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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • The Espada win both scenarios

    9 36.00%
  • The Espada win scenario #1, but not scenario #2

    2 8.00%
  • Soul Society win both scenarios

    14 56.00%
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Thread: Soul Society vs The Espada

  1. #46
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Love and Rose didn't get hit with that many. Less than 10 for sure, and there was two of them, and they had their masks on the first time. Now if you think Yamamoto is a 5x better tank than they are then you're also guilty of over-hyping.
    Well, Starrk starts off with this many wolves, and although Love and Rose destroyed some with their Shikai attacks, it appears that they re-form. The panel which shows the wolves actually latching onto Love and Rose is zoomed in very close to them, so we can't really tell how many wolves are actually surrounding them. Judging from the number Starrk begins with, the fact that they re-form, and the size of the explosion, I'm inclined to believe that they were attacked by a lot more than 10. They were also hit twice, the first time the wolves broke their masks but didn't seem to injure them greatly, and the second time the explosions caused by the wolves went on throughout Starrk's explanation of what the wolves were, which again indicates that a lot of wolves were used.

    I seriously don't believe that I overhype Yama, but I believe that he exceeds all other characters in Bleach in two areas: Raw Zanpaktou power and durability. The former due to Aizen's comment, and the latter due to his tanking feat. The flames of RJ contained within WW had enough explosive power to destroy the Real Karakura Town, and he was able to not only survive this blast, but have enough strength left to perform a Hado level 96. I'll argue against anyone who says Yama will defeat Aizen even if he uses KS, or says that his Reiatsu alone will negate Respira, but I honestly don't think that the wolves will be a problem for him, at least not for long enough to prevent him from killing Starrk. Also, if Love and Rose could destroy wolves with their Shikai attacks, I wouldn't be surprised if Yama's were also capable of doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Dude, WW didn't even try to move. He stood there shocked at the fact that he couldn't injure the old man, and Yamamoto just double-boned his awe-struck ass. Starrk is a million times more agile, and more importantly he's not retarded. Quite the opposite in fact.
    You're right about WW being awestruck, I believe that if he hadn't been in this state he would have been able to dodge Yama. But I don't believe that WW is slower than Starrk for a start, and Starrk isn't above being hesitant in battle either, as was evident at the end of his battle with Shunsui - instead of reacting or dodging, he just stood there when Shunsui called black. WW being retarded doesn't seem to have affected his fighting ability, whereas Starrk's reflective nature put him somewhat at a disadvantage - he essentially wanted to give up on realizing the strength of Shunsui and the Vizards, how is he going to feel going up against Yama?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Lack of HSR doesn't mean poor durability (likewise having it doesn't mean good durability [my opinion WW's sucked]). I doubt a numeros would have the same durability as the primera espada, especially considering Starrk's reiatsu. He's the only one who would kill weaker hollows just by being around them, and this was even before becoming an an arrancar. Starrk got hit by Tengumaru and was relatively uninjured. I honestly don't see any of the top espada, or even Grimmjow, being taken out so easily by an unarmed punch. Technically WW couldn't even handle single-bone.
    WW wasn't really a Numeros in the typical sense... he was in a category of his own, and certainly had the power of a high level Espada. Also, the fact that he took essentially no damage from masked Mashiro's attacks unreleased and although Mashiro is ofc not Captain level, the mask would have added a lot of power to her attacks. I don't really have much else to go on to prove WW's durability, but my guess is that it would be no less than Starrk's.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    True but honestly I think it's harder to stop the wolves than it is respira. Yamamoto's flames could possibly slow down/counter the respira. Each one of the wolves regenerate from damage and will actually relentlessly chase you down at great speeds from many different directions. They all seem sentient and will even ambush you by hiding in rubble. Yamamoto may be faster than Love and Rose, but even while masked they weren't even close to being able to outrun them. That being said, I do think Barragan could possibly take the old man too, it's just that Starrk to me seems overall deadlier when he's serious. The only character I can see reliably soloing Starrk is Aizen. Shinji would be another contender but admittedly sakanade doesn't totally ruin Starrk's chances the way KS does. Starrk was the epitome of hollow.
    I'm not sure how you believe Yama's flames can counter Respira but not destroy Starrk's wolves. Unless Rose's Shikai attack just happened to be one of the few things which worked against the wolves, I believe that it would be safe to say that Yama could destroy them too. Judging by his fight against Shunsui et al, the amount of wolves Starrk can produce is limited, whether by Reiatsu or the fact that he can only use so much of his "soul" I don't know. So either after Yama tanks so many explosions or after he destroys so many wolves, Starrk won't be able to produce any more. Even if they were unlimited however, I don't believe that Yama would just go on the defensive - he would attack Starrk with his flames while destroying/tanking the wolves as needed. I don't believe that Starrk could take too many flame attacks from Yama, or even slashes with his sealed sword. I agree with you that at least some wolves will probably hit Yama, we just seem to disagree on how many he can tank.

