doing it wrong :P
I meant a switch of any fights, but was specifically talking about the 3 of them. Zommari for example would trash Kenpachi.Quote: