Jiraiya vs Sasuke

[Dapreachor]

every fight sasuke is involved in leads to lolz ms spam hur hur sasuke wins kkthxbai. I guess Jiraiya being able to seal amaretsu doesnt mean anything then. If jiraiya knows about the rinningan then im sure coming from konoha he would know about the sharingan's capabilities.

If he manages to get into sagemode then the fusion should prevent him being affected by genjutsu, and if the frog song works on the most noble dojutsu i'm pretty sure it will work on a sharingan. I voted on the j man just because once he is in sage mode he is: faster, stronger, smarter, more experienced, has better ninjutsu, and taijutsu.

is it just me or didn't pain say that if Jiraiya knew the secret of the 6 paths he would probably lose. But i'm sure a lot of fans here would think sasuke could MS spam his way to negato despite chibaku tensei and ghost realm.

[BigBadDogg]

I agree with you. It seems no matter the caliber of the opponent Saskue will win. To me in the Danzou fight he would have lost if Madara and Karin weren't there. (even if he had full chakra)

I just read over some of Jiraiya's fights. It seems that people are forgetting his jutsus and intelligence. He could start out by using the mud swamp jutsu to capture sasuke quite easily and use a combo of oil and fire with Bunta. (Saskue's Susano can not block all attacks like Itachi's cause he doesn't have the special items)

J man could use his frog silhouette move and take control of saskue and have him off himself.

I saw somewhere that Saskue could put bunta under gen but doesn't saskue have to look into his eye to do that. Bunta is like 50 feet tall. Even if he does J-Man could summon the other toads and create enough time to go into sage mode.

[Shaunlim]

Problem is JMan is not going to have a clone around. He has no idea Amaterasu is going to be used. If we go with how he usualy fights when he plans to go all out(and we should use this type of comparison) he is going to summon a frog and try to enter sage mode by keeping his distance and defeneding with the frog. This is when Amaterasu ends up in his face. So yeah the problem is he will not use a clone as he has no idea he is going to need one.

PS. i don't even remember him using clones. When has he used clones?

@Shaunlim

Even if he makes 1 clone Sasuke is going to know who is the real one as JMan is going to create it right in front of Sasuke. You need large numbers of them to make it imposible to know who is who. Sarutobi created 2 clones in his fight and the attacks where always going his way.

PS. When has he used clones i realy don't remember lol. Can you provide a link pls?

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...8/page013.html
Not necessarily true since he can move about before using to make it more confusing and etc. Even Kakashi who was chakraless made a bunch of KBs so I'm inclined to think that Jiraiya with his capacity can safely make quite a few at once. Raikage suspected an attack when Sasuke turned on his MS, so Jiraiya can very well prepare a defense of sorts as well via KBs. It's a possibility. Heck, if he gets close enough, he can even hide in Sasuke's Shadow.

It was good enough to put Bee down and get a killing blow(well not exacly) on Danzo 2x times. The first time Danzou was able to counter it with a seal placed before the genjutsu (dumb luck). Bee countered it with his biju. JMan has nothing of those 2 things.

Bee wasn't put down. He was stunned for a moment and fell from his on momentum while Danzou was never really affected by Tsukiyomi. If anything at all, he broke free from the first one without even trying while the subtle use of the second one is what led to his downfall.

Swamp sure but the time it takes for the swamp to be summoned some arrows are already going to go JMan's way and then followed by a amaterasu. keep in mind that Kakashi with his sharingan and was unable to use any jutsus or even move to defend vs that arrow. He was forced to use a instant cast Kamui.

The swamp have shown to be summoned in an instant. The only thing that can be considered as taking time would be the handseals which Jiraiya have shown to complete quite fast. The arrows were never spammed before so likely there's only going to be 1 since it takes time to reload the arrow as well. That being said, Jiraiya can potentially use his hair to change to trajectory like how a tree was used by Danzou. Honestly if a tree can grow in time, I see Jiraiya at least being able to do something.

That would be a BFR win for Sasuke. Any frogs left behind are going to get killed in a split second.

Naruto was reverse summoned to the mountain and when the summoning was canceled, Naruto returned. So it won't be a BFR win for Sasuke.

[M3J]

every fight sasuke is involved in leads to lolz ms spam hur hur sasuke wins kkthxbai. I guess Jiraiya being able to seal amaretsu doesnt mean anything then. If jiraiya knows about the rinningan then im sure coming from konoha he would know about the sharingan's capabilities.