    By the way, Starrk is one of my favorite characters, I'm in no way trying to troll him, I just truly believe in this case that he doesn't really have a chance against Yama.

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  3. #47
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    How the HECK does SS win scenario 1? Even scenario 2 is extremely difficult for the captains. Yama won't be soloing everyone without RJ, wondy, stark and barry combined is more than enough to take him down. Meanwhile yammy, ulq and hallibel should hold off rest of the captains long enough for at least stark to return. Scenario 1 espadas rape.

  4. #48
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootToKill View Post
    Well, Starrk starts off with this many wolves, and although Love and Rose destroyed some with their Shikai attacks, it appears that they re-form.
    They didn't destroy them with those attacks, the wolves were shown to be more or less intangible like flames—which is actually the main reason why I don't see Yamamoto being able to stop them with his own flames.

    Quote Quote:
    The panel which shows the wolves actually latching onto Love and Rose is zoomed in very close to them, so we can't really tell how many wolves are actually surrounding them.
    Look at the resulting explosions, you definitely see nowhere near the 50 or so Starrk started out with. Like I said definitely no more than 10. The first time they got blown up they only got hit by one wolf each, and that alone was enough to knock them out of hollowfication. The second time they were unmasked so there's no way they would have still been standing after getting hit with more than a handful.


    Quote Quote:
    I seriously don't believe that I overhype Yama, but I believe that he exceeds all other characters in Bleach in two areas: Raw Zanpaktou power and durability. The former due to Aizen's comment, and the latter due to his tanking feat. The flames of RJ contained within WW had enough explosive power to destroy the Real Karakura Town, and he was able to not only survive this blast, but have enough strength left to perform a Hado level 96.
    I agree about RJ based on what Aizen said, but I'm still skeptical about him being the most durable. Like I said before, he tanked that explosion but those were his own bloody flames. I don't see how a fire-type like him is not going to have some sort of added resistant to flame attacks, particularly his own! Otherwise, how could he stand to be engulfed by the flames his shikai puts out without being injured himself. Same deal for Toushirou and his ice. If Toushirou somehow hit himself with HH and managed to bust himself out, I wouldn't find that to be very impressive.

    And yeah, he did still have the strength left to pull off a hadou 96, but honestly I doubt that was anywhere near full-powered. That's supposed to be a forbidden sacrificial kidou and all it does is slightly singe Aizen's clothes? That's just proof that Yamamoto was effectively defeated by his own attack.

    Quote Quote:
    I'll argue against anyone who says Yama will defeat Aizen even if he uses KS, or says that his Reiatsu alone will negate Respira, but I honestly don't think that the wolves will be a problem for him, at least not for long enough to prevent him from killing Starrk. Also, if Love and Rose could destroy wolves with their Shikai attacks, I wouldn't be surprised if Yama's were also capable of doing so.
    Only Rose was able to destroy a bunch of them with izayoi bara. To be honest I'm not totally sure how that attack works, but Yamamoto is pretty much limited to throwing fire, and I personally don't think that would damage the wolves at all.

    Quote Quote:
    You're right about WW being awestruck, I believe that if he hadn't been in this state he would have been able to dodge Yama. But I don't believe that WW is slower than Starrk for a start,
    Well sorry but feat wise he is. He never demonstrated the kind of speed or reaction times Starrk did. And PLEASE don't bring up WW jumping in front of Yamamoto's punch. That's a terrible example of a speed feat. You, me, and anyone else here could do that.

    Quote Quote:
    and Starrk isn't above being hesitant in battle either, as was evident at the end of his battle with Shunsui - instead of reacting or dodging, he just stood there when Shunsui called black.
    In Starrk's defense though he had a haori in his face and was mortally wounded. As far as I know Yamamoto doesn't use distractions when he fights, and he doesn't seem like the type to use cheap shots.

    Quote Quote:
    WW being retarded doesn't seem to have affected his fighting ability, whereas Starrk's reflective nature put him somewhat at a disadvantage - he essentially wanted to give up on realizing the strength of Shunsui and the Vizards, how is he going to feel going up against Yama?
    Umm yeah it did. Do you really want me to go through at put up links to all the times he stood around going "ooooh aaaahhh"?

