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Thread: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

  1. #781
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Josl View Post
    The Editors have the Rankings already after 2-3 weeks. When a series clearly fails they are going to place it already near the Bottom and when a series doesn’t fail they are going to place it near the top. BUT this isn’t a rule because it happened more than once that a series was “positioned” well during the 7 weeks and then suddenly plumed. I don’t remember which series exactly but someone who does do statics please show him.
    Someone can show me a case where it does happen, but I can show you many cases where that doesn't happen in that way. So we cannot draw such conclusions.

    Quote Quote:
    Bleach is one of the most popular Mangas they have. Where is it now?
    I doubt that Bleach is one of their most popular mangas right now.

    Quote Quote:
    Then there is a space about 2-4 series, second color, space about 2-5, third color page, space and sometimes a fourth color page.
    Here you acknowledge that it's not fixed.

    Quote Quote:
    Why giving it a color page and then give it back to the bottom when you want to promote it?
    Temporary editorial decisions, as Oda said it.

    Quote Quote:
    I think Magos second season started 3 weeks ago. It got a color page to announce it and where was it the past 2 weeks?
    I think it shows us that Mago may be dead meat for the editorial department, and that they don't even want to promote it anymore. But we'll see.

    Quote Quote:
    Sometimes a series was ranked really high in the TOC even though nothing exiting happened this week BUT after looking back 8 weeks, something really amazing happened 8 weeks ago
    I came to the conclusion even though it wasn’t always 100% accurate it did give a pretty good picture about how the result of the votes were 8 weeks ago
    Let’s just watch Bleach. According to Bleach fans the last few chapters were really amazing BUT it did sink continually week after week. It should start to rise soon if those people were right and in 8 weeks it should be especially high because of the lead color if you can trust Bakuman
    That's a wrong conclusion. There are cases where nothing amazing happened 8 weeks ago, where something good happened 10 or 6 weeks before, etc. Actually, the first error is to assume that one's opinion on a chapter is shared by Japanese voters. We may not think the same thing as them on the same chapters or arc.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes an Anime does push also votes. A bigger Audience starts to follow the series weekly and the votes get higher, therefore the rank gets higher and color pages to promote it further.
    Sket Dance got higher when the anime was announced, 6 months before it actually started. Same thing for Bakuman, even if the arc was bad around that time (in my opinion). Same thing for Mago for the first season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiten View Post
    There are objective, observable reasons to believe there is an eight issue delay while doubt has always been fueled by nothing more than speculation.
    It is actually quite the contrary. This "8 week" rule comes from speculation, and there is nothing objective to prove it.

    Quote Quote:
    Bakuman described the process of building the TOC in detail
    Bakuman shows how the real rankings are made, the one we never get. As for the TOC, I don't think its process has been shown in detail. Oda gives us a different story for the TOC, and he's a confirmed insider, not just someone who got its copy of Jump earlier than other people.

    Quote Quote:
    Chart placement for new series also confirm an eight week delay.
    Actually, no. I already gave you some examples.

    Quote Quote:
    New series have a relatively fixed place in the middle of the magazine for eight issues. Take Ikkyuu as an example. All new series, except short gag, get front color and cover, so discount chapter 1. After that, Ikkyuu has a true ranking of either fifth or seventh (exact position). After exactly eight issues, this pattern ended, with Ikkyuu dropping to the bottom five for it's first true ranking (issue 31) and rising back to the middle for it's second (issue 32). Please if there is any observable evidence to contradict the eight week delay, do share.
    I will gladly do. Ikkyu's ranking:
    1 6 7 7 9 7 7 10 15 10
    Well, that does seem stable enough for me.
    Let's see some other new series (Magico, Dois Sol, Grim, Sengoku, Enigma, Meister):
    1 6 10 11 5 7 5 10 7 10
    1 7 10 11 11 5 12 14 16 19
    1 6 8 8 12 7 15 17 9 15
    1 6 7 8 10 7 11 8 17 18
    1 6 10 9 8 9 8 5 11 5
    1 7 8 12 13 10 12 17 18 19
    As you can see, as soon as chapter 5 we can find differences between rankings. Differences for chapter 7 are obvious, but in your system, you wouldn't consider already ranked. If chapter 7 is ranked according to votes, how could it be, if it's based on 8 chapters ago?

