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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • The Espada win both scenarios

    9 36.00%
  • The Espada win scenario #1, but not scenario #2

    2 8.00%
  • Soul Society win both scenarios

    14 56.00%
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Thread: Soul Society vs The Espada

  1. #61
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    I don't particularly see why I shouldn't at least believe that base Lisa is more powerful than base Byakuya. Those who tend to cite Byakuya's great points also cite the fact that he trained with Yoruichi in Shunpo. What they left out was that Yoruichi stopped training him when he was a teenager, at which point Lisa Yadomaru was already Shunsui's Vice Captain. So Lisa's actually been around for longer. To top it off she has her mask to increase her base stats even more, so yes, that's something I'd consider.

  2. #62
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    sort of an aside. I constantly see people continuously playing down certain arrancar's abilities because they lost to Ichigo (grimmjow/ulquiorra) while hyping up Byakuya's instead. just because Byakuya lost to the main character doesn't make the fight much less illegitimate. I could use the same argument to basically all the bad guys who lost because hey, in shonen bad guys don't win right? many valid points can and should still be take from the fight, such as bankai Ichigo blitzing byakuya, and hollow ichigo overpowering him in a confined space should be taken as canon.
    I would accept that if Ichigo wasn't the most inconsistent guy in the manga. His showing against Byakuya was probably the best he's ever had barring his Dangai Training self.

    For example, Ichigo blitzed Byakuya, yet after the SS arc, Sealed Grimmjow beats the tar out of him with his bare hands, laughing all the way, and commenting on how he only has "average speed". Things with Ichigo just don't add up properly.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    I don't particularly see why I shouldn't at least believe that base Lisa is more powerful than base Byakuya. Those who tend to cite Byakuya's great points also cite the fact that he trained with Yoruichi in Shunpo. What they left out was that Yoruichi stopped training him when he was a teenager, at which point Lisa Yadomaru was already Shunsui's Vice Captain. So Lisa's actually been around for longer. To top it off she has her mask to increase her base stats even more, so yes, that's something I'd consider.
    Age isn't much of an argument though. Lisa may have been a VC at the time, but his grandfather was also a captain, whom he's long since surpassed. Byakuya's in the genius (in the Japanese sense) category.

    And yes, Byakuya was not trained by Yoroichi for a particularly long time as far as we can tell, , but that doesn't change the fact that he's shown a lot of impressive Shunpo either way. He's also extremely proficient with Kido, and is probably the highest captain in terms of the variety in the feats he has with it. Honestly, I think he's easily one of the most powerful Sealed captains.

    The mask makes a difference, but I don't believe she'll be blitzing him, she may become physically more powerful, but that's never been Byakuya's forte anyway.
    Last edited by Takahashi; May 31, 2011 at 12:41 PM.

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  4. #63
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity hakuthehedgehog's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Hitsugaya uses HH while Byakuya protects SS: espadas 3 and below and intantly killed.

    Then all the captains wtfpwn the remaining espadas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    On that topic, anyone else think Naruto's the type of guy who would cry after sex?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I fount it interesting that had Kushina not gotten knocked up, None of them would be in the current situation. She's more responsible for the Uchiha massacre then Danzo and co. Crap, Now Sasuke has a valid reason to use his hatred against Naruto.
    LMFAO

  5. #64
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Ichigo getting owned by grim back then might be because he was trying to hold back as he did not have control over his hollow at the time. Once he obtained the mask he dominated grimmjow(albeit one arm) pretty badly. I do not see why the ichigo after he mastered his mask is worse than SS ichigo. Is it really ridiculous to think that grimmjow and ulquiorra are more powerful than byakuya? Especially considering if Aizen was the one who planned which people ichigo would fight like he claimed, why would he choose weaker opponents if he planned Ichigo to be getting stronger? And was SS ichigo really that amazing?the first time he blitzed byakuya he wasnt expecting it, second time byakuya was surprised ichigo overcame his bankai petals. Ichigo did overcome SKY's base form but he clearly struggled against senkei (ok he was slowing down but byakuya was also massively holding back by not using all of his swords), he had to use his hollow who unsurprisingly overpowered byakuya(who by now had no defensive measures) in such a confined space, not to mention he also had the element of surprise. He then weakened byakuya sufficiently to destroy his zanpakuto. Byakuya still could have fought on with kido but he chose not to.

    ---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

    HH won't be killing ulquiorra, the top 5(including yammy) is still enough to take down SS.
    Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 31, 2011 at 01:53 PM.

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  7. #65
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    I have to respectfully disagree with the top 5 being capable enough to take on the captains.
    There's too much to account for in a match like this. 5 espada aren't beating 8/9 captains.

  8. #66
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by hakuthehedgehog View Post
    Hitsugaya uses HH while Byakuya protects SS: espadas 3 and below and intantly killed.

    Then all the captains wtfpwn the remaining espadas.
    Yea, Hitsugaya said when the last flower bloomed, Harribel would die. She was in that ice sculpture for a while before she/WW broke it. She came out unscathed and not even fatigued. It seemed she was simply trapped but not close to being hurt. Just because Hitsugaya says you'll die doesn't mean you'll actually die.