    Starrk at least has Lilynette to pep talk him. If he's reached the point where he brings out the wolves that probably means he's gotten serious, at which point Yamamoto is boned. If by some miracle the guy is still alive after taking 50 of them, Starrk can just break out his 2x energy swords and finish the job himself.

    Quote Quote:
    WW wasn't really a Numeros in the typical sense... he was in a category of his own, and certainly had the power of a high level Espada.
    Well that's debatable. I for one wouldn't put his power anywhere near the top 4. Nor do I think Yamamoto could hand to hand any of the top 4 either. I see unarmed Yamamoto at the level of a mid-tier captain using his/her respective shikai. Shikai Yamamoto I would place slightly above a mid-tier's bankai.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, the fact that he took essentially no damage from masked Mashiro's attacks unreleased and although Mashiro is ofc not Captain level, the mask would have added a lot of power to her attacks. I don't really have much else to go on to prove WW's durability, but my guess is that it would be no less than Starrk's.
    Well I wouldn't say he took no damage. I forgot who I had this debate with before, but I would say that based on the fact that Ulquiorra could HSR while sealed, WW could as well. Mashiro actually KO'd WW for a long time when she dropped kicked him. I'd say he regenerated during that time. But overall it's like you said, Mashiro isn't exactly a powerhouse. You saw how quickly she got taken out w/o her mask. Meanwhile unmasked Kensei casually intercepts WWs fist and tosses him into a building. So yeah, I wouldn't even put masked Mashiro on the level of unmasked/unarmed Kensei.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm not sure how you believe Yama's flames can counter Respira but not destroy Starrk's wolves. Unless Rose's Shikai attack just happened to be one of the few things which worked against the wolves,
    That's actually pretty much exactly what I believe.

    Quote Quote:
    I believe that it would be safe to say that Yama could destroy them too. Judging by his fight against Shunsui et al, the amount of wolves Starrk can produce is limited, whether by Reiatsu or the fact that he can only use so much of his "soul" I don't know. So either after Yama tanks so many explosions or after he destroys so many wolves, Starrk won't be able to produce any more. Even if they were unlimited however, I don't believe that Yama would just go on the defensive - he would attack Starrk with his flames while destroying/tanking the wolves as needed. I don't believe that Starrk could take too many flame attacks from Yama, or even slashes with his sealed sword. I agree with you that at least some wolves will probably hit Yama, we just seem to disagree on how many he can tank.
    I guess so. You probably know by now that I tend to think the vaizards, particularly the former captains, are all a tier above the gotei 13 captains. In other words, if Starrk was able to stop two of them using less than a dozen (that's a generous estimate by the way), there's no way Yamamoto alone survives many more. Also keep in mind stamina is Yamamoto's weakest score in the DB.
    Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; May 27, 2011 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #49
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by Plyr88 View Post
    ***The battle begins. Szayel is behind his Espada comrades to buy him a few seconds in order to release...and then spray the whole flippin' field with his cloning goo. If he hits any of the captains...GREAT!! If he hits his Espada comrades...GREAT!! If it's only one group he gets or both, his side automatically gets stronger because they acquire more fighters.***
    You know how fast Soifon and Shunsui are, especially if Shunsui uses Shadows... I think if SS saw somebody who obviously needed a little bit of time in order to release, who the other espadas were trying to protect, they'd go and blit him straight away...

    And as for being offed by your own attack, do you think Starkk could take the wolves? Barragan can't take his own move, Hachi showed us that... Think Gin could survive his bankai?

    Epic Brofist!

  6. #50
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    You know how fast Soifon and Shunsui are, especially if Shunsui uses Shadows... I think if SS saw somebody who obviously needed a little bit of time in order to release, who the other espadas were trying to protect, they'd go and blit him straight away...

    And as for being offed by your own attack, do you think Starkk could take the wolves? Barragan can't take his own move, Hachi showed us that... Think Gin could survive his bankai?
    we're fighting in FKT so most likely everyone will be in the sky, there won't be any easy shadows. we've seen how fast soifon is, with respira catching up to her and all. clearly the captains will be able to take out Szayel in the 2 seconds that he needs to release and then use his clone ability, the rest of the espadas will be sitting idle.

    I don't think even Rose's attack managed to permanently destroy the wolves, they seem to disintegrate then reform out of nowhere (below the rubble on the ground and there were no signs of them ever going there).

    I doubt stark alone can take on yama, although he stands a pretty good chance if he got serious quickly and take WW with him.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 27, 2011 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #51
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    we're fighting in FKT so most likely everyone will be in the sky, there won't be any easy shadows. we've seen how fast soifon is, with respira catching up to her and all. clearly the captains will be able to take out Szayel in the 2 seconds that he needs to release and then use his clone ability, the rest of the espadas will be sitting idle.