If he manages to get into sagemode then the fusion should prevent him being affected by genjutsu, and if the frog song works on the most noble dojutsu i'm pretty sure it will work on a sharingan. I voted on the j man just because once he is in sage mode he is: faster, stronger, smarter, more experienced, has better ninjutsu, and taijutsu.

is it just me or didn't pain say that if Jiraiya knew the secret of the 6 paths he would probably lose. But i'm sure a lot of fans here would think sasuke could MS spam his way to negato despite chibaku tensei and ghost realm.

He would know basic capabilities of Sharingan like ability to predict and copy moves, but not Mangekyo or Amaterasu. Jiraiya had no idea what Amaterasu was when Kakashi knew from first sight (or was that Yamato?). Even Naruto didn't know the name, very likely, and I'm sure it's something Jiraiya would have told him.

And once again, Jiraiya sealed Amaterasu when there was no enemy around. Itachi and Kisame were long gone so Jiraiya could afford the time to seal Amaterasu, and he was never hit with Amaterasu. Though, if he was, then one way to avoid "oneshot" would be to move around and make it hard for Sasuke to focus on where he shot the Amaterasu.

Frog Song will most likely work on Sasuke, doujutsu has nothing to do with it. I think Frog Song is the only sound-based genjutsu we've seen, the rest were most likely just ocular, doujutsu-related or not. However, Sasuke would probably find and strike Jiraiya before Frog Song was perfected and used. Nagato came close but because Jiraiya was hiding, he couldn't get in time.

Can Ma and Pa detect or do anything about Jiraiya's chakra? I forgot, but if they can't, then Jiraiya won't have any help apart from his own ability to break out of genjutsu, which is at the very least decent.

And once again, like I said, Jiraiya's on my top five favorites while Sasuke isn't even on my top ten. There is no such thing as biased here, it's just a weak argument for people that can't come up with a good explanation why they think what they do. :\

[UchihaHunter]

every fight sasuke is involved in leads to lolz ms spam hur hur sasuke wins kkthxbai. I guess Jiraiya being able to seal amaretsu doesnt mean anything then. If jiraiya knows about the rinningan then im sure coming from konoha he would know about the sharingan's capabilities.

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...ent-Rules-Info

Regardless of what he knows in story, I'm pretty sure the rules state that the characters don't have knowledge of their opponent. And considering that Jiraiya didn't know about Amaterasu until Itachi used it on him, I don't see why we're assuming he knows about the MS.

If he manages to get into sagemode then the fusion should prevent him being affected by genjutsu, and if the frog song works on the most noble dojutsu i'm pretty sure it will work on a sharingan. I voted on the j man just because once he is in sage mode he is: faster, stronger, smarter, more experienced, has better ninjutsu, and taijutsu.

He has to get into Sage Mode in the first place, which has been shown to take time. Also, the Rinnegan was never stated to be able to do anything about Genjutsu, while the Sharingan has explicitly been stated to perceive and counter Genjutsu. "Most noble doujutsu" or not, it's not invulnerable.

is it just me or didn't pain say that if Jiraiya knew the secret of the 6 paths he would probably lose. But i'm sure a lot of fans here would think sasuke could MS spam his way to negato despite chibaku tensei and ghost realm.

We aren't arguing Sasuke vs. Nagato, this is Sasuke vs. Jiraiya. In addition, the skill sets of Jiraiya and Sasuke are pretty different. Even Pain would have trouble dealing with Susanoo and Tsukuyomi. I'm actually not sure who would win between Sasuke and Pain though, especially since Sasuke has been shown to be quite good with analysis.

I agree with you. It seems no matter the caliber of the opponent Saskue will win. To me in the Danzou fight he would have lost if Madara and Karin weren't there. (even if he had full chakra)

The thing is that we're arguing these fights off of feats, not hype. The Sasuke that had trouble defeating a weakened Orochimaru isn't the same Sasuke that defeated Danzou and fought fairly well against the Raikage. To me, Danzou would've lost if he didn't have 10 freaking Sharingan, along with Hashirama's cells, to use a technique foreign to his body, lol. We can go back and forth here, but Sasuke beat Danzou.

I just read over some of Jiraiya's fights. It seems that people are forgetting his jutsus and intelligence. He could start out by using the mud swamp jutsu to capture sasuke quite easily and use a combo of oil and fire with Bunta. (Saskue's Susano can not block all attacks like Itachi's cause he doesn't have the special items)

Yomi Numa worked on Pain because he didn't see it coming. Yomi Numa hasn't been seen working on any ninja outside of a surprise capacity, no? And he's fighting against someone that can read his seals, see it's an Earth tech, and can counter with Chidori Nagashi or even Amaterasu, IMO. Of course, that's just my opinion, I don't think we've seen someone escape from Yomi Numa.

