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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Sasuke

    60 41.10%
  • Jiraiya

    86 58.90%
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Thread: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

  1. #166
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunlim
    I wouldn't say waste chakra since we don't know how much chakra would be used. It's like saying that Sasuke is wasting chakra using genjutsu against them. And Jiraiya have shown to be able to literally use another jutsu while moving during the summoning process so I wouldn't say that he is breaking concentration.

    Well you have to remember that Genjutsu is broken by disrupting the chakra of the victim. The bigger the chakra reserve, the more it'll take to disrupt it's chakra. Before you imply it takes more chakra to put a larger object into Genjutsu, remember that Sasuke took control of the largest boss summon in the series WHILE he had no chakra left, so it's child's play for him.

    As for breaking concentration, he has shown the ability to move his feet. I don't think for a second you're gonna name any offensive techniques in his repertoire he can do without his hands besides maybe his hair jutsu and that one little barrier he made (that doesn't block attacks mind you). Jiraiya's as good as dead on top of his summon thanks to Amaterasu or Chidori Eisou.


    Quote Originally Posted by jdw
    Madara said it was a small, weak genjutsu, so I went with that.

    He was also referring to one Genjutsu in particular: Tsukiyomi. You didn't differentiate. You said:


    Quote Originally Posted by jdw
    Sasuke's Genjutsu is weak and Jiraiya knows how to escape Genjutsu

    Based off of that one specific incident, despite Sasuke displaying multiple feats of Genjtusu prowess? One-shotting B and C, paralyzing Orochimaru, reversing his body snatch jutsu, and controlling Manda? These incidents make his Genjutsu weak? Also, let's not assume Madara saw the fights between Sasuke and Bee, C, or Orochimaru. His claim was based on one incident alone.

  2. #167
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Ninjabot, you would be right except for the fact that you are wrong:

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    I am not convinced that Sasuke's MS arsenal is able to seal this for him:
    1. Susanoo could likely be opened up by Sage Mode Oodama Rasengan.
    2. Amaterasu can be avoided by maintaining a decent distance.
    3. Sasuke's genjutsu is weak and Jiraiya knows how to break out of genjutsu.

    I doubt Sasuke's chidori could outdo Jiraiya's rasengan in a clash (it is possible that it ends as a tie if the two clash, but I'd like to think Jiraiya's ordinary rasengan tops Naruto's, but you never know).

    All in all, I have not voted yet. I think it is a close match though.
    I thought it would be clear I am talking about MS because I said so then addressed each in a numbered list.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

  3. #168
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member EMS's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    The thing is that jiraya is strong but was already pass by his student naruto,Naruto could control Senjutsu even better than his sensei and now naruto can control the kyuubi power(the next generation pass the previous generation) and sasuke is in the same situacion each time that sasuke fight someone since itachi's fight,sasuke become even stronger than before that remind me of saiyans.lol but if sasuke fight jiraya with his next EMS, sasuke got the upperhand in this fight.
    jiraya is dead and sasuke is alive,sasuke keep becoming stronger in the manga while jiraya will stay in the same level of power because he was kill that is another point for sasuke..

  4. #169
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    @ninjabot: Chidori Eisou, while dangeous, does not have exceptional range. Sasuke might be better off with senbon if Jiraiya is the target and he is atop Bunta, Hiro, or Ken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Databook III
    Chidori* Senbon** (千鳥千本, Chidori Senbon)
    Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short to mid-range (0-10m)

    Chidori* Sharp Spear (千鳥鋭槍, Chidori Eisou)
    Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
    Manga places Eisou at about 5 meters. Senbon should be able to go a little more than that at least.

    As for all this Amaterasu sniping at a distance. False. Databook puts it as close range, so it isn't like he can snipe whatever his eyes can see.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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  6. #170
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    At that time, Sasuke had not used amaterasu yet (at least we were not even given an indication that he did against Bee, and the Amaterasu against Madara was Itachi's), and it is also unlikely it was the first time Sasuke used Tsukuyomi. He didn't leave the person on fire, he had not unlocked Susanoo yet, and there are only 3 Mangekyou techniques, and he was talking about "the mind" having been left open by fright.

    As for the field, I always imagined it was just some big random piece of land. If it is like the chuunin tournament, it creates a one-sided advantage for Doton all the way through (the ground is dirt, it appears). Unless they are all fighting in a place made from materials that cannot be elementally manipulated by shinobi, I dunno.

    ---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------



    Any jutsu can leave someone open to a counter, but life has to go on. You have to fight, right? Also, If Danzou's wind aided attack can make it through, I have to be lieve that a Sage Mode Oodama Rasengan can as well, because Danzou's jutsu didn't seem all that powerful, even with the aid of the baku.