    I don't think even Rose's attack managed to permanently destroy the wolves, they seem to disintegrate then reform out of nowhere (below the rubble on the ground and there were no signs of them ever going there).

    I doubt stark alone can take on yama, although he stands a pretty good chance if he got serious quickly and take WW with him.
    Basic physics. The closer somebody is to the light, the larger their shadow is. All flying means much, much longer shadows...

    Epic Brofist!

  8. #52
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    They didn't destroy them with those attacks, the wolves were shown to be more or less intangible like flames—which is actually the main reason why I don't see Yamamoto being able to stop them with his own flames.

    Look at the resulting explosions, you definitely see nowhere near the 50 or so Starrk started out with. Like I said definitely no more than 10. The first time they got blown up they only got hit by one wolf each, and that alone was enough to knock them out of hollowfication. The second time they were unmasked so there's no way they would have still been standing after getting hit with more than a handful.
    Only one wolf was shown attaching itself to each of them, but as I said, it was highly zoomed in, so it's highly possible that there were more wolves surrounding them. Indeed, the explosion looks pretty immense, but I can't prove that it consisted of more than one wolf, so I won't try to. However, the second explosion starts here, and continues onto the next page, well into Starrk's "they're not ceros..." speech. As you can see, on both pages the explosion consists of a number of comparatively small spherical explosions. Now, each of these has to be pretty much instantaneous - a spherical explosion will continue to expand until it dissipates extremely quickly, and we see the spherical explosions still going on after Starrk has been talking for a while on the next page. So this indicates to me that these explosions have been going on throughout Starrk's speech, during which time a significant amount must have occurred - my guess is the original 50 or so.

    As for addressing why they were still standing after so many when it only took very few to break their masks, I think that it'd perfectly reasonable. The mask might provide a good speed/power boost, but they are hardly durable - they seem in general to break after only minimal exertion, they only last a few minutes as it is. Just look at how easily Ichigo's shatters on various occasions, and Mashiro's after basically delivering a few kicks to WW.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    I agree about RJ based on what Aizen said, but I'm still skeptical about him being the most durable. Like I said before, he tanked that explosion but those were his own bloody flames. I don't see how a fire-type like him is not going to have some sort of added resistant to flame attacks, particularly his own! Otherwise, how could he stand to be engulfed by the flames his shikai puts out without being injured himself. Same deal for Toushirou and his ice. If Toushirou somehow hit himself with HH and managed to bust himself out, I wouldn't find that to be very impressive.
    I don't think that Bleach fights work this way - I don't believe that a character with an elemental mastery has any greater resistance to that element than others of equal durability. Sure, if Yama was facing another powerful opponent with fire based attacks, he would likely be able to counter a number of them with his own fire attacks, but since he didn't have access to RJ, he was imo as vulnerable to the explosion as anyone else would have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    And yeah, he did still have the strength left to pull off a hadou 96, but honestly I doubt that was anywhere near full-powered. That's supposed to be a forbidden sacrificial kidou and all it does is slightly singe Aizen's clothes? That's just proof that Yamamoto was effectively defeated by his own attack.
    True, it was probably greatly weakened, but the fact that he was still conscious at all, let alone able to still perform an advanced attack, was still impressive to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Only Rose was able to destroy a bunch of them with izayoi bara. To be honest I'm not totally sure how that attack works, but Yamamoto is pretty much limited to throwing fire, and I personally don't think that would damage the wolves at all.
    I can't definitively say you're wrong or right on this, but I think it would be quite a coincidence if Rose just happened to have one of the few attacks which was capable of destroying the wolves. Rose isn't Urahara - he had no means of analyzing Starrk's attack and coming up with the perfect counter, he just used an attack and it worked, which leads me to believe that a lot of others would as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Well sorry but feat wise he is. He never demonstrated the kind of speed or reaction times Starrk did. And PLEASE don't bring up WW jumping in front of Yamamoto's punch. That's a terrible example of a speed feat. You, me, and anyone else here could do that.
    I think that it was quite a bit more impressive that you claim, but I won't press the issue as I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to change your opinion on the matter

