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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
I wouldn't say that databook contradicts what we've seen in the manga, though I would say that with distance the flames gain more way to come into contact with a target. If we consider Itachi going all out with his Amaterasu on Sasuke <because it will never be certain, but still: he caught him with Amaterasu to burn Sasuke's ass> then here it shows that with distance flames are more than welcome to be evaded by someone at least as fast as Sasuke <I mean: till some point but Jiraiya can always do sth in that time, imo>:Originally Posted by ninjabot
Last edited by juUnior; June 25, 2011 at 02:03 PM.
Last edited by chilibun; June 25, 2011 at 02:16 PM.
So...Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi when he faced Orochimaru...he was able to use Genjutsu to take over Orochimaru's realm, right? Orochimaru is also a Sannin. According to the Databook, he's better with Genjutsu than Jiraiya. Jiraiya admits that he's not good with Genjutsu. Danzou has more experience than Jiraiya, hell he was on the same team as Jiraiya's teacher! Yet he didn't notice at the end that he was under Genjutsu. Experience isn't the be all to end all, or else Sasuke would've been taken care of a long time ago.
Does that distance look less than 5m to anyone?
I guess we could go through the Databook and just look for any and all inconsistencies, but that'd be really time-consuming and I can't really believe Jiraiya is going to win this fight in the first place (going by votes I mean). I think we're just doing this to debate.
Also, the thing about Itachi vs. Sasuke...we know that Itachi was holding back on Sasuke; he didn't actually want to kill him. It's not hard to believe that he wasn't trying to actually burn Sasuke to a crisp.
Last edited by UchihaHunter; June 25, 2011 at 02:12 PM.
Likewise, in the incidents you and I make reference to, only against C has his genjutsu worked flawlessly on.
Against Bee, Sasuke was indeed able to place genjutsu upon him temporarily, but Bee quickly recovered from it.
Danzou too was placed under genjutsu, but he quickly recognized and broke the genjutsu. In his case, he lost because he discounted a weak genjutsu that he could break free from and failed to realize that his reliance on visually checking Izanagi's duration would still make him prone to such a technique. Had he fought smarter and periodically checked and disrupted his chakra flow, the result of that battle might have been different.
In Orochimaru's case, Sasuke cast a genjutsu, but Orochimaru shrugged it off and could keep moving regardless. It's also worth mentioning that genjutsu isn't the end all you're making it out to be, given that the manga implies he was capable of cancelling even Itachi's if he had been given the time to do so.
So to sum up, Sasuke only successfully took out C with genjutsu. Contrastingly, Bee, Orochimaru, and Danzou demonstrated that it took little effort to break Sasuke's genjutsu, with Danzou losing his battle not because of an inability to escape the genjutsu, but due to him underestimating Sasuke's skill and thus not noticing subsequent genjutsu.
Jiraiya on the other hand, knows exactly how to counter genjutsu, like his fellow sannin Orochimaru, and given his skill at combat strategy, he likely won't be prone to making the same mistakes that Danzo makes. Moreover, he can use genjutsu of his own, which happens to be sound based genjutsu, rather than the Sharingan's sight based genjutsu. And according to Shikamaru, whom one would believe is knowledgeable about combat and jutsu, sound based genjutsu is the most troublesome to deal with. So in this case, I would almost bet that the Ma and Pa sound genjutsu is more power than Sasuke's, though the Sharingan should still be able to break through it.
So, while I think Sasuke would eventually win in a fight against Jiraiya, by no means do I think he could one hit KO Jiraiya by trapping him with a genjutsu first. Ultimately, I think Sasuke's victory depends upon careful use of Amaterasu and more importantly Susanoo. He has powerful techniques, but none of them should be able to one shot Jiraiya.
I've already given on how genjutsu won't be terribly effective on Jiraiya. Amaterasu might be effective, but Jiraiya can seal Amaterasu's flames (maybe not while in motion). Likewise, in sage mode and sage mode rasengans, he can push Sasuke to use Susanoo and deplete chakra. Now, he doesn't have a natural defense against Amaterasu's flames or Susanoo's arrows, but multiple summons should keep Sasuke busy and at least delay the inevitable. Shadow mimic and shadow manipulation used wisely would also serve as decoys and buy Jiraiya more time. Sage art goemon should also be able to counter all of Sasuke's fire release techniques except for Amaterasu since it combines both fire, air, and oil. Needle Jizo and Wild Lion's mane should also prove useful in diverting the path of attacks so that they don't hit critical areas. Besides, the great thing about hair is, if it's on fire, Jiraiya can simply cut it with a kunai.
tl:dr Sasuke's genjutsu is likely not strong enough to be a real problem for Jiraiya. Likewise, Jiraiya possesses jutsu to counter / reduce the damage of most of Sasuke's jutsu, although Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Lightening style chakra should give Sasuke the overall edge.