    As for the range of Amaterasu, it is a close range jutsu, so distance nullifies it:



    Also, what is the standard for knowledge in the tournament? Things that are generally known, right? It seems that by now in the manga timeline, MS is generally known, much like it is known that Jiraiya is a summoner of toads, etc. More thing became known to the shinobi world in the time since Jiraiya encountered Itachi. If we take current world knowledge post Kage summit, MS techniques are basically known across the shinobi and samurai world.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------



    Madara said it was a small, weak genjutsu, so I went with that.
    I did forget the Kumo fodder event, but it still does not change the fact that Sasuke has been able to use his MS attacks without hindering his ability to perform battle:
    Sasuke, after using Amaterasu, was able to quickly react to Ee's attack and wrap his Susanoo with the black flames.
    Here, he was capable of reacting to Danzou's sneak attack after an Amaterasu.
    Here, Sasuke casts Tsukuyomi dashes in for a backstab.
    Here, Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi while attacking simultaneously.
    Sasuke getting nailed by Bee probably has more to do with him taking his guard down (as Bee faceplants into ground) than any ill-effects MS techs may have.

    As for Amaterasu range, the databook is probably wrong here. I'm too lazy to fetch the links, but just look at anytime Amaterasu is used. The distance have all been pretty good. Especially the one Sasuke used against Bee and the one Itachi used on Sasuke/forest. Given Sasuke's speed and the way he always puts pressure on his opponents, I don't see Jiraiya creating that much distance between them.

    Madara's quote about Sasuke's genjutsu being weak could have been taken out of context as they were referencing Itachi's Tsukuyomi earlier. Plus, being weak by Madara's standards can mean a whole different thing. Regardless, Sasuke's genjutsu have succeeded on Bee (though Hachibi freed him), Orochimaru, Shi, and Danzou. There is no reason to suspect Jiraiya being more capable of any of them against genjutsu, especially the latter 3 who either possessed the sharingan or were very proficient genjutsu users.
    Last edited by chilibun; June 25, 2011 at 12:19 PM.

  7. #171
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    It is easy to call the databook wrong and then depend on other people to either take your word for it or do your homework. Madara said Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was a small, weak genjutsu, but that it was effective because of the timing/proper use. What more context do we need really? The jutsu was weak but Sasuke still earned praise for using it wisely.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

  8. #172
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw
    Manga places Eisou at about 5 meters. Senbon should be able to go a little more than that at least.
    5 meters is not a short distance by any means, and Senbon doesn't have the stopping power that Eisou does, hence Eisou. By paralyzing his summon he can't flee the Chidori Eisou, and God Realm has shown us the ease at which someone that doesn't even have a Sharingan can dodge Bunta's melee strikes. Hell, he woudn't even need to get up to his shoulder to decapitate him. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v40/c367/5.html


    Quote Originally Posted by jdw
    As for all this Amaterasu sniping at a distance. False. Databook puts it as close range, so it isn't like he can snipe whatever his eyes can see.

    No it's not, it's just one of the many instances where the databook contradicts what we've seen in the manga. I mean, if you can prove Sasuke loses sight of his target when they're farther than a few feet away from him I might accept range as a setback to Amaterasu. Until then we've got instances where Itachi's Amaterasu misses Sasuke and flies all the way across the rooftop of the Uchiha hideout and then futher out to the woods around the area.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c389/15.html Bottom right scan shows how big the hideout is.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c390/5.html http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c390/4.html

    These scans show you how far, and how fast Amaterasu flew. Now ask yourself: is Amaterasu short range? How "close range" were those trees?

    As for the Genjutsu comment, I thought you were using the weak Tsukiyomi as proof that the other Genjutsu wouldn't one-shot Jiraiya.

  9. #173
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Even if the flame moves on beyond a short distance, it could reduce the accuracy/sniping effect. It is like if someone can accurately throw a ball 100 feet, it may just roll along inaccurately after that due to the force, etc. Amaterasu is a close range jutsu IMO.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

  10. #174
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    It is easy to call the databook wrong and then depend on other people to either take your word for it or do your homework. Madara said Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was a small, weak genjutsu, but that it was effective because of the timing/proper use. What more context do we need really? The jutsu was weak but Sasuke still earned praise for using it wisely.
    Do my homework? I didn't realize I'm obligated to spoon feed you information. All you have to do is look at the manga yourself, specifically the Sasuke's Amaterasu usage against Bee and Itachi's against Sasuke/forest. The databook has tons of inconsistencies with the manga. Manga evidence overrules anything the databook says. And context is always important. Referencing Sasuke's Tsukuyomi being weak to Itachi is not the same as calling it weak in general. Also, Madara calling it weak is completely arbitrary as we have no idea what his standards are. Imagine Raikage calling Gai slow. He'd still be fast enough to blitz like 90% of the other shinobi's. Fact still remains that Sasuke has succeeded in putting numerous shinobis under genjutsu and some of which are more proficient at genjutsu than Jiraiya. There is no evidence he can fare better.

  11. #175
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw
    Even if the flame moves on beyond a short distance, it could reduce the accuracy/sniping effect. It is like if someone can accurately throw a ball 100 feet, it may just roll along inaccurately after that due to the force, etc. Amaterasu is a close range jutsu IMO.