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    In Starrk's defense though he had a haori in his face and was mortally wounded. As far as I know Yamamoto doesn't use distractions when he fights, and he doesn't seem like the type to use cheap shots.
    True, he was wounded, but he was still capable of essentially blitzing Shunsui a moment ago, so I think it's safe to say that he hesitated in a similar manner to WW against Yama, although admittedly the Haori distraction didn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Umm yeah it did. Do you really want me to go through at put up links to all the times he stood around going "ooooh aaaahhh"?
    I meant when fighting against Yama really, he seemed to really be going for it at this stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Starrk at least has Lilynette to pep talk him. If he's reached the point where he brings out the wolves that probably means he's gotten serious, at which point Yamamoto is boned. If by some miracle the guy is still alive after taking 50 of them, Starrk can just break out his 2x energy swords and finish the job himself.
    I personally think that Yama could definitely take 50 (since I believe Love and Rose took arounf this amount), but I think he'll finish Starrk off before this happens anyway - imo he's at least Starrk's equal in terms of speed, and his superior in every other attribute (except perhaps for intellect), but Starrk's intellect isn't going to help him too much against Yama's pure brute force. I would expect Yama to go straight for Starrk, tanking all the wolves he needs to on the way, and once he reaches Starrk, he has the significant advantage imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Well that's debatable. I for one wouldn't put his power anywhere near the top 4. Nor do I think Yamamoto could hand to hand any of the top 4 either. I see unarmed Yamamoto at the level of a mid-tier captain using his/her respective shikai. Shikai Yamamoto I would place slightly above a mid-tier's bankai.
    Yeah, our opinions seem to differ on this one - I would put WW's physical strength above any of the Espada, although he has less impressive abilities than Starrk or Barragan. His HSR also provides him with an immense advantage. As for unarmed Yama being mid tier Captain in Shikai level, I can't take that seriously - by mid tier I'm guessing you mean someone like Byakuya? Yama would utterly destroy him unarmed, even in Bankai if you ask me. Now, I didn't want to bring this up because I know it's a controversial issue, but the manga definitely made it look as though WW defeated Kensei in Bankai, and I believe you would rate Kensei as high tier, so if this were true, then Yama unarmed would in fact be if anything superior to a high tier Captain in Bankai. I'm pretty sure that you don't think that WW defeated Kensei, but to me it seems like the most probable scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Well I wouldn't say he took no damage. I forgot who I had this debate with before, but I would say that based on the fact that Ulquiorra could HSR while sealed, WW could as well. Mashiro actually KO'd WW for a long time when she dropped kicked him. I'd say he regenerated during that time. But overall it's like you said, Mashiro isn't exactly a powerhouse. You saw how quickly she got taken out w/o her mask. Meanwhile unmasked Kensei casually intercepts WWs fist and tosses him into a building. So yeah, I wouldn't even put masked Mashiro on the level of unmasked/unarmed Kensei.
    Yeah, it seems you're right about her having KO'd him. I wouldn't say that tossing him into a building is an equal feat to knocking him out cold for a while though, I mean Poww sent Komamura flying, but was basically fodder himself. Mashiro preferred unarmed combat over using her Zanpaktou, and the mask gives a considerable strength boost, so I would say that her masked kicks were quite a bit above the typical VC level attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    That's actually pretty much exactly what I believe.
    Let's just agree to disagree on this one.



    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    I guess so. You probably know by now that I tend to think the vaizards, particularly the former captains, are all a tier above the gotei 13 captains. In other words, if Starrk was able to stop two of them using less than a dozen (that's a generous estimate by the way), there's no way Yamamoto alone survives many more. Also keep in mind stamina is Yamamoto's weakest score in the DB.
    As I've already stated above, I think that Love and Rose took more closer to the original 50, so Yama taking a similar number would imo be no problem for him. Although I would put the Vizard Captains above mid tier, Shinji especially, I would put Yama and Aizen a significant amount above them. And as far as durability is concerned, Yama comes out ahead of anyone as he has, imo, performed the most impressive durability feat in Bleach. I don't really pay attention to the DB, but if I did, I would take stamina more to mean how long he can maintain his attacks at full power, not how much punishment he can take - tanking the EJ explosion was enough of a feat for me to regard his durability as superior to anyone else's.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    Basic physics. The closer somebody is to the light, the larger their shadow is. All flying means much, much longer shadows...
    and the shadow will be cast on the ground...too far away for shunsui to reach the guy in the sky...why the hell do you think shunsui stabbed stark only when he lowered himself to the top of a building?

    basic common sense...

  10. #54
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    lol at this thread didn't this already happen? SS win both scenarios, seriously Espada suck -__-

  11. #55
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    lol at this thread didn't this already happen? SS win both scenarios, seriously Espada suck -__-
    Comments like this are partly why I made this thread. Please explain how SS minus Yama are going to handle Starrk (with wolves) and Barragan. Also, this is an all vs all battle, without convenient matchups or plot devices to save the members of SS from getting owned, so I'd like to see an explanation of how the Espada won't stomp at least in the first round.