Bunta can be controlled by Genjutsu as well, and even if he didn't do that, why not counter size with size? Do you think Bunta can dodge an arrow from Susanoo? Also, regarding the blocking of techniques, even while incomplete it still blocked Gaara's sand, Kankurou and Temari's attacks, as well as Darui's Storm Element Laser Circus. Its defensive skills protected Sasuke from a tech that was said to be pretty much a sureshot OHKO (Raikage's Liger Bomb). Even when Danzou was able to pierce it with a combo of high-level wind techniques and the suction of a summon larger than the Susanoo, it still didn't actually hit Sasuke.

J man could use his frog silhouette move and take control of saskue and have him off himself.

Lol then why not do that against one of the Pain summons? It didn't seem like a technique he could use against high-level ninja, but of course that's also an assumption. The fact remains though that he only used that on a fodder ninja.

I saw somewhere that Saskue could put bunta under gen but doesn't saskue have to look into his eye to do that. Bunta is like 50 feet tall. Even if he does J-Man could summon the other toads and create enough time to go into sage mode.

Um...how tall do you think Manda is? Obviously size isn't an issue, and once he has Bunta under his control, he can use him to attack Jiraiya.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...8/page013.html
Not necessarily true since he can move about before using to make it more confusing and etc. Even Kakashi who was chakraless made a bunch of KBs so I'm inclined to think that Jiraiya with his capacity can safely make quite a few at once. Raikage suspected an attack when Sasuke turned on his MS, so Jiraiya can very well prepare a defense of sorts as well via KBs. It's a possibility. Heck, if he gets close enough, he can even hide in Sasuke's Shadow.

That Kakashi scene in the Zabuza arc...were those really KBs? It had Kakashi-style at the bottom, so I felt like they were just Bunshins. At any rate, yes Jiraiya can do KB, but I can't see him reacting to Amaterasu at the speed of Raikage. It's a possibility that KB could help him defend, but Sasuke can also read the seals and knows the seals for KB...he won't really be surprised.

Bee wasn't put down. He was stunned for a moment and fell from his on momentum while Danzou was never really affected by Tsukiyomi. If anything at all, he broke free from the first one without even trying while the subtle use of the second one is what led to his downfall.

Yea, that initial Tsukuyomi on Danzou was weird...I guess it was just to show us how crappy Sasuke's is compared to Itachi's, lol...at the same time though, a subtle genjutsu can be almost as effective as a hax one, as long as you don't know you're being manipulated (ask Mifune and anyone else that experienced Shisui's)

The swamp have shown to be summoned in an instant. The only thing that can be considered as taking time would be the handseals which Jiraiya have shown to complete quite fast. The arrows were never spammed before so likely there's only going to be 1 since it takes time to reload the arrow as well. That being said, Jiraiya can potentially use his hair to change to trajectory like how a tree was used by Danzou. Honestly if a tree can grow in time, I see Jiraiya at least being able to do something.

Agreed on the swamp summon, although, again, Sasuke would see Doton seals and probably prepare Raiton to counter. His seal speed definitely isn't on Itachi's level. Agreed on the arrow spam, that definitely never happened. I dunno if I can agree on the hair changing the trajectory though, a tree is pretty large and different from the hair we saw Jiraya use...again though, these are pretty fast attacks for him to have to dodge while attempting to get into Sage Mode. And he still has to avoid Tsukuyomi.

Anyway, like I said before, it's not a curbstomp battle, but it's hard for me to see Jiraiya holding off Sasuke long enough to enter Sage Mode. This isn't even considering the Chidori techs that Sasuke has, most of which aren't negligible, and he still needs a counter for Tsukuyomi, which I don't think he has if his frogs can be Genjutsu'd a la Manda. Even if he did enter Sage Mode, I still don't see his attacks getting through Susanoo, nor do I see him surviving Amaterasu or the inevitable Kirin that results from Amaterasu just burning on the battlefield.

[bhasty]

OK, because I'm tired of reading this...I'm going to attempt to use logic to explain this to you.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-4/...apter-148.html

Here we see the window. The window has a specific shape, correct? You can see the flesh around it.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-6/...apter-148.html

Here we see Jiraiya DIRECTLY refuting your claim. He states that the wall of flesh was surely torn apart by them.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-7/...apter-148.html

Here we see the hole formed by Amaterasu. It's not the same shape as the window, and we see the flames on the flesh.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-8/...apter-148.html

Here we see Jiraiya state AGAIN that the flesh was burned.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-9/...apter-148.html

Here we see the burn marks on the flesh.