He had the Bijuu there to break him out...I presume you're assuming that Jiraiya will have Ma and Pa there to help him? We already saw the time that it takes for him to bring them out, and considering the Sharingan can see chakra, I don't see how Sasuke wouldn't perceive a barrier...furthermore, there's nowhere for Jiraiya to hide, and Amaterasu/Susanoo are pretty rough to defend against. I honestly don't even see Jiraiya getting into Sage Mode. As for any other summons, if Sasuke can take control of Manda with Genjutsu (and we know that Manda is pretty damn tall, so it didn't seem as if distance was much of an issue), I think he can take control of Bunta, etc.Quote:
Danzou had Sharingan as well as knowledge of MS techniques. He didn't feel the need to be extra cautious, and he didn't want to waste his chakra disrupting the flow, etc., since his Izanagi wasn't perfect. Hindsight is 20/20; if Danzou's last attack had worked, we would've been saying Sasuke sucked for using Amaterasu and such so much early on. The point on not realizing that he didn't know Izanagi's duration is SUPER valid though; that was embarrassing for someone that fought alongside Hiruzen and Tobirama.Quote:
Orochimaru is implied (and indeed stated by the databook stats) to be the best of the Sannin in Genjutsu, and even he didn't exactly break out of it. Wasn't it the Sharingan's genjutsu that allowed him to overcome Orochimaru's technique? Not to mention, we also saw his Sharingan genjutsu work on someone that had trained specifically against it in Deidara, and despite Deidara being able to cancel it, it didn't prevent him from getting punched in the face. Sasuke, with the proper chakra levels, could easily catch Jiraiya in a genjutsu long enough to hit him with a Chidori or Amaterasu. It really doesn't take that long. Do you think that Orochimaru and these other genjutsu specialists don't know how to get out of genjutsu? At some point, it gets overly difficult to escape from genjutsu. Even without MS, Itachi's finger genjutsu stopped Naruto, who knew how to counter it (not to equate Naruto with Jiraiya). Kurenai bit her lip and escaped Itachi's counter, but she still got sent flying. Genjutsu (and forcing you to counter it) gives the user an opening to use. For someone that excels in ninjutsu like Sasuke, that opening can certainly mean death.Quote:
Already stated why these guys were able to counter, but remember that a genjutsu that you don't know you're under is pretty powerful (again, we can look at Danzou and Mifune). All it really takes is a subtle genjutsu to give you an opening, when you have Chidori and MS techs.Quote:
The thing is though, outside of Itachi's hax power with genjutsu, the power of a genjutsu isn't really the point of the genjutsu. If I can manipulate you into making moves advantageous to me, and I have killer techniques, I don't need Itachi's godly genjutsu. And again, he has to get into Sage Mode to use his OP genjutsu in the first place, which I still haven't seen viable reasoning to believe he could do so. Again, even though Orochimaru could counter genjutsu, the opening it leaves is what led to him losing a hand to Itachi, and partially why Sasuke could take him over.Quote:
I agree that he's not going to OHKO Jiraiya...most shinobi can't. I do believe that Kirin could OHKO him though.Quote:
He still has to get into Sage Mode, and if his hair is weak enough to be cut by a kunai, I would think Amaterasu would tear through it more quickly. If he can get into Sage Mode, the fight becomes considerably more difficult, with more strength, more powerful techniques, and genjutsu (even though that genjutsu apparently takes a while as well)...however, in a fight with someone with Sasuke's speed and technique speed, I can't see Jiraiya winning.Quote:
All of Sasuke's battle have boiled down to the details of Amaterasu. I'm beginning to think that if Pakkun had Amaterasu he'd be declared instant winner by the majority of you. It's Sasuke vs. Jiraiya. Not Amaterasu vs. Jiraiya. Has anyone entertained the notion of Sasuke winning this any other way? Why is he so revered then? If all a character has to do is blink and someone's dead, where the appeal in that character then?
Originally Posted by blackjack62
Shrugged it off? It stopped him in his tracks. He even states that it was "just like that time". Then, if that paralysis Genjutsu wasn't impressive enough simply look at how his Magen Kyouten reversed his body stealing jutsu. It's not Genjutsu but it works the same way. On top of that Orochimaru is better at Genjutsu than Jiraiya and he was destroyed by it.
The rest of your post was addressed perfectly by UchihaHunter, but I feel like I need to ask you: even if all your claims were true, why do you think that Jiraiya can defend against Sasuke's Genjutsu based on how they did against other ninja? All the ninja he's used Genjutsu against have been shown to have greater Genjutsu expertise than Jiraiya so even if Sasuke flatout failed against them (which he didn't) there's no reason whatsoever to assume Jiraiya could escape them.