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  13. #56
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootToKill View Post
    Only one wolf was shown attaching itself to each of them, but as I said, it was highly zoomed in, so it's highly possible that there were more wolves surrounding them. Indeed, the explosion looks pretty immense, but I can't prove that it consisted of more than one wolf, so I won't try to. However, the second explosion starts here, and continues onto the next page, well into Starrk's "they're not ceros..." speech. As you can see, on both pages the explosion consists of a number of comparatively small spherical explosions. Now, each of these has to be pretty much instantaneous - a spherical explosion will continue to expand until it dissipates extremely quickly, and we see the spherical explosions still going on after Starrk has been talking for a while on the next page. So this indicates to me that these explosions have been going on throughout Starrk's speech, during which time a significant amount must have occurred - my guess is the original 50 or so.
    Well I can't think of a proper rebuttal right now, but I always saw that second scan as the same explosions from the first one. As you can see the spheres seem to more spread out and the ones towards the bottom already look like they're dissipating. You may be right, but even if we combine the total number of circles shown between the two pages it's still a lot less than 50. I don't believe they were continuously bombarded off panel while Starrk was talking.


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    As for addressing why they were still standing after so many when it only took very few to break their masks, I think that it'd perfectly reasonable. The mask might provide a good speed/power boost, but they are hardly durable - they seem in general to break after only minimal exertion, they only last a few minutes as it is. Just look at how easily Ichigo's shatters on various occasions, and Mashiro's after basically delivering a few kicks to WW.
    If it was simply a case of the masks themselves being destroyed they should have been able to re-apply them right away. The explosion didn't just destroy their masks though, it caused enough damage that they couldn't re-hollowfy right away. In the cases of Mashiro and Ichigo that's a different story, their masks shattered on them because they hit their limits. Love and Rose has just put their masks on and were obviously nowhere near their limit.

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    I don't think that Bleach fights work this way - I don't believe that a character with an elemental mastery has any greater resistance to that element than others of equal durability. Sure, if Yama was facing another powerful opponent with fire based attacks, he would likely be able to counter a number of them with his own fire attacks, but since he didn't have access to RJ, he was imo as vulnerable to the explosion as anyone else would have been.
    Strongly disagree. What WW had absorbed was basically just all the flames that Yamamoto had brought out up until that point (he didn't actually absorb EJ like you mentioned further down). If Yamamoto had no added resistant to his own shikai flames, how does he stand to be surrounded/engulfed by them? Same goes for Toushirou as I said in my last post. The kid is literally surrounded by his ice, but clearly it doesn't negatively affect him. I think it's a safe bet to say bleach characters have added resistance to attacks from their own element, or at the very least from their own zanpakutou.


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    True, it was probably greatly weakened, but the fact that he was still conscious at all, let alone able to still perform an advanced attack, was still impressive to me.
    Okay, you found it impressive; I didn't. There's really no comparable feat in bleach (someone getting hit by their own attack and nearly being offed by it) so you can see how someone like me can have doubts about how big of a tank Yamamoto is. I think he is a tank, but I don't seem him just walking away from twice the amount of punishment that a would easily down a captain.

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    I can't definitively say you're wrong or right on this, but I think it would be quite a coincidence if Rose just happened to have one of the few attacks which was capable of destroying the wolves. Rose isn't Urahara - he had no means of analyzing Starrk's attack and coming up with the perfect counter, he just used an attack and it worked, which leads me to believe that a lot of others would as well.
    I thought that was pretty much exactly what happened. He noticed how conventional attacks wouldn't work on the wolves so he specifically pulled out his sonata #11.

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    I personally think that Yama could definitely take 50 (since I believe Love and Rose took arounf this amount), but I think he'll finish Starrk off before this happens anyway - imo he's at least Starrk's equal in terms of speed, and his superior in every other attribute (except perhaps for intellect), but Starrk's intellect isn't going to help him too much against Yama's pure brute force. I would expect Yama to go straight for Starrk, tanking all the wolves he needs to on the way, and once he reaches Starrk, he has the significant advantage imo.
    I would expect Yama to go straight for Starrk too, but Starrk is hard enough to hit as it is, let alone when he's either spamming ceros or has his wolves out. In the case of the wolves, yeah there's no way that Yama is anywhere near 100% after taking 50 (my opinion it doesn't take anywhere near that many to kill him) at which point catching Starrk is going to be bitch.