    Now, if we talk about Starrk's wolves, let's see how the captains avoid being blown up repeatedly.

  9. #67
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Trapped in Ice may not mean killed at first, but if you can't get free straight away then you're trapped long enough for the other guys to be defeated.

    I think the debate about SS Ichigo vs Modern Ichigo is summarised by the Byakuya/Ichigo fight, the Byakuya/Yammy fight, and the Yammy/Ichigo (second fight). Yammy vs Ichigo seemed fairly even, Ichigo winning with his mask and drawing without. Byakuya fought Yammy in a stronger, resuccion form, and made it look easy. Hence me thinking SS has got stronger since Ichigo's invasion...

    But SS honestly Stomps. Everybody Espada has a match on the SS team. And with the vast speed of Shunsui, Soifon and even Byakuya, then the Espada won't be able to pick fights...

    Epic Brofist!

  10. #68
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    Trapped in Ice may not mean killed at first, but if you can't get free straight away then you're trapped long enough for the other guys to be defeated.

    I think the debate about SS Ichigo vs Modern Ichigo is summarised by the Byakuya/Ichigo fight, the Byakuya/Yammy fight, and the Yammy/Ichigo (second fight). Yammy vs Ichigo seemed fairly even, Ichigo winning with his mask and drawing without. Byakuya fought Yammy in a stronger, resuccion form, and made it look easy. Hence me thinking SS has got stronger since Ichigo's invasion...

    But SS honestly Stomps. Everybody Espada has a match on the SS team. And with the vast speed of Shunsui, Soifon and even Byakuya, then the Espada won't be able to pick fights...
    Byakuya soloing yammy now eh? Byakuya fanboys never cease to amaze me. Also ichigo had less than half of his reiatsu and an unstable mask when he fought yammy.
    Yeah Soifon's fast, look at her effortlessly escaping respira *sarcasm*.
    also stark has blitzed shunsui/disappeared from his sight on numerous occasions, whereas the opposite never happened. Shunsui had to use backstabs and distractions to land hits on stark.

  11. #69
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by HaouLelouch View Post
    Byakuya soloing yammy now eh? Byakuya fanboys never cease to amaze me. Also ichigo had less than half of his reiatsu and an unstable mask when he fought yammy.
    Well, to be fair, Byakuya most definitely was capable of trashing R1 Yammy. Either Kenpachi or Byakuya was easily sufficient for that. R2 on the other hand...


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah Soifon's fast, look at her effortlessly escaping respira *sarcasm*.
    also stark has blitzed shunsui/disappeared from his sight on numerous occasions, whereas the opposite never happened. Shunsui had to use backstabs and distractions to land hits on stark.
    Yup. Although for the record, I don't think being caught by Respira means you're slow :P I don't think Stark could escape it either, nor Yama for that matter.

  12. #70
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    I thought it was established that Soi Fon's speed isn't that great. Ah well, just my take on the matter of clones:

    ------------------------------



    Have you ever seen the clones argument? Don't try to write it off as a hypothesis. While it may be that, clones being an actual speed feat isn't viable or possible at all. Lemme show ya:

    I'm not downplaying Soi Fon, I'm downplaying the generation of clones. Face it, it's not a direct speed feat, it's only attestable to skill, further emphasized by the fact that clone generation is a technique and even by Aizen as a parlor trick and not referenced as a speed feat. By the way...

    If clones is a byproduct of speed and not a technique then Dangai Ichigo should be generating tons of clones, as should Aizen, Isshin, Urahara, Stark, Shunsui, Yamamoto, not to mention a whole cast of upper tier characters in speed. Is Byakuya the third fastest character in Bleach?

    Not to mention, that being in fifteen places at once and generating tangible clones without some illusory technique is frankly impossible even by Bleach standards. Explained, below.

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz
    So, we've all been wondering, how clones work, right? I can say right now that it's not the person who is making the clone, alternating between the positions of the clones. Naaaah, that's impossible, because not only would people like Zommari and Soi Fon

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-753-16...apter-299.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-753-17...apter-299.html

    Would be stabbing Byakuya in increments, and fighting like that is not only ridiculously inefficient but combat wise is impossible.

    Now, I'd like to turn your attention for the Shinigami technique for creating afterimages: Utsesumi, or its rough translation, Cicada. A Cicada, for those who don't know, is an insect that vibrates its wings at an incredibly fast rate.

    Now, both Zommari and Soi Fon are known for taking lots of small steps to get somewhere, Zommari even explicitly states extra steps to his already many steps result in clones. Now, contrast that with the speed techs of Shunsui and Stark:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-609-6/...apter-155.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-767-16...apter-313.html

    They vanish when they move, and their movement is, at least Shunsui's is, based on only ONE step. Yet it's illogical that Zommari and Soi Fon completely outclass Shunsui and Stark in speed on the basis that the latter two have never created anything even CLOSE to an afterimage. Clones are simply more likely created out of a technique

    Conclusion?