I mean Jiraiya has told us he knows how to escape Genjutsu. That's it. We never saw it happen. Sakura can use Shunshin. Am I to assume that her Shunshin is comperable to Raikage's? Ofcourse not, because she hasn't shown us any reason to assume such a thing.
So let's stop assuming that Jiraiya can succeed against Genjutsu where more capable ninja have not.
Originally Posted by DementedKirby
Amaterasu actually isn't the only thing people have been bringing up. Heck, the past 3 or 4 posts were almost exclusively about Genjutsu, lol. Infact in my very first post in here it was a breakdown of multiple jutsu that countered multiple jutsu/strategies from Jiraiya. From flying above his swamp to taking control over Jiraiya's summons. Amaterasu is definately not his only option here.
Last edited by ninjabot; June 25, 2011 at 03:33 PM.
Last edited by xXan; June 25, 2011 at 04:06 PM.
I also question the use of "revered" here...I like Sasuke, I don't rever him. Reverence it what I see whenever Naruto or Minato comes up. Sasuke's best fights have all been extremely tough, and he's lucky (yes, lucky) to have survived them.
vs. Orochimaru - If he can't turn Oro's tech on himself, then he loses, even to a weakened (damn near on his death bed, literally) Orochimaru
vs. Deidara - If he doesn't teleport within Manda, he gets killed by that bomb, no question
vs. Itachi - Itachi let him win. Enough said
vs. Bee - If Bee didn't want to escape the village, he loses. Considering Bee's reaction times we've seen in the flashbacks, I believe Bee would dodge Amaterasu and just wtfpwn Sasuke again...although, we hadn't seen Susanoo at this point, IIRC
vs. Raikage - If Gaara doesn't interfere, I still think they effectively kill each other, and if he couldn't manipulate Amaterasu's flames, he would've died
vs. Mizukage - No Zetsu = dead Sasuke (even though he did come into the fight weakened)
vs. Danzou - Danzou didn't have Shisui's eye in the beginning, and he still almost died...I think it's reasonable that Sasuke loses if Shisui's eye is active from the start
So I don't think we're going around thinking that he's invincible, etc., it's just that Jiraiya's skill set doesn't match up well against Sasuke's. Amaterasu, Susanoo, and genjutsu mastery (depending on what you think about his fight with Itachi, you can see that he saw through Itachi's genjutsu and overcame Tsukuyomi) make it very difficult for Jiraiya to win this fight.
And yes, if Pakkun had MS, Chidori techs, and the speed Sasuke has, I would think Pakkun would beat Jiraiya, XD
Sasuke's easily my favorite ninja of the series, but even I can admit he gets his ass kicked WAY too often. That's why it's so frustrating to hear people say he's "broken" or "hax". No one who's as broken as people say he is would get humbled as often as he does.
We see on a regular basis his most hax jutsu overcome by ninja, so it's not impossible. It just takes a specific moveset or physical aptitude to do so. Both of which Jiraiya isn't blessed with outside of Sage Mode. Them's the breaks.
Dodging an attack is different from dodging a STRAIGHT attack.. why.? well, it was so freaking obvious.. dodging an attack means he can dodge ANY attack, while dodging a staight attack means he can just dodge a linear/straight attack.. see the diference..?
overpowering sasuke to make him unbeatable is really ridiculous..
---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ----------
No, you're the one who overriding sasuke's words, he said that he can dodge a STRAIGHT ATTACK BECAUSE ON HIS SHARINGAN, and not he can dodge an attack (means any attack) because of his sharingan.. see the difference..?
Sasuke can deal with Bee's cloak form because his attacks ARE linear. Stop assuming he can dash around in high speed while being shifty and unpredictable. Ee is faster and more agile than Bee is and Sasuke had no problem keeping up with him, until V2. You have absolutely no argument unless you can show Sasuke failing to keep up with Bee's speed.
Last edited by chilibun; June 25, 2011 at 08:44 PM.
---------- Post added at 09:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------
And when did sasuke was able to keep up on A's speed.? it was when he was able to hit A with his chidori.? Oh, come on.. sharingan has the power to read a straight attack, and raikage never run nor move a meter to attack sasuke with his elbow.. it was sasuke who attack raikage and it was just raikage move one step to hit sasuke with his elbow.. so is that what you mean about sasuke was able to keep up on raikage's speed..?
Sasuke was able to avoid Kirabi's spinning attack, even though Kirabi was not moving in a straight line, so he isn't limited to only straight movement. Not to mention only following straight movement wouldn't allow Sasuke to fight against Multiple opponents,something we have seen him do with ease.
And the manga outright shows that Amaterasu can be used at long range.
Unless Raikage stands in a running position, it certainly looks like Sasuke and Raikage dashed into each other. Sasuke was then able to avoid Raikage's elbow and hit him with the Chidori. Unless you have better proof of Sasuke failing to keep up with the Raikage, he was certainly able to do so. Again, LINK PLZ!