Who killed Senju Hashirama?

[DaHeroic1]

The Hashirama timeline is very confusing as alot of stuff doesn't really connect. Kushina stated that Mito's seal almost broke during child birth and obviously as she didn't have the kyubbi before the Madara Hashirama fight it had to have happened afterwards. She wouldn't have gone to the valley of the ends pregnant. Then on this page http://www.mangareader.net/93-54942-...apter-500.html Hiruzen speaks as if he was their when Mito gave birth but we know the Madara Hashirama fight took place right when the village was established when Hiruzen was a little kid. Mabey Hashirama did live a good ten years after his fight or i'm jus thinking to much about this right now. After the fight thanks to his wounds he may have let Tobirama take over as Hokage as he felt he lost alot of power.

[lordHokage]

The Uchihas could be responsible for the lack of Senjus in the village. Anything is possible with them. If Hashirama died in war, he probably lived long enough to see his grandkids. I wonder how many sidling Tsunade has.

[Arrakesh]

Regarding the lack of Senju, it's just as someone said, they died out. Migled with other clans too much, once Konoha was founded, so it's easy to find a Senju descendent and hard to find a Senju pure blood. On the other hand the Uzumaki clan remained closed, maintaining the all the clan's special abilities like huge chakra pool and longevity..

[Rikudou King]

If the Uchihas were so loyal to the future growth development of Konoha, where were they when Tobi invaded their so-called beloved village? Why didn't they defend the village against the invasion of Tobi? Itachi told Sasuke that their beloved parents and Uchiha Madara were behind the attack but Tobi said that the elders were responsible for the attack not him. I take Itachi's word over Tobi anyday. If the Uchihas love their village so much, why would they plan a coup d etat during Minato's reign? I think the Uchihas were so pissed off when Hashirama not only defeated the beloved leader but killed him as well, and leaving the village was never in their best interests, so they stay and begin to plan future attacks on Konoha.

The Uchihas not being around when Madara attacked the village isn't proof that they were working with Madara. We don't know why they weren't around, but they definitely weren't because of Madara. Because if they were with Madara, wouldn't they have helped him or more importantly, removed their beloved children out of the village they were planning on destroying? the fact that Itachi and Sasuke were in the village at the time shows that they had nothing to do with Madara's attack. Itachi never said anything about their parents being behind any attack. The sole one mention was Madara. And the Uchihas didn't start plotting their coup til years after Minato, when they began to suffer under the segregation and surveillance by the Konoha higher ups. It was roughly sixty years between Madara's death and the Uchiha coup. Would they have really waited that long if they were planning revenge? Especially through three wars when the village probably would have been a much easier target to take over due to most of the ninja forces gone.

[lordHokage]

The Uchihas not being around when Madara attacked the village isn't proof that they were working with Madara. We don't know why they weren't around, but they definitely weren't because of Madara. Because if they were with Madara, wouldn't they have helped him or more importantly, removed their beloved children out of the village they were planning on destroying? the fact that Itachi and Sasuke were in the village at the time shows that they had nothing to do with Madara's attack. Itachi never said anything about their parents being behind any attack. The sole one mention was Madara. And the Uchihas didn't start plotting their coup til years after Minato, when they began to suffer under the segregation and surveillance by the Konoha higher ups. It was roughly sixty years between Madara's death and the Uchiha coup. Would they have really waited that long if they were planning revenge? Especially through three wars when the village probably would have been a much easier target to take over due to most of the ninja forces gone.

Except for Sasuke and Itachi, every other clan member was noticeably absent during the attack. What kind of mother will leave her baby behind? Both Kushina and Itachi's flashbacks was believable, Tobi's flashback was not.

[Arrakesh]

Regarding the Police Force I got this from the wiki:

The Konoha Military Police Force previously consisted of mostly Uchiha clan members before the massacre. Although it was first believed that an Uchiha ancestor had founded the organisation, due to the Uchiha crest being part of the organisation's symbol, in truth it was founded by the Second Hokage. He handed it to the Uchiha clan as a sign of trust and good faith towards the Uchiha. Madara suggested, however, that this was just a method of distancing the Uchiha from taking part in the governing of Konoha. Few members also considered that this was the motive, and tried to rebel as a result. It is unknown what happened to the organisation after Itachi massacred the clan.

It seems that since the beginning Uchiha clan has felt as second rate citizens in Konoha, so they had plenty of reasons to resent the village...