Amaterasu has never been stated to have a range limitation. It was simply "it ignites whatever the user is looking at" I find it hard to believe that Sasuke wouldn't see a freaking summon. When he attacked Bee, he wasn't right up on Bee, they were running away from him and Suigetsu had been fighting him off to give them time to escape.



If he could summon Manda, place him under genjutsu, and escape within him from Deidara's explosion while only taking the damage he took, it's not a stretch to say that he could place Bunta under genjutsu, especially since Bunta isn't going to instantly take to the air and begin attacking.


Links above. You can see the differences in shapes between the window and the hole in the wall. At this point, you have to be trolling.


Not sure what you're saying, but no, Amaterasu doesn't instantly burn into nothingness whatever it ignites. It takes time to burn, yes, but it eventually consumes all. That's why the Samurai had to have their armor removed, that's why the Raikage chose to chop off his arm, and that's why Bee was in pain in the first place. Obviously, depending on what it is, it takes more or less time to completely consume it, this is only logical.


Did you just go from saying that it didn't burn the flesh at all to it "partially burned" the flesh? At any rate, the pics above already show that the shapes aren't the same; considering we saw the flames on the flesh, AND Jiraiya stated that the flesh was burned, I don't see why you're still arguing this point..

Well, if you're tired of this arguments then so am i.. But my opinion is still remain the same, that itachi's amaterasu was hit on window first and not on the toad flesh.. and amaterasu was indeed burn SOME OF THE FLESH but it was never ingulfed all the stomach flesh..

So, before the flesh was closing in to the window, itachi use his amaterasu to make a hole. and then the amaterasu burn some of the flesh..

...Sasuke told Karin to sense Bee's chakra so that the team would know where Bee was going to attack...so that Karin and the others could dodge. Notice that this was after Bee chose to attack the rest of Taka rather than Sasuke. Sasuke had already stated that he had no trouble dodging the attacks thanks to his Sharingan.

Holy molly... im pretty sure sasuke was disagreeing with you.. now do your thing... f

[chilibun]

Holy molly... im pretty sure sasuke was disagreeing with you.. now do your thing... f

Actually, Sasuke AGREES with him. I don't know what you are reading...

[UchihaHunter]

...why would Sasuke need Karin to let him specifically know where the attacks are coming from when...

A. The Sharingan can see chakra.

B. He's already stated he can perceive Bee's movements.

C. He didn't ask her to do it until Bee attacked the rest of the team.


Funny that you choose to ignore Jiraiya's exact words regarding what Itachi did, but you take part of Sasuke's words as overriding what he had just said...but have fun with that, I'm sure you're convincing someone somewhere, lol


Edit: Also, I dunno about anyone else, but I've never claimed that the flames engulfed ALL of the stomach flesh...it doesn't make sense to say so, seeing as how the rest of the stomach wasn't on fire. So...you're conceding that the flesh was burned...wtf are you even arguing at this point?

[Shaunlim]

That Kakashi scene in the Zabuza arc...were those really KBs? It had Kakashi-style at the bottom, so I felt like they were just Bunshins. At any rate, yes Jiraiya can do KB, but I can't see him reacting to Amaterasu at the speed of Raikage. It's a possibility that KB could help him defend, but Sasuke can also read the seals and knows the seals for KB...he won't really be surprised.


Yea, that initial Tsukuyomi on Danzou was weird...I guess it was just to show us how crappy Sasuke's is compared to Itachi's, lol...at the same time though, a subtle genjutsu can be almost as effective as a hax one, as long as you don't know you're being manipulated (ask Mifune and anyone else that experienced Shisui's)


Agreed on the swamp summon, although, again, Sasuke would see Doton seals and probably prepare Raiton to counter. His seal speed definitely isn't on Itachi's level. Agreed on the arrow spam, that definitely never happened. I dunno if I can agree on the hair changing the trajectory though, a tree is pretty large and different from the hair we saw Jiraya use...again though, these are pretty fast attacks for him to have to dodge while attempting to get into Sage Mode. And he still has to avoid Tsukuyomi.

Anyway, like I said before, it's not a curbstomp battle, but it's hard for me to see Jiraiya holding off Sasuke long enough to enter Sage Mode. This isn't even considering the Chidori techs that Sasuke has, most of which aren't negligible, and he still needs a counter for Tsukuyomi, which I don't think he has if his frogs can be Genjutsu'd a la Manda. Even if he did enter Sage Mode, I still don't see his attacks getting through Susanoo, nor do I see him surviving Amaterasu or the inevitable Kirin that results from Amaterasu just burning on the battlefield.