    Quote Quote:
    It will never be canceled, no matter how poorly it ever polls.
    Do we have some information on the fact that it polls poorly, or are we just speculating? Have we considered that KochiKame has always been popular enough to stay here?

    Quote Quote:
    The front and the middle are the most visible parts of the publication, thus magazines place lead articles there and charge the most to advertisers. Thus the first series always has colored pages, and another series is given color pages and placed in the center of the magazine. If more than two series have color pages, they are placed based on where Shueisha can charge the most for advertising
    There are no advertising pages behind single color pages...
    The only real advertising the Jump has is placed at the beginning or at the end, nowhere in the middle.

    Quote Quote:
    Someone with some level of knowledge regarding how the TOC works has stated that there is an eight issue delay between the release of a chapter and when it's poll position is reflected in TOC.
    Source?
    Quote Quote:
    Obata corroborated the same thing in Bakuman.
    Source?

    Quote Quote:
    There has never even been speculation about an alternate amount of time that it takes
    Do you want me to give one? Then we could say that there are different possibilities.

  2. #782
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ruggia's Avatar
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by UHU View Post
    Someone can show me a case where it does happen, but I can show you many cases where that doesn't happen in that way. So we cannot draw such conclusions..
    I'm sure most of the people here still remembers the infamous "Kuroko treatment" not so long ago.

    For quite awhile not-that-long-ago, every time Kuroko hit dead-last or reached the low-Bottom 5, WSJ tried to boost it back up by awarding a color page right after. The cycle of Bottom 5 -> color page -> Bottom 5 -> color page etc continued on for quite a while until Kuroko finally managed to get out of Bottom 5 by itself.
    It was quite ridiculous when WSJ "rescued" Kuroko with color pages to save it from the bottom, only to see it go straight back down the next week. It was quite clear that WSJ was promoting Kuroko massively, yet Kuroko remained at the bottom all those times.
    If the placements are really used to promote certain series, then WSJ should have just places Kuroko new the beginning (or even towards the middle) instead of always bringing back down after it had a color page.
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    I always wondered if the authors in SJ are aware of their own manga rankings every week. I faintly remember the author of Beelzebub, Ryuuhei, commented on one of his colored pages. "In celebration of Beelzebub coming in 2nd place in the rankings." etc..

    That's the only time I remember an author in SJ commenting on the rankings. I normally see, "with the surging popularity" or "thanks for support for helping the manga become a hit" in other manga or magazine.

  4. #784
    Scanlator 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner BlaZin's Avatar
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron21 View Post
    I always wondered if the authors in SJ are aware of their own manga rankings every week. I faintly remember the author of Beelzebub, Ryuuhei, commented on one of his colored pages. "In celebration of Beelzebub coming in 2nd place in the rankings." etc..

    That's the only time I remember an author in SJ commenting on the rankings. I normally see, "with the surging popularity" or "thanks for support for helping the manga become a hit" in other manga or magazine.
    You obviously haven't read Bakuman. It's a great manga and I would recommend reading it. But as for your question, yes the authors are aware of their rankings each week. And even if they weren't aware of how they ranked each week, they would still be able to tell by the TOC, the same as us.

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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by BlaZin View Post
    You obviously haven't read Bakuman. It's a great manga and I would recommend reading it.
    lol, only read up to chapter 20 and stopped. Because at that time, there was only 20 chapters released. I just haven't gotten back to it yet, but since it seems like I'm missing out on a lot of stuff. I'll pick it back up soon.