    Well, fortunately for Sasuke Bunta, Ken, and Hiro are all big enough that he needn't "snipe" anyone. Any lapse in accuracy is more than made up by the fact that his target is more than 100 times the size of the targets he usually attempts to hit, and the fact that he can "trace" the target by simply following them with his eyes. This is all assuming Sasuke isn't already countering a dodged weapon from a giant summon or already paralyzing one with Genjutsu.

  12. #176
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Do my homework? I didn't realize I'm obligated to spoon feed you information. All you have to do is look at the manga yourself, specifically the Sasuke's Amaterasu usage against Bee and Itachi's against Sasuke/forest. The databook has tons of inconsistencies with the manga. Manga evidence overrules anything the databook says. And context is always important. Referencing Sasuke's Tsukuyomi being weak to Itachi is not the same as calling it weak in general. Also, Madara calling it weak is completely arbitrary as we have no idea what his standards are. Imagine Raikage calling Gai slow. He'd still be fast enough to blitz like 90% of the other shinobi's. Fact still remains that Sasuke has succeeded in putting numerous shinobis under genjutsu and some of which are more proficient at genjutsu than Jiraiya. There is no evidence he can fare better.
    You are not obligated to spoon feed me anything, but you cannot expect me to eat whatever BS you serve up on the table either

    You have to make your own case like everyone else. You are not a "special or unique snowflake."

    ---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Well, fortunately for Sasuke Bunta, Ken, and Hiro are all big enough that he needn't "snipe" anyone. Any lapse in accuracy is more than made up by the fact that his target is more than 100 times the size of the targets he usually attempts to hit, and the fact that he can "trace" the target by simply following them with his eyes. This is all assuming Sasuke isn't already countering a dodged weapon from a giant summon or already paralyzing one with Genjutsu.
    I will concede that they are easy target, so they are likely to burn with Amaterasu at respectable distances, but if they are far it is unlikely to land, imo. But imo, Amaterasu sniping Jiraiya while he is atop of any of them is a non-starter.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

  13. #177
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Nicholas.Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    It is easy to call the databook wrong and then depend on other people to either take your word for it or do your homework. Madara said Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was a small, weak genjutsu, but that it was effective because of the timing/proper use. What more context do we need really? The jutsu was weak but Sasuke still earned praise for using it wisely.
    In your original post, you said that you don't think his MS genjutsu could get the job done on J-Man because it's weak. I thought you were talking about the Tsukuyomi that Danzo broke and ridiculed Sasuke over. Turns out you're talking about a situational genjutsu that was never intended to be strong in the first place.

    Ever since Sasuke has gained MS it seems that people want to call every genjutsu he has used since then Tsukuyomi. I really don't think that's the case. In fact, I don't think that the genjutsu he used to defeat Danzo was Tsukuyomi at all. Why would he cast a "chakra-coster" like Tsukuyomi, if the genjutsu was intended to be so weak that it would go unnoticed? That type of genjutsu actually leans towards Sasuke's advantage (IMHO).

    In the end Sasuke is more proficient at base Sharingan genjutsu than he is at Tsukuyomi.

  14. #178
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    You are not obligated to spoon feed me anything, but you cannot expect me to eat whatever BS you serve up on the table either

    You have to make your own case like everyone else. You are not a "special or unique snowflake."
    Exactly how am I feeding you bullshit? Did I note that all Amaterasu usages in the manga had not been "close" range, specifically the one Sasuke used against Bee and the one Itachi used on Sasuke. If you really couldn't flip to the pages yourself, you could have just asked me to provide the links. Stop acting like such a condescending douche.

  15. #179
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Well, just saying the DB is wrong and walking away isn't very helpful, IMO.

    Sorry if you feel like I am being condescending, but it's annoying to be told my argument is wrong by someone unwilling to produce proof, my bad.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

  16. #180
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member EMS's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    sasuke's tsutuyomi isn't nothing close to itachi and for someone as jiraya that is a sannin and had unbeliavable experient in battlefield, he will break sasuke's genjutsu and even if jiraya isn't good a genjutsu that doesn't mean that he can't protect and break genjutsu users and about amaterasu, you just have to be carefull to don't touch it or avoided it as raikage did with sasuke, a shinobi with experient will know that he has to just avoid that jutsu and keep his distant when sasuke used amaterasu. if someone tell me that raikage got hit by amaterasu that isn't the case,raikage knew that he was going to loose his arm when he was going to hit sasuke but he didn't care to loose an arm to obtained his goal but a the end he lost his arm for nothing..sasuke will win the fight eventually but i can't believe that some of you guys, treat jiraya as nothing.

    p.s these techniques are Tsukuyomi,Kagutsuchi,Izanagi,Amaterasu,Tensha Fuuin • Amaterasu are Range: Close (0m ~ 5m) and the only ones far than 5m are Susanoo,Kamui Range: Close (0m ~ 5m), Mid (5m ~ 10m), Far (10m+)
    Last edited by EMS; June 25, 2011 at 01:52 PM.

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