    So right now, the hypothesis is that many many steps create afterimages, while one or two steps create nothing. The fact that the technique for making clones is Utsesumi, which implies some sort of rapid vibration (like for example fast steps) that can create some kind of quasi illusion. (Vibrating spiritrons can create them much like how a fluxing medium in real life can create mirages)

    And that clones don't directly translate into ridiculous speed, for Dangai Ichigo, Hogyoku Aizen (who actually teleported), and Yamamoto have never made clones.

    Besides, has anyone ever wondered why Zommari's maximum is five?
    And that Respira didn't catch a fully mobilized Soi Fon either...

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    Exactly, dude. She had enough time to see Respira take down a pole before she ran away, that's not fast. Soi Fon is fast enough be almost simultaneously in fourteen places at once. If she is able to react to Respira which is empirically slower, then realize that either

    1) She wasn't traveling at full speed
    2) Her speed isn't good. Because if you want to go for the speed route, Omaeda saw his Captain take off. His comment says as much.

    Even we see her take off.

    People like Stark and Shunsui, not even VC/Captain level opponents can react to them initiating movement.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-767-16...apter-313.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-609-6/...apter-155.html

    Yeah, anyways, as you can clearly see, Soi Fon wasn't traveling at full speed at the time. Compound that with little to no knowledge on Respira's abilities and whatever...even then you can check this out.

    Respira hits Soi Fon, and the next moment it disappears. Respira doesn't just "disappear" this shows Soi Fon's hand moving faster than Respira, and shows that Soi Fon easily has the abilities to boost herself a little so that Respira is no longer there.

    That's my analysis. Either Soi Fon wasn't going full throttle, or she's just slow. The evidence suggests the former.
    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    Well, no, because the boost wasn't Shunpo, she just wasn't going her max speed period. If she were truly afraid for her life then she would be looking backwards and she wouldn't be so relaxed...

    And still, Soi Fon's base speed hasn't been shown to be the fastest, or even near the fastest of the Captains. Really.

    Also, Barragan's defenses are overrated, like I've already shown, Jahuko Raikoben only failed because it is a missile that causes an explosion, both of which TDF is easily equipped to deal with. Both ceros, fire, and other techs should be able to get through it a lot more easily than JR.

    Which brings me to my final point, JR isn't as strong as Cero Oscuras. I covered the majority of that argument in another debate, but here are the basics.

    http://i10.mangareader.net/bleach/360/bleach-159584.jpg

    Soi Fon was very close to Barragan when she fired it. Furthermore, The blast itself wasn't so powerful, because the buildings remained intact. Cero Oscuras disintegrates piillars with its shockwave alone. It was not H2 Ichigo's cero for two reasons:

    1) The explosion had not happened yet
    2) They are of similar strength. Both surmises are supported by this panel

    As you can see here everything is intact. Even the damage of the blast of the Cero Oscuras fired in R1 is more destructive (crater on left side.)

  13. #71
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    I thought it was established that Soi Fon's speed isn't that great.
    Wait, what? Where did you get that from? That's like saying Kenpachi doesn't have much Reiatsu... It's her thing, fastest in SS. (Well, I do think Yama is probably faster, but talking strictly captains here).

  14. #72
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    What? No, Soi Fon's known for her speed, but in no way does it make her the fastest. Did you two even read the clones argument I showed you?

  15. #73
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    What? No, Soi Fon's known for her speed, but in no way does it make her the fastest. Did you two even read the clones argument I showed you?
    I wasn't talking about clones at all though. I was talking about what Omaeda said, and the obvious fact that it's the stat she excels in. I've seen no proof that any other captain is faster than her really.

  16. #74
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Omaeda also said a couple of other things, which was that Soi Fon was fighting under the limiter when she was getting beaten around by base Barragan, "Your ass is mine!" when he used Kido against Barragan, and that "Aizen didn't have shit on Barragan" when it was very clear given the flashback that Aizen had a lot of shit over Barragan.

    So, all of those statements were false, and so is the one about Soi Fon's speed. Her getting caught by Respira is more or less proof that she's not the fastest, given that Hachi was able to bullet time Respira

  17. #75
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Soul Society vs The Espada

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    Omaeda also said a couple of other things, which was that Soi Fon was fighting under the limiter when she was getting beaten around by base Barragan, "Your ass is mine!" when he used Kido against Barragan, and that "Aizen didn't have shit on Barragan" when it was very clear given the flashback that Aizen had a lot of shit over Barragan.
    True, however, all of those were disproven VERY shortly after being said, with the one exception being her speed. Again, what evidence do we see of any other captain being faster than her? Hell, Kubo even felt the need to make 15 of her before attacking Aizen. Yes, it's not the exact same as speed, but it's also evident that the author wants to emphasize the fact that she's damn fast.

    Quote Quote:
    So, all of those statements were false, and so is the one about Soi Fon's speed. Her getting caught by Respira is more or less proof that she's not the fastest, given that Hachi was able to bullet time Respira
    Hachi was a substantial distance away, just because he put up a barrier doesn't mean Respira is somehow slow.

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