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    Yeah, our opinions seem to differ on this one - I would put WW's physical strength above any of the Espada, although he has less impressive abilities than Starrk or Barragan. His HSR also provides him with an immense advantage. As for unarmed Yama being mid tier Captain in Shikai level, I can't take that seriously - by mid tier I'm guessing you mean someone like Byakuya? Yama would utterly destroy him unarmed, even in Bankai if you ask me. Now, I didn't want to bring this up because I know it's a controversial issue, but the manga definitely made it look as though WW defeated Kensei in Bankai, and I believe you would rate Kensei as high tier, so if this were true, then Yama unarmed would in fact be if anything superior to a high tier Captain in Bankai. I'm pretty sure that you don't think that WW defeated Kensei, but to me it seems like the most probable scenario.
    Well that's essentially what this comes down to. Either you believe WW solo'd Kensei or you don't. I obviously don't, but I'll admit that if I did I'd be in agreement with you. Bankai Kensei is clearly stronger than everyone in SS besides Yamamoto, and if WW beat him then yes, this means unarmed Yamamoto >>>>>> Bankai Kensei and every other bankai so far. Now what does this tell us about Shikai Yamamoto? He must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bankai Kensei. What about about Bankai Yamamoto?? See that's what I refuse to believe, that such a TREMENDOUS power gap exists between Yamamoto and everyone else.

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    Yeah, it seems you're right about her having KO'd him. I wouldn't say that tossing him into a building is an equal feat to knocking him out cold for a while though, I mean Poww sent Komamura flying, but was basically fodder himself. Mashiro preferred unarmed combat over using her Zanpaktou, and the mask gives a considerable strength boost, so I would say that her masked kicks were quite a bit above the typical VC level attack.
    See the thing with Mashiro is that I don't believe she's a CQC expert or even good at it. I think she just fought unarmed cause she's overconfident and dumb. Naturally I would assume Mashiro would be stronger with her zanpakutou. In other words, that just goes to show how big a boost the mask is: it can turn a physically weak VC level into a moderately dangerous opponent even unarmed. In my opinion Lisa and Hiyori fighting unarmed with their masks would have done a lot better, let alone Kensei or one of the captains.

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    As I've already stated above, I think that Love and Rose took more closer to the original 50, so Yama taking a similar number would imo be no problem for him. Although I would put the Vizard Captains above mid tier, Shinji especially, I would put Yama and Aizen a significant amount above them. And as far as durability is concerned, Yama comes out ahead of anyone as he has, imo, performed the most impressive durability feat in Bleach. I don't really pay attention to the DB, but if I did, I would take stamina more to mean how long he can maintain his attacks at full power, not how much punishment he can take - tanking the EJ explosion was enough of a feat for me to regard his durability as superior to anyone else's.
    That's what I was referring to above. That explosion wasn't EJ. That was just all of the flames WW had absorbed being released all at once. Remember that EJ was supposed to have killed Aizen, Yamamoto, and everyone else; we obviously never then saw the completed attack, unless you want to use Gran Maestro's argument (that Yama was lying about himself also dying so his subordinates [who would have died] wouldn't feel bad).
    Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; May 29, 2011 at 08:07 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    You people are making me sad



    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Okay, you found it impressive; I didn't. There's really no comparable feat in bleach (someone getting hit by their own attack and nearly being offed by it) so you can see how someone like me can have doubts about how big of a tank Yamamoto is. I think he is a tank, but I don't seem him just walking away from twice the amount of punishment that a would easily down a captain.





    I would expect Yama to go straight for Starrk too, but Starrk is hard enough to hit as it is, let alone when he's either spamming ceros or has his wolves out. In the case of the wolves, yeah there's no way that Yama is anywhere near 100% after taking 50 (my opinion it doesn't take anywhere near that many to kill him) at which point catching Starrk is going to be bitch.



    Well that's essentially what this comes down to. Either you believe WW solo'd Kensei or you don't. I obviously don't, but I'll admit that if I did I'd be in agreement with you. Bankai Kensei is clearly stronger than everyone in SS besides Yamamoto, and if WW beat him then yes, this means unarmed Yamamoto >>>>>> Bankai Kensei and every other bankai so far. Now what does this tell us about Shikai Yamamoto? He must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bankai Kensei. What about about Bankai Yamamoto?? See that's what I refuse to believe, that such a TREMENDOUS power gap exists between Yamamoto and everyone else.
    Give me one piece of evidence than Bankai Kensei is stronger than Shikai Shunsui or even Bankai Byakuya. Because I personally rate Shunsui, Byakuya, hell, probably Kenpachi higher than Kensei.
    So yeah.

    As for being offed by your own attack, it's not hard to believe. For Instance, Tosen was hit by an attack considerably weaker than his own to kill him. Why do you think Byakuya can survive the Bankai release of Senbonsakura, or Kenpachi survive a high-powered sword slash. Actually, that's a point. Kenpachi's attacks are sword-slashes, right? Possibly with high killing spirit behind them? How did Ichigo beat him?