Kakashi used the KB seal so I'm pretty sure it was KBs that he used then. Sasuke doesn't have to be surprised by it, just be confuse as to who to target in a way.

I know which is why I said the subtle use is the way to win it via Tsukiyomi but I definitely do not see Jiraiya rolling in his grave from a single Tsukiyomi which haven't shown to do much damage at all.

Since Sasuke doesn't know what type of jutsu is coming, he would still have to wait for it to hit him first(in a sense not literally)to be able to successfully counter it. Well the hair have shown to grown long enough to strangle the entire giant crab so I can see it make a wall of sort and since it is supposedly harder than a tree it might just change the trajectory.

Honestly though, I see Jiraiya being able to handle those just fine since he does have the techniques to work around those stuff but I just can't see him doing it successfully too many times as Sasuke is bound to catch on sooner or later.

[UchihaHunter]

What would be the point of saying Kakashi style if it was just a regular KB though?

Also, Sasuke's got decent genjutsu even without the MS...I dunno, it's just really difficult for me to see Jiraiya winning more times than he loses. Basically, his best killing moves would be the Rasengan variants, and Sasuke's got Susanoo.

[jdw]

Kakashi is a KB user:

Shadow Clone Technique (影分身の術, Kage Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary
Users: Uzumaki Naruto, Hatake Kakashi, et al

A ninjutsu that creates a true copy of something. What makes it different from the normal "Clone Technique"* is that it creates a clone with substance, making them able to perform physical attacks. It's a high grade ninjutsu, allowing the clone to various techniques of the user. It used to be Naruto's worst skill, but nowadays it's his favourite by far. The way he uses it is also extraordinarily clever.

That shadow
It changes into yet another real body!!

[picture of Naruto attacking Zabuza from behind]
[picture of Naruto attacking Neji from the ground]
←↑By using the clone to attract the enemy's attention, the real body can appear from an unexpected place and launch an attack! This is the clever way the "Shadow Clone Technique" can be used.

*Clone Technique (分身の術, Bunshin no Jutsu)

[Shaunlim]

What would be the point of saying Kakashi style if it was just a regular KB though?

Also, Sasuke's got decent genjutsu even without the MS...I dunno, it's just really difficult for me to see Jiraiya winning more times than he loses. Basically, his best killing moves would be the Rasengan variants, and Sasuke's got Susanoo.

As opposed to Naruto's KB I guess. It doesn't really matter since it's still a KB.

I'm not saying he doesn't but chances are he's going to win via a subtle genjutsu as opposed to his genjutsu knocking out his opponents like Itachi's Tsukiyomi. That doesn't mean he can't win it. It's all about how he uses them.

[UchihaHunter]

...I wasn't saying that he didn't know Kage Bunshin, we already knew that...I'm just curious as to why it said Kakashi style when he had the massive number, instead of Tajuu Kage Bunshin or just regular Kage Bunshin. What is the difference?

[jdw]

I am not convinced that Sasuke's MS arsenal is able to seal this for him:

1. Susanoo could likely be opened up by Sage Mode Oodama Rasengan.
2. Amaterasu can be avoided by maintaining a decent distance.
3. Sasuke's genjutsu is weak and Jiraiya knows how to break out of genjutsu.

I doubt Sasuke's chidori could outdo Jiraiya's rasengan in a clash (it is possible that it ends as a tie if the two clash, but I'd like to think Jiraiya's ordinary rasengan tops Naruto's, but you never know).

All in all, I have not voted yet. I think it is a close match though.

[M3J]

If we can guess from what Naruto said when he hit Sasuke with a rasengan to test something at Valley of the End, then it's likely chidori is weaker than rasengan. Since Jiraiya could be considered more of an expert in rasengan than Naruto, it's likely his rasengan will overpower Sasuke's chidori.

I'm also confident that Jiraiya would be able to break out of Sasuke's Tsukuyomi even if he wasn't good at dispelling genjutsu, since he has the basics down and the chakra to do so. Susano'o is a major problem since if it launches its arrow, it'll be too fast for Jiraiya unless possibly he's in Sage Mode. Base mode Jiraiya never showed Kakashi's speed, who needed to warp away the arrows. It'd take Minato, Raikage, or Rikudou Mode Naruto to even be fast enough to get out of range.