[Rikudou King]

Except for Sasuke and Itachi, every other clan member was noticeably absent during the attack. What kind of mother will leave her baby behind? Both Kushina and Itachi's flashbacks was believable, Tobi's flashback was not.

One who didn't expect or know that the village would be attacked by a giant demon fox. The only Uchihas we know for a fact weren't around during the attack was their mother and father. We don't know the status of anyone else. Madara's flashback is the only one that gives us actual info on them during that time, but regardless of who you choose to believe, none of the flashbacks imply that their parents or anyone else in the Uchiha clan had anything to do with Madara or his plans.

Again, there's really nothing to suggest that the Uchiha clan held any harsh feeling towards Konoha for Madara's death, especially when they spend 50+ years helping Konoha and serving under three Hokages.

[lordHokage]

One who didn't expect or know that the village would be attacked by a giant demon fox. The only Uchihas we know for a fact weren't around during the attack was their mother and father. We don't know the status of anyone else. Madara's flashback is the only one that gives us actual info on them during that time, but regardless of who you choose to believe, none of the flashbacks imply that their parents or anyone else in the Uchiha clan had anything to do with Madara or his plans.

Again, there's really nothing to suggest that the Uchiha clan held any harsh feeling towards Konoha for Madara's death, especially when they spend 50+ years helping Konoha and serving under three Hokages.

If I didn't know any better, I will probably say that you're a true believer in Tobi's load of crap. Where were Sasuke's aunt and uncle during the attack? Both Kushina and Itachi's flashbacks was put in motion to contradict Tobi's lies.

[Rikudou King]

Who knows where his aunt and uncle were. It wasn't as if we were shown the entire Uchiha complex. We only saw Itachi holding Sasuke and commenting about his parents being gone. The only thing that Itachi and Kushina contradicts is Madara controlling the Kyuubi, which was already obvious. Nothing else has been contradicted. If anything, they help confirm why the Uchiha clan was suspected after the Kyuubi attack.

[lordHokage]

Who knows where his aunt and uncle were. It wasn't as if we were shown the entire Uchiha complex. We only saw Itachi holding Sasuke and commenting about his parents being gone. The only thing that Itachi and Kushina contradicts is Madara controlling the Kyuubi, which was already obvious. Nothing else has been contradicted. If anything, they help confirm why the Uchiha clan was suspected after the Kyuubi attack.

Until Kishimoto reveal that mystery person in coffin number 6, I will take Tobi's words as a grain of salt. I do believe that the Uchihas had something to do with Hashirama's death.

[Rikudou King]

Well even if you take Madara's words with a grain of salt, that really doesn't change there's nothing to imply that the Uchihas had anything to do with Hashirama's death. If they had had anything to do with it, surely Tobirama wouldn't have allowed them to be or associated with one on his team. It wouldn't have taken 50+ years for them to start planning a coup if they had truly wanted to take over or for Danzo and co to start plotting against them, especially since they were under watch that whole time. There's just no conflict between the Uchihas and the rest of Konoha to think they would do something as out there as kill Hashirama, especially over something like revenge of a guy they themselves considered a villain and abandoned.

[lordHokage]

Well even if you take Madara's words with a grain of salt, that really doesn't change there's nothing to imply that the Uchihas had anything to do with Hashirama's death. If they had had anything to do with it, surely Tobirama wouldn't have allowed them to be or associated with one on his team. It wouldn't have taken 50+ years for them to start planning a coup if they had truly wanted to take over or for Danzo and co to start plotting against them, especially since they were under watch that whole time. There's just no conflict between the Uchihas and the rest of Konoha to think they would do something as out there as kill Hashirama, especially over something like revenge of a guy they themselves considered a villain and abandoned.

Since the Senjus brothers and Madara founded Konoha on peaceful terms, it wouldn't be in Konoha's best interest if Tobirama started a civil war. If the old saying is true, keep your friends close and your enemies closer that may explain why the Uchihas were in charge of Konoha Military Police Force because Tobirama and friends didn't trust them. Under Danzou's watch, the Uchihas secretly plan Kyuubi's attack. There was always conflict between the Uchihas and the rest of Konoha, Kakashi mocking Obito's clan name was an example.

Hashirama and Madara conflict of interests created a whole new identity for Tobi, I am Uchiha Madara. Rikudou Sennin had two sons and their descendants, the Uchihas and the Senjus were at war with each other. I smell a rat and this is too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. Tobi is all about propaganding himself about the Uchihas and the Senju's history.

[Rikudou King]

It would be in far worst interest for Konoha to allow a group willing to kill a Hokage to stick around. They wouldn't just let a rebellious group hang around and plot the downfall of Konoha. Doing so would cause even greater damage then confronting them and fighting a civil war. Tobirama didn't put them in charge of the Military Police because he didn't trust them, he put them in charge to give them a place of power and ensure another Madara wouldn't rise up. If Tobirama truly distrusted them, why would he go into a possible dangerous situation with one? The Uchihas had nothing to do with planning the Kyuubi attack and there was no conflict between them and Konoha. The Uchiha clan was considered a clan of geniuses and elites. Even Kakashi mentions this to Obito.

The current rivalry between the Uchiha and Senju were all due solely to Madara. There was no conflict between them when Madara was out of the picture. In fact, they were able to work together just fine.

[lordHokage]

It would be in far worst interest for Konoha to allow a group willing to kill a Hokage to stick around. They wouldn't just let a rebellious group hang around and plot the downfall of Konoha. Doing so would cause even greater damage then confronting them and fighting a civil war. Tobirama didn't put them in charge of the Military Police because he didn't trust them, he put them in charge to give them a place of power and ensure another Madara wouldn't rise up. If Tobirama truly distrusted them, why would he go into a possible dangerous situation with one? The Uchihas had nothing to do with planning the Kyuubi attack and there was no conflict between them and Konoha. The Uchiha clan was considered a clan of geniuses and elites. Even Kakashi mentions this to Obito.

The current rivalry between the Uchiha and Senju were all due solely to Madara. There was no conflict between them when Madara was out of the picture. In fact, they were able to work together just fine.

Do you believe that Madara died by Hashirama's hands or he lived to see another day and if so, did the rivalry continue or was Tobi telling the truth.

It was not in Konoha best interest to allow Sasuke to live in peace knowing what his clansman did and if Sarutobi was like his sensei, we know why Tobirama allow the Uchihas to go on living, to maintain peace. I disagree with you that Tobirama placing the Uchihas in charge to ensure another Madara uprising, well that backfired. If the Uchihas had nothing to do with planning Kyuubi attack, why were they so noticeable absence?

[shafagh]

Do you believe that Madara died by Hashirama's hands or he lived to see another day and if so, did the rivalry continue or was Tobi telling the truth.

It was not in Konoha best interest to allow Sasuke to live in peace knowing what his clansman did and if Sarutobi was like his sensei, we know why Tobirama allow the Uchihas to go on living, to maintain peace. I disagree with you that Tobirama placing the Uchihas in charge to ensure another Madara uprising, well that backfired. If the Uchihas had nothing to do with planning Kyuubi attack, why were they so noticeable absence?

so you say uchiha clan was behind of QB's attack !?
and you can explain why they don't attacked to Kohoha in that night !?
I don't think they feared than Sarutobi and Minato ...
and you can explain why Tobi helped Itachi to massacred Uchiha clan !?

in this manga we never see anything from uchiha clan ( Sasuke is only 1 person ) but I don't know why many reader hate them ( maybe because they hate Sasuke ) ...
Edo tenssi was created by senjo/konoha's leader , and now , all of ninja world suffer by this cowardly Jutsu .
I wonder why Tsunade and all of ninjas in alliance army ( especially Konoha ninjas ) talked about uchiha hatred and why they never say anything about Hokage's Jutsu !?
why they don't talk about Pain and how Nagato become Pain !?
why they don't talk about Orochimaru !?
why they don't talk about Danzo !?
and why they don't talk about the fact that Tobi , Sasuke and Kabuto were leaf's ninjas !?

(sorry ; I forget that Naruto is a Konoha ninja and he want become next Hokage ...)

and if all ninja world ( even all of Konoha ninjas ) separated Uchiha clan form Konoha , why Uchihas must keep their loyalty to konoha and fight for them against QB !?

Tobirama didn't put them in charge of the Military Police because he didn't trust them, he put them in charge to give them a place of power and ensure another Madara wouldn't rise up. If Tobirama truly distrusted them, why would he go into a possible dangerous situation with one?

I think Tobirama created Edo Tenssi because he can't control Uchihas like his brother ... after all Uchihas haven't any special seal to deal with ET ; that mean Tobirama never trusted to Uchihas ...
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we know Uzumaki Mito can sensed people's hatred ; so she can sensed uchiha's hatred too ... that mean uchihas can't doing anything against Hashirama in Konoha ( ex : poisoned him ; assassinated him and etc )