  6. #786
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    It is confirmed that Asou will return once again with one shot on next issue.

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  8. #787
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Zeromcd's Avatar
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Jump Issue 33 Information

    Lead CP: Naruto
    Cover: Naruto
    Center Colour: Golden Future Cup Entry #2 SINS (47Pages), Magico, Gintama,
    One shot: Chou Nouryokusha Psychic no Sainan (Asou Shuichi)
    Extra Pages: Kagami no Kuni no Harisugawa (23Pages)
    On Break: One Piece

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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    (ST&RS 1 spoilers)
    ST&RS was neat, but the girl is not nearly as likeable as the two MCs.
    The setup wasn't perfect (why is one of the most promising young astronomists a principal of a school in a different country? Principal is not a job related to astronomy no matter which school it is. Also "chosen child" setup which is always very depressing. And lastly, decoding such a message should provide humanity with tons of both info and questions about the aliens, none of which were mentioned in the opening announcement), but I still like it. I'm pretty certain that the two MCs will NOT be able to go to Mars in the first appointed date so it'll be interesting to see where that goes.

    Can't say much about Harisugawa. It was everything I expected it to be, as a fan of Mx0.

  11. #789
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Asarii's Avatar
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    UHU, just out of curiosity what basis are you forming your arguments from? If it's based on observation alone, we're all on the same boat about how the ranking works. I do find your insights interesting though.

    Quote Originally Posted by UHU View Post
    There are no advertising pages behind single color pages...
    The only real advertising the Jump has is placed at the beginning or at the end, nowhere in the middle.
    I have several copies of JUMP, and it does have colour advertisements in the middle of the magazine. Always between the lead cover and the content, but there are also none in the end.

    EDIT: We already have a thread for ST&RS so any discussion about the series will be moved there from here onwards.
    Last edited by Asarii; July 16, 2011 at 12:49 AM.

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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Asarii View Post
    UHU, just out of curiosity what basis are you forming your arguments from? If it's based on observation alone, we're all on the same boat about how the ranking works.
    Of course it's observation, observation of the last 30 years' table of contents. And it's what Oda said too (at that time, he just confirmed what I already thought).

    We're all on the same boat, and this is why I'm surprised people make wild assumptions like this "8 week" rule. I just try to remind everyone that we should trust only the most proven things.

    Quote Quote:
    I have several copies of JUMP, and it does have colour advertisements in the middle of the magazine. Always between the lead cover and the content, but there are also none in the end.
    I have several copies of Jump too, I just checked the eight of them (from 1985 to 2010), and I found no color ad (such as the one usually on page 2) behind single manga color page. The last two pages are ads (after the TOC).

    Do you have a picture of such an ad (in context)? Maybe we just misunderstand.

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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    The 8 week rule is not a wild assumption, but something that was actually said on 2ch by insiders.
    Here are a list of "Confirmed Facts" about the ToC compiled by the folks on 2ch:
    http://http://wiki.livedoor.jp/utikiri/

    Quote Quote:

    【確定】
    作品生存はアンケートでの相対評価で決定される
    台割り(掲載順)は8週毎にアンケート結果+αから決定される
    +αは商業的思惑や漫画家のスケジュールとかいろいろ
    ただし掲載漫画のページ数が変わる場合や編集の推し等で、
    印刷直前まで掲載順の入れ替えが行われる可能性がある(いわゆるシャッフル)
    その場合1・2号先まで待つと元の位置に戻ったりする
    新連載の掲載順は8週目までは一応決まっているが、アンケがイマイチの場合8週前(補正中)でも難なく入れ替えがきく
    それゆえ新連載でも6話あたりから掲載順の入れ替えはあり得る。
    つまり補正中でも掲載順が極端に低下した場合は、アンケの結果が悪い可能性を暗示している
    編集部の狙いはあくまで小中学生
    同人女の票は微々たるもの(人気投票は凄いため、恐らく小中学生の票より軽視されてると思われる)
    通常新連載の打ち切りは3週掲載された付近で決定される
    円満終了時の場合は最終話までに5~8週分の余裕がある
    アンケート集計はその週の中からランダムに1000通選ばれる、アンケ締め切りは金曜日
    一枚につき3票で3000票がカウントされる
    漫画の原稿は普通、掲載の2週間前までには描き上がる
    印刷所に出す締切が金曜日あたり、印刷は翌週の火曜にあがる
    女性読者は増えたが普通に読んでる子供読者の方が多い
    赤丸で巻頭やCCに載るのは連載経験者(打ち切り後心機一転して書く場合が多い)
    最終回近くでもアンケート結果が上がれば、次の連載は早くもらえる(ただし掲載順は上がらない)
    つまり最終回(打ち切り)近くにアンケートを出すのは決して無駄ではない
    "Ask... And you might receive..."
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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ruggia's Avatar
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Quote:
    最終回近くでもアンケート結果が上がれば、次の連載は早くもらえる(ただし掲載順は上がらない)
    つまり最終回(打ち切り)近くにアンケートを出すのは決して無駄ではない

    Even if it's the last chapter, if the survey results go up, the next serialization will be granted quickly. (However, positioning won't change )
    Hence, it's definitely not pointless to send out questionnaire toward the end of the series(axed)
    This part is interesting, cause I never thought about it.
    So maybe that's why Kano managed to come back so often.
    Last edited by ruggia; July 16, 2011 at 06:11 AM.
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Finestela View Post
    The 8 week rule is not a wild assumption, but something that was actually said on 2ch by insiders.
    Here are a list of "Confirmed Facts" about the ToC compiled by the folks on 2ch:
    With a good translation of the whole thing, it would be easier to answer you.

    But is Eiichiro Oda not an insider enough for you guys?

    The voting system is described in Bakuman. Where has the TOC system been described by a confirmed insider (I mean: someone with a name)?

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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by UHU View Post
    With a good translation of the whole thing, it would be easier to answer you.

    But is Eiichiro Oda not an insider enough for you guys?

    The voting system is described in Bakuman. Where has the TOC system been described by a confirmed insider (I mean: someone with a name)?
    1. It's not the duty of everyone else in this thread to spend their time "proving" to you what are already known. It is your own responsibility to familiarize yourself with relevant facts before engaging in more in-depth discussions regarding the ToC.
    2. What exactly did Oda say that you kept on bringing up? As far as I know, authors themselves are prohibited to talk about the detailed inner works of the editor's department, on the record.
    3. The voting system is described in Bakuman, but Bakuman NEVER said anything about how rankings translates to ToC.
    "Ask... And you might receive..."
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  20. #795
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    Re: Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Finestela View Post
    2. What exactly did Oda say that you kept on bringing up? As far as I know, authors themselves are prohibited to talk about the detailed inner works of the editor's department, on the record.
    Here is what he said (already mentioned here):
    Quote Originally Posted by One Piece 47
    D: Oda-sensei!! My brother says that the order of the manga in Jump is decided by popularity. Is that true? (by Yasumo)

    O: That's a fitting suspicion for a Jump reader. Since I get these fairly often, allow me to answer. To be precise, not quite. The order is decided every week by the Jump sub-chief editor. But it's true that the most popular series are placed in the front of the magazine. Also, sometimes he decides, we're pushing THIS one this week! I guess you could say it's the "order you could enjoy the magazine in". But of course, the only TRULY correct answer is to read it in the order YOU want.
    I will avoid saying that it's your responsibility to read a discussion before entering it, because such words are unpleasant.

    Quote Quote:
    3. The voting system is described in Bakuman, but Bakuman NEVER said anything about how rankings translates to ToC.
    Exactly. That was my answer to Kaiten. So we don't have any real source on how the TOC is made, Oda excepted.
    Last edited by UHU; July 16, 2011 at 06:53 AM.

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