    There's nothing to even insinuate that people are immune to their own attacks being used against them, and in fact Starkk dodging his own Cero kinda proves it's effective. Otherwise he'd just take it.

    So Yamamamoto being able to survive an attack that had the strongest SS captain ready to die, after being aided by his friend Ukitake, kinda proves that Yamamoto is a tank...

    There is really no way SS can't win if Yamamoto can't be contained. I'd say he can beat Barragan quite easily, especially if teamed up with someone else. He can handle Espada >2 on his own, without much effort. Starkk can fight Shunsui and Ukitake, he's out. And Kenpachi, Maryui and crew can mop up the rest...

    Epic Brofist!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    Give me one piece of evidence than Bankai Kensei is stronger than ... Bankai Byakuya. Because I personally rate ... Byakuya, hell, probably Kenpachi higher than Kensei.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    You people are making me sad
    I hope you realize this isn't how debating works; you kinda made the claim, you've got to provide evidence. But anyways, if you really want proof then how about this?

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-620-9/...apter-166.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-674-3/...apter-220.html

    There's Shikai Kensei owning Hichigo. Yes I realize Lisa has the same feat; that just means she's stronger than Byakuya (remember her taking on Harribel alone before Hiyori and Shiro interfered? Yeah, OK)

    If you're feelin' lucky you can have the Ichigo's identity debate:

    Watch this:

    http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost...3&postcount=90

    Lisa vs Byakuya.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    I really hope you aren't suggesting that Sealed Lisa unmasked is superior to Bankai Byakuya just because she fought a type of Hollow Ichigo and had a short skirmish with a Halibel who may or may not have been drained after taking HH.

    The most obvious problem with that comparison is that Ichigo could not, under any circumstances lose his fight against Byakuya. Whether it be Grimmjow and his random resolve boost in strength that crushes him in a single attack, or a Hollow takeover in his fight against Byakuya, Ichigo will always have an unbeatable powerup when he needs to win. While fighting in his inner world, his outer Hollow Shell had no story reason to win, it was purely an aesthetic way of showing his limited amount of time, and thus, could have the shit beaten out of it.

    If this weren't a story, and were real life, sure, I'd bet on the full Hollow guy being tougher than the crazy guy with half a mask, but this isn't the case. It should always be obvious that when in situations where it is 100% necessary for the plot that Ichigo wins to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Byakuya being Ichigo's rival in the SS arc was the worst thing that could have happened to him for future fantasy fights, he'll always be underestimated because he lost to the main character. Why doesn't Kenpachi get trashed because of this too...?

    I don't think I'm underestimating the Vaizards. Barring Shinji, Hachi, and possibly Love, none have shown anything significant enough to hold so highly. Hopefully they can show something more in the future. Byakuya too.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
    I really hope you aren't suggesting that Sealed Lisa unmasked is superior to Bankai Byakuya just because she fought a type of Hollow Ichigo and had a short skirmish with a Halibel who may or may not have been drained after taking HH.

    The most obvious problem with that comparison is that Ichigo could not, under any circumstances lose his fight against Byakuya. Whether it be Grimmjow and his random resolve boost in strength that crushes him in a single attack, or a Hollow takeover in his fight against Byakuya, Ichigo will always have an unbeatable powerup when he needs to win. While fighting in his inner world, his outer Hollow Shell had no story reason to win, it was purely an aesthetic way of showing his limited amount of time, and thus, could have the shit beaten out of it.

    If this weren't a story, and were real life, sure, I'd bet on the full Hollow guy being tougher than the crazy guy with half a mask, but this isn't the case. It should always be obvious that when in situations where it is 100% necessary for the plot that Ichigo wins to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Byakuya being Ichigo's rival in the SS arc was the worst thing that could have happened to him for future fantasy fights, he'll always be underestimated because he lost to the main character. Why doesn't Kenpachi get trashed because of this too...?

    I don't think I'm underestimating the Vaizards. Barring Shinji, Hachi, and possibly Love, none have shown anything significant enough to hold so highly. Hopefully they can show something more in the future. Byakuya too.
    sort of an aside. I constantly see people continuously playing down certain arrancar's abilities because they lost to Ichigo (grimmjow/ulquiorra) while hyping up Byakuya's instead. just because Byakuya lost to the main character doesn't make the fight much less illegitimate. I could use the same argument to basically all the bad guys who lost because hey, in shonen bad guys don't win right? many valid points can and should still be take from the fight, such as bankai Ichigo blitzing byakuya, and hollow ichigo overpowering him in a confined space should be taken as